Why hate on the TT?

After kinda getting back into the swing of playing Warhammer 40k over the last few weeks. It made me wonder why table top games aren't more popular to the ATers that hang out here. It seems for the most part people just don't really enjoy them as much. Not really sure why that is. I can see maybe not enjoying the painting/modeling aspect or perhaps the cost, but there are ways around those obstacles. Usually the games offer much the same appeal as AT board games at a bigger scale. Also there is all kinds of genres or complexities they can cover.

You want to run knights at elves - check. Shoot lasers at each other - check. Hunt down zombies with modern weapons - check.

The amount of strategy can range from dice fest 40k (just getting back into it I have no false conception about how "tactical" the rules are, I just wanna blow stuff up and laugh about it) to a very combo centric game of Warmachine to a super detailed space game where each shot and damage is tracked to specific areas.

So what keeps you out of playing tabletop games but doesn't stop you from dropping 100s of dollars and hours on board games? I find there is room for both.

Personally I'm lazy and want everything I need in just one box already put together and set up for me. I don't want to have to build multiple armies and balance them myself. Boardgames come in a all included little package ready to go.

IF I had time for both then hell yes but I just don't.

JonJacob wrote: Personally I'm lazy and want everything I need in just one box already put together and set up for me. I don't want to have to build multiple armies and balance them myself. Boardgames come in a all included little package ready to go.

That sums it up for me as well. I would also throw CCGs on that pile too.

Case in point I started painting my Space Hulk Marines when it came out. I'm not close to finished and I've yet to prime the Genestealers.

Nobody even writes about the stuff here. I asked about Dystopian Wars and got two replies.

There's a whole subgroup out there that paints Celts and Turks and Byzantines and charges them at each other with wild abandon. Ancients rules have been pretty stable for a couple of decades now. As best I can tell no one here has ever played.

S.

Well this is a board game site for one. Given there is more talk about music, video games and movies here than there is about minis games, which is a little odd.
But for me, it was the actual rules that put me off. I've not seen many with actual strategy. Unless you count min/maxing your army list, which I don't.
I do like Song of Blades and Heroes, Stargrunt and Piquet. And have a decent collection of painted 15mm fantasy and British Colonial figs but opponents are hard to find.

It's quite simple. Minis games tend to be 'lifestyle' games where it is the only game you play. If you are playing a minis game you are more interested in going to forums which specifically discuss that game to discuss it, rather than discussing it here.

People here tend to play a multitude of games and don't have as much time for lifestyle games as they tend to be older and with more commitments.

Tunnels and Trolls is ok...

Count me in the camp that is too busy, lazy, whatever to invest in either 40k or other table top games. I'd play them fully set up at a friends or a convention any day and that gives me the luxury of not having to buy, paint, assemble and tear down.

My group is a couple of weeks into a Mordheim campaign and we're having a blast. We've got Reiklanders and Middenhiemers (lap dogs of Ulric, the bastards are) trying to drag a cache of wyrdstone out of Mordheim, but the undead and skaven have secured it from us and are barreling on their way toward a victory. We're planning a longer campaign after this one as this short one is serving to bring old players up to speed and introduce the game to a few new guys.

Yes, these are lifestyle games. One of the guys in the group spent a weekend making a table for us to play on. Not a board. Not a piece of terrain. A table. Of course, we've built lots of terrain painted, our warbands, etc. It all looks fantastic in play. And we're playing this same game for consecutive weeks in a row. Seeing warbands rise and fall as well as getting a system down over multiple weeks is a breath of fresh air over the 'play it and leave it' nature of boardgames.

Not to say one is better than the other, but they are far different in scope. Likely why no one could speak to Sag's question about Dystopian Wars. Usually minis players are vested into one or two games/systems. No way do I have time to build and paint stuff for Mordheim as well as Dystopian Wars/Warmachine/etc. Only time and money for one. Boardgames, the barrier of entry is so much lower so we get a higher number of players to talk about them. What would be the point of discussing the nuances of Mordheim if no one here is playing it?

Boardgames, videogames, movies, music...all easy to consume and talk about. Minis games...need to go find others that have committed to the investment.

Da Bid Dabid wrote: I find there is room for both.

The short answer is that I don't. With a full time job and two kids and a non-gaming partner, I just don't. And that's pretty much it.

Seeing as I moved from being a full-time miniatures gamer to a full-time board gamer though I feel that I ought to answer more fully. Other than the time issue there are three keys reasons why I switched.

First GW are not a very user-friendly company. I don't like paying their ridiculous prices, and I don't like the manner in which things such as army book creep, banning non-GW models in store, major switches to army composition between editions, and the subtle division between models for more powerful troops being more expensive than core troops, encourage you to spend more than you should all the time. GW gamers complain about this stuff all the time and the response is always the same - if you don't like it, go play something else. So I did. And yes, I could have switched mini game systems but the time and cost of getting together an army of figures means that you have to find other gamers who are playing the same system as you - and that can be tough outside the GW family.

Second I've always been irritated by the way in which the majority of miniatures gamers treat painting and modelling as more important than the game. I don't mind painting and modelling but it's sometimes a chore, which gaming never is. And yet most clubs insist on or strongly encourage fully painted armies and tournaments hand out huge bonus points for painting and display which often determine the eventual winners.

Third - and this is kind of an extension of the above - I grew tired of the endless exploitable holes in mini gaming systems. When you're picking armies from a list - which is almost always the case with minis games - then there are always loopholes to exploit and people who will exploit them. There are also often a lot of rules errors or easy fixes in rules systems that never get looked at or improved because the figures are perceived as more important than the game. I'd rather play a relatively watertight, balanced set of rules.

It was actually Warhammer head honcho Gav Thorpe who persuaded me to switch. I started a thread on a warhammer forum complaining about these very three things and he popped up out of nowhere and said "sounds like you'd be better off playing board games". And I realised he was right.

Here's my resaons:


1. It's expensive
2. I can't paint worth shit
3. The imprecision in a game system that demands precision (i.e., the ruler) is maddening. "Did you bump him?" "No." "Ah, you're short a fraction of an inch." "No I'm not!" "You moved him too far!" "Nuh-uh!" "You didn't put him back down exactly as he was." Argggghhh


I think miniatures games in the hands of expert painters are beautiful, and I appreciate the you kill/I kill gameplay, but it's all wrapped in a package that I can't get into at all.