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X-wing wave 7

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17 Apr 2015 19:32 - 17 Apr 2015 19:33 #201005 by lj1983
X-wing wave 7 was created by lj1983
many things announced at starwars celebration among them wave 7

Hounds tooth, khiraxz fighter, k-wing, tie punisher (Interdictor)

Large base scum, scum mainline fighter (xwing like stats)

Heavy bomber for rebels w/turret
Advanced tie bomber for imps.

Looks like this is the ordnance fix wave

mobile.twitter.com/teamcovenant
Last edit: 17 Apr 2015 19:33 by lj1983.

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17 Apr 2015 19:35 - 17 Apr 2015 19:36 #201006 by lj1983
Replied by lj1983 on topic X-wing wave 7
From the FFG forums

TIE: Punisher
Attack: 2
Agility: 1
Hull: 6
Shields: 3
(Target lock, focus, boost)

Kihraxz
Attack: 3
Agility: 2
Hull: 4
Shields: 1
(Target lock, focus)

K wing
Attack: 2
Agility: 1
Hull: 5
Shields: 4
(Target lock, focus, and a new action)

Hounds Tooth:
Attack: 3
Agility: 1
Hull: 6
Shields: 6
(Target lock, focus)
Last edit: 17 Apr 2015 19:36 by lj1983.
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17 Apr 2015 19:50 #201007 by Hex Sinister
Replied by Hex Sinister on topic X-wing wave 7
Great scoop! Drool...

Hounds Toof has flavor. This one I expected to see since it's been shown in Armada. The rest of the stuff is all a surprise (to me).

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20 Apr 2015 08:34 #201075 by edulis
Replied by edulis on topic X-wing wave 7
I am most interested in the Hound's Tooth. We have only one other large ship with a front arch only, so I am curious to see what other tricks it will bring to keep it interesting. From the look of it I figured it would have a strong hull and weak shield, but 6 and 6 is impressive.

It will be interesting to see what sort of 'fixes' they come up with for missiles.

There seems to be some hate brewing for this wave over in the FFG forums. I personally think the TIE punisher is pretty awesome looking-Includes a built in boost huh? I don't have mush opinion on the K-wing (curious on the new action) or the hutt fighter.

I also wonder of we will see S-turns on the K-wing and Punisher?

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20 Apr 2015 12:46 #201114 by fastbilly1
Replied by fastbilly1 on topic X-wing wave 7
Gotta have that flying stapler.

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20 Apr 2015 19:37 - 20 Apr 2015 19:37 #201143 by Disgustipater
Replied by Disgustipater on topic X-wing wave 7
FFG posted the announcement article for Wave 7.

The Hound's Tooth having a Z-95 escape pod is pretty damn cool.
The SLAM action is going to be interesting, even if it has nothing to do with ramming other ships.
Cluster Bombs look fun.
With two bombers in this wave, as well as a 2 point upgrade that doubles all of your ordnance, I sure hope there's a way to drop more than 1 bomb per turn. Or maybe that is the role of the Cluster Bombs.
Last edit: 20 Apr 2015 19:37 by Disgustipater.

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20 Apr 2015 21:46 - 20 Apr 2015 22:15 #201148 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic X-wing wave 7
I am not here to add to the hate out there for Wave 7. I have no "canon" hang-ups nor do I care that this or that ship was not included. Nevertheless, rant incoming...

So, I'm a fan of X-Wing but the ordnance thing has progressively gnawed at me since the release of Wave 3, when each faction received a support ship (Shuttle and HWK) and the Rebels got the flexible B-Wing, while the Imperials got the TIE Bomber, which is utterly dependent on ordnance. Ordnance, of course, has been next-to-useless since the game was released for a number of reasons:
- Maintaining the right distance to execute it properly makes it less flexible than base weapons.
- Shields often neuter its impact.
- The preceding two factors make almost all of it overpriced and ships designed to carry it also overpriced.

FFG has been making a solid effort to fix it without simply doing rules alterations or card edits. However, they acknowledged the problem with the Chardaan Refit, which was supposed to bring the A-Wing's cost back into line by eliminating its ordnance capability... which reinforced the fact that ordnance has been bad. They added Munitions Failsafe in Wave 4, which costs an extra point, thus doing nothing to solve the problem of ordnance in general being overcosted AND still being neutered by shields, since Failsafe only counts hits, not damage. So, the Bomber has been largely unplayed except for gimmick lists trying to take advantage of its significantly higher hull value (in direct contrast to the running theme of Imperials, which is agility and lower hull value (e.g. TIE swarms.)) But the fact is that the ship's dial is so bad that it's never been anything more than an ordnance platform, which is its original design, so it kinda follows. After the initial attempts, I only ever played it as a durable Target Lock placer for a Defender/Phantom list.

Now we have Wave 7, which looks really cool. I'm geeked about Bossk and the Kihraxz for S&V and the K-Wing at least has the interesting facet of being a small-based turret ship and has the new SLAM action, which was also clearly invented to solve some of the ordnance problems. So the Rebels finally get a missile/torpedo platform with an action built in to make it work. And the Imperials get... a bigger, costlier Bomber.

The new TIE Punisher is Attack 2, so subpar for a heavy, slow ship, just like the Bomber. It's Agility 1, so thematic, but even worse than the Bomber. It has the same hull and 3 shields this time, so even more durable (since, as the B-Wing from wave 3 taught us, shields will always- ALWAYS -be better than hull which is subject to being critically hit.) It can TL and focus, like the Bomber, but instead of the SLAM action that the K-Wing will use to drop bombs and line up missile shots, the Punisher can Boost and yet not even Barrel Roll, like the Bomber can.

It's a bigger, slower Bomber with more ordnance slots that can now be double shots for 2 MORE POINTS with Extra Munitions. If you spend 4 points on your Proton Torpedoes or your Assault Missiles or Concussion Missiles, you can now spend 2 MORE points to double their ineffectiveness. And you have 3 shields to take more hits from ships that will completely outfly you as you vainly try to line up shots with your big, slow platform, which means that you're likely to have wasted even more points without ever contributing anything to the fight except to be a target that draws your opponent's fire away.... which is why I used a 16-point Scimitar to do just that, while my Phantom dodged and my Defender K-turned.

Clearly, ordnance has issues and, clearly, FFG has been trying to resolve those issues. Rather than edit cards, they've been adding cards to expansions because, after all, they're in this to make money and just doing an edit doesn't generate it for them. But the proper approach might have been to reduce the costs of weapons that people don't want to use, rather than increasing them. And the way to increase use of the Bomber might have been to target upgrades to that ship (like the TIE Advanced and the A-Wing), rather than take up the Imperial slot of a new wave with a bigger Bomber that doesn't even have access to the new action type that was designed to improve the use of ordnance.

This is starting to remind me of GW's obsession with Chaos having repercussions. "If you truck with Chaos, you suffer the consequences!" was their slogan, so they'd tie all kinds of drawbacks and random effects to the cool units in the Chaos armies. And, of course, no one would touch them. So the next time they'd do an army book revision, they'd dump all that stuff and make an efficient army until a few years down the road when some designer would say: "Remember when we had all that cool, thematic, random stuff that made it feel like you were messing with demonic powers if you played this army? We should put that stuff back in!" and there would apparently be no one in the studio who could show him an army list or point to the tanking sales of Chaos from a few years earlier and say: "No. No, we really shouldn't."

Making stuff that sucks more expensive is rarely a good approach because cost is usually part of why it sucks. I really think that card edits may, in fact, be the way to go with most of the weapons that they've released to date (i.e. eliminate all range restrictions and drop everything by at least one point.) Taking up a whole wave for the Imperials by adding a ship with double slots of all the weapons they don't want to use and can't use competitively really isn't.

I'm a little pissed that I can't use my TIE Advanced without buying a $100 capital ship that I will never, ever use, since I just play the standard game. I'm now a little more pissed that I can't use my TIE Bombers without spending even more money on other ships in the same way that I'm pissed that FFG's solution to ordnance being flawed is to spend even MORE points on it in the game. So, yeah, there's something wrong with Wave 7 and it has nothing to do with canon or story or anything like that.

/rant (Sorry.)
Last edit: 20 Apr 2015 22:15 by Jackwraith.
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21 Apr 2015 03:51 #201156 by Hex Sinister
Replied by Hex Sinister on topic X-wing wave 7
I enjoyed your rant!

Extra Munitions does seem a rather odd design. You do save points but is it enough? Basically, two protons now cost 6 instead of 8. Two Advanced Protons cost 8 instead of 12. Flechette torps get zero discount. I don't think the "more you buy, the more you save" makes sense for reasons you mentioned. As a player, I would really love to field fully loaded bombers with a variable loadout for different tactical situations. Simply because it's cool and uh... fun. I wonder why they didn't just make the load close to free and reduce bomber primary attacks to 1. That at least solves the bomber aspect.
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21 Apr 2015 07:21 #201157 by lj1983
Replied by lj1983 on topic X-wing wave 7
the biggest weakness for ordnance is action economy. it takes one action to pull a TL, then you fire with minimal dice modification. so far these don't change that fact. some of the new ordnance might be more cost effective (and that is by definition power creep) or some of the other cards in this wave might help out the action economy of missles and torps. but so far, extra munitions is fun, but doesn't really fix anything.
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21 Apr 2015 08:14 #201158 by edulis
Replied by edulis on topic X-wing wave 7
Am I reading the extra munitions card correctly in that you get an extra shot for each equipped bomb, missile and torp? So if I have proton torps and a proximity bomb and a homing missile on my bomber I now have 2 of each for an extra 2 points?

JackWraith- don't forget that the new TIE bomber has a system slot. This can allow you to have the upgrade to give you free target locks (fire-control system I think?). That will be huge for a well-equipped bomber!

I am very intrigued with the dotted line on the Hound's tooth. Does it have a rear Arch that covers its entire rear? And I agree that the escape Z-95 is pretty cool.

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21 Apr 2015 08:55 - 21 Apr 2015 08:56 #201159 by lj1983
Replied by lj1983 on topic X-wing wave 7
yes, pay the 2 points (and take a torpedo slot....slave 1 title anyone?) and get an extra shot out of each equipped bomb/missle/torp card.

so two APTs would cost 8 pts, rather than 12, two Proton torps 6 rather than 8.

FCS helps alot..doesn't help Tie Bombers at all.

we've got rules for aux arcs already. It looks like the Hounds tooth will be able to fire out of a 180 degree arc in the front, except for secondaries, which will be limited to the normal forward firing arc. also other abilities like tactician, will be limited to the regular front firing arc. actually, they shouldn't be limited, since right now the Firespray can use tactician out of their rear arc.
escape z95 is awesome.
Last edit: 21 Apr 2015 08:56 by lj1983.

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21 Apr 2015 09:03 #201161 by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic X-wing wave 7
The SLAM action wasn't added to the K-Wing purely to boost its bombing effectiveness, it's a key component of its design when reading its background.

But good rant, and agree ordnance should be better. Still, we use it occasionally in casual play.

I wish ordnance was still difficult to hit with, but did a truckload of damage. Like double the hits that make it through.
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21 Apr 2015 09:46 - 21 Apr 2015 10:25 #201165 by edulis
Replied by edulis on topic X-wing wave 7
Double post.
Last edit: 21 Apr 2015 10:25 by edulis.

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21 Apr 2015 10:20 #201168 by edulis
Replied by edulis on topic X-wing wave 7
Also my squinty eyes see a modification with the punisher 'Twin Ion Engines" that say TIE ONLY. Maybe any TIE? Not sure what it would do, but something I am interested in.

Also also- the top K-wing pilot "spend a shield to roll an extra attack dice, or roll one less attack dice to gain a shield"!

I am pretty excited for this Wave. I like Hound's Tooth way better than IG-88 ship (unless it had tractor beams) I look forward to flying Boba and Boosk together. Plus I like the TIE bomber and use them despite their flaws so any help I can get there is great, and I like the Punisher looks cool. As does the K-wing even thought I rarely play rebels.

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21 Apr 2015 10:24 #201169 by edulis
Replied by edulis on topic X-wing wave 7

lj1983 wrote:
we've got rules for aux arcs already. It looks like the Hounds tooth will be able to fire out of a 180 degree arc in the front, except for secondaries, which will be limited to the normal forward firing arc. also other abilities like tactician, will be limited to the regular front firing arc. actually, they shouldn't be limited, since right now the Firespray can use tactician out of their rear arc.
escape z95 is awesome.


So you think the firing arch is the front, I guess that makes sense, since it has those large back fins to hold lasers or what not.

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