Hearthstone Players!

PWS is used to make sick Wild Pyromancer plays, duh. Everyone is going nuts about Purify. And Hey, it's not good. But it's not the end of the world or anything. Priest is in bad shape--maybe deservedly so, as Priest is SO GODDAMNED GOOD in Wild it's not even funny. Well, it's a little funny, especially if your "Wow" BM game is strong.

As noted, the problem with Purify is that it compares pretty poorly to Silence: 0 mana, "Silence a minion." Two more mana for a card and narrowing the targeting to your creatures is... that is not good. Maybe they thought Frozen stuff would matter more? Or Humility effects? I don't know. But for everyone too kill themselves over this is a bit much.

Edit: [Another long diatribe about Priest design and popular perception.]

Since I'm supposed to be one of the actual "moderators" here, I'll just stay out of this thread in the future.

Jackwraith wrote: Edit: [Another long diatribe about Priest design and popular perception.]

Since I'm supposed to be one of the actual "moderators" here, I'll just stay out of this thread in the future.

I don't think that's necessary, it's not like you're threatening bans or making ad hominem attacks because people are currently enjoying HS more than you are. I would have liked to read your Priest rant. First of all, I like cranky CCG player rants , and second, I like reading your opinions since you have your MTG experience to put things in perspective for relatively inexperienced CCG players like myself.

Anyway, putting aside the issue of how representative the vocal and hardcore HS players are as compared to the fan base as a whole, Purify is a miscalculation on several levels. As has already been mentioned, it would be barely playable at one mana due to the "own minion" restriction, and it requires board presence to be used.

However, another issue that's not being mentioned as much, if at all, is how this card is a poor choice to offer to new/casual players. Not only is Silence a little-used and marginalized effect, the idea of Silencing one's own minion is always going to be overwhelmingly perceived as a negative thing, and any deck that uses Purify successfully is by its very nature not going to be newb-friendly.

Blizzard is so afraid of turning off its casual players that it looks like they've bent over backwards with Purify and turned off everyone (ok, fine, I could be wrong about the casuals). They're so afraid of Priests ruining everyone's fun by stealing their cards and messing with their board, yet the only way to beat OTK Warrior right now is to hope they draw badly, and Warriors have the most ridiculously OP and "unfun" removals in the game right now in Shield Slam, Brawl and Execute (and it's many enablers). Whatever...

I appreciate it. Just having my opinions tossed in with the perceived hand-waving hysteria when I spend a lot of time trying to buttress my arguments with, you know... facts and experience is irritating enough for me to get pretty heated in here. I know that the Fortress has always been more freewheeling on things like that but I'd rather not raise the temperature of the water when I'm supposed to be cooling it (if needed, which it rarely is.)

In short, Priest has a central design flaw and has had one since beta. They covered it up by implementing all kinds of card theft effects in Priest, but the fact of the matter is that Hearthstone is a fast game. The mana mechanic that makes it a consistent increase for each player ensures that. Priest, OTOH, is a slow class. Its basic premise is stalling with minions until it can assert control. Most of its class cards are oriented around that central idea, so whereas another "slow" class like Warrior can shift gears into fast mode with weapons, Priest's "fast mode" is shadow magic... which completely belies the properties of its class cards. The Warrior's minions giving more armor is fine, because he's using his face to remove things. The Priest using Shadowform to remove stuff means that he can't use Northshire or save his fat-assed minions anymore. That's why they made ETS and why Auchenai remains a staple (but which smart players can often use against you by refusing to kill it.) At this point, Purify is just insult to injury and that's what people are reacting to. You can see that the dev team thinks that Barnes is going to be a great Priest card because it would work with Purify... except that you don't want to silence your 1/1 Ysera because then she's just a 4/12 and silencing your 1/1 Cabal is fine, but then you just took away an often hugely effective (If often way too late) battlecry to get a vanilla 3/4 and 4/5 on turn 6, plus a card. That's not a game-swinging turn.

The other thing is the line of complete bullshit being laid by the dev team. They're saying that they don't see a problem and yet Priest is the only class you don't see in the upper half of the latter, is the only class with zero decks in recent pro tournaments (even Rogue and Hunter have a couple), and which is regarded by the pro scene, regular Priest streamers (Noxious) and competitors (Zetalot) alike as not worthwhile. Then Donais said he was really excited about the new Priest cards coming in Karazhan and we get... this. I mean, I knew Mike from his days playing and judging MTG in Detroit. He's a straight shooter, but I guess sometimes you toe the company line, right? And, really, Onyx Bishop? A 5-mana 3/4 that does the Resurrect effect? Why would paying 5-mana (again, way too late) for the same effect that people already regard as unplayable make it seem any better? You can't play hard control, because if you've already played a Doomsayer that's what you might get back. You can't play it in Dragon because Wymrest's and Whelp's effects are battlecries. Plus, you're adding RNG to a control class, which is antithetical to the concept.

What Priest needs more than anything are early minions with game impact. Priest of the Feast is designed to be played in a spell-heavy deck, like Mage. The problem is two-fold: Mage spells are removal, effects that actually delay the game (freeze), and card draw (AI and Tome.) That's how the deck functions. Priest has little to none of that AND it needs good early minions to stem the tide, which limits the number of spells you can bloat your curve with. If you're not playing Dragon, Priest has one (1) one-drop that it can no longer keep on the board and it can no longer use for card draw because of an inability to keep anything else on the board. If you're not playing Dragon, Priest has one (1) two-drop that doesn't impact the board state at all, since it's a Discover card. Priest has one (1) 3-drop, Dragon or no, that is a vanilla 3/3 that makes future draws cheaper. Good luck keeping that on the board. Mage, in contrast, has 1 of the best 1-drops in the game that serves the spell-heavy motif, 3 2-drops that can be slotted into any Mage deck, two of which serve the spell-heavy motif, and 4(!) 3=drops, three of which serve the spell-heavy motif. In all honesty, Priest of the Feast would do well in a Mage deck, since the class lacks easy healing methods. Priest does not lack for those at all. And that's the problem.

Good point about the poor nature of Purify for new players, too. Didn't even think of that.

Meta: Don't bow out of the conversation. You're not a line judge in tennis. You are a participant that can delete spam. This thread will die for sure in your absence. I tossed in your argument, perhaps unfairly, because I read the headlines at /r/Hearthstone and came her and read your piece and thought they were the same. I mean, folks wants petitions and stuff--it's ridiculous.

One of my first rares (I got into the game a little after Naxx) was Ancient Watcher and the first deck I laddered with over the next couple of months was Silence-based (mostly Ironbeak Owls, though, but I digress). So, don't overestimate the abilities of newer players to grasp the cards' nuances--you work with what you got.

Zetalot is still doing it with Priest--it's just really hard. He is as good a Priest player as there is and he barely managed to make Legend last season--it was around the 24th or so. He's taken Priest to Rank 1 Legend at least once and made Legend pn EU and NA multiple times playing only Priest. He knows what he's doing and it is still doable. Mind you, he is of the "Dragons are boring" crowd, and doesn't really explore that option, which may be viable. He plays Control and dabbles in other schools. But h'es the one that really defined the modern Control Priest deck that saw a lot of success pre-rotation (Deathlords, double Entomb--remember Kolento shitting on Entomb?)

The issue is the mid-game. Priest can win the early game with Wild Pyro/Northshire/Injured Blademaster. Priest can win the long game with Entombing your good stuff and out healing in the fatigue "race" with Justicar. But mid-game--when players are dropping 4-, 5-, 6-drops: Priest has no means to deal with that right now. Time was, they had Lightbomb or the threat of it, to contain your overextension. You couldn't cough up 12+ mana of creatures for like 7 damage and then have Lightbomb wipe them. So you played a little conservatively and then Priest has time to set up and deal with things. Right now--honestly--what's the downside of playing Azure Drake into Dark Arakkoa into Twin Emperor Vek'lor? Priest is just not equipped to deal with this anymore except by trading--and they trade what? A Thaurissan maybe? Justicar (Wrath'd, amirite)? There's no way for them to poke down big butts and see the rewards of Lightbomb clearing your board and leaving theirs. I think the Priest card wheel right now is: Good, Slow, Situational: Pick two.

Another concern for Priest is the prevalence of OTK decks out there. OTK and pseudo-OTK (double-C'Thun Warrior is a rough go--you can only take 18-20 plips so many times) decks are the anathema of Priest. They can't get over 30 life, and they can't do anything on your turn except watch. So if you got those Thaurissan ticks on the correct cards, or you drew Worgen and friends, they need to count on you making a mistake like making a Taunt they can steal. Priest can build a deck that wrecks Zoo and other weenies. Priest can build a deck that kills the Reno'est of Reno decks. But they can't build a deck that can Ladder and you face those decks one after the other.

jeb wrote: [One of my first rares (I got into the game a little after Naxx) was Ancient Watcher and the first deck I laddered with over the next couple of months was Silence-based (mostly Ironbeak Owls, though, but I digress). So, don't overestimate the abilities of newer players to grasp the cards' nuances--you work with what you got.

Right, but even newer players will recognize the fact that Priest already has a Silence card which is more versatile than Purify. Need to stop a Ysera who can't be affected by either Shadow Word? Silence. Now she's "just" a 4/12. You can't do that with Purify. And even if you do have Ancient Watcher, you're still spending two cards for the same price as one Yeti. And how many other cards in the game are you going to want to play that are preternaturally useless like Watcher with the presumption that you'll draw into your Purify? And these are the kinds of decks that you want newer players to glom onto with the idea that they'll be so successful playing the worst class in the game that they'll keep playing HS? I can't even count the number of holes in that premise.

jeb wrote: [Zetalot is still doing it with Priest--it's just really hard.

But that's part of my point about the devs. Their assertion is that they have the stats that show that some players are succeeding with Priest and, therefore, everything's OK. But one of the best players in the world succeeding should not be the benchmark about whether a class is working properly. No game designer thinks that because one player was able to win his game that it's a successful design. By the same token, no game designer should think that because only one player discovered his degenerate combo, that it's OK to leave it. The devs have admitted before that they've been wrong about the impact of certain cards (Everyone get in here!) because their testing team of dozens can't possibly match the testing power of millions. So, the vast majority of the millions of players have currently confirmed that Priest sucks ass in 2 out of 3 game modes, but the devs response is to say that people are somehow not getting it? WTF is that? It reminds me of the early days on the WoW fora where people were' talking about how the C'Thun encounter (to use a currently relevant example) was impossible to win in Ahn'Qiraj. The devs actually fought back until discovering that no guild in the world could beat it.

jeb wrote: [The issue is the mid-game.

I don't agree. The problem is more systemic than that. Let's use a recent example: C'Thun Warrior vs C'Thun Priest. Despite the fact that the Priest hero power is seen as marginally better than the Warrior's, the Warrior deck is vastly superior. There are a lot of factors involved (not least the fact that the Warrior deck contains more active and less situational cards (Execute, Shield Slam, weapons)) but we can narrow it down to a comparison of two: Ancient Shieldbearer and Twilight Darkmender. To wit: It's almost never a bad idea to play Shieldbearer on curve if you've gotten C'Thun to 10 because even if you're at full health, the Shieldbearer has just improved your health by 33%. Contrast with the Darkmender, where you often don't want to play it on curve if you've played well/been lucky to that point because if you've only taken 5 damage, the other 5 healing is wasted. Furtthermore, Shieldbearer enables other active Warrior cards like Shield Slam but the Darkmender does nothing but prolong your presence in the game where you hope to draw your win condition. Even more galling, the Warrior card can't be eliminated by things like Shadow Strike, whereas the Darkmender can be. The very essence of Priest play- keeping minions durable -is belied by the cards they're releasing. But what you should really take away from that is that Priest cards are defying the concept of tempo in a wholly tempo-oriented game. You're being given solid, mechanical reasons (i.e. not strategy or gameplay ones) to NOT play your cards.

This is why I think there's validity to what Amaz has been saying recently, in that most of the cards they're releasing for Priest are using mechanics that the player base has already decided are unworkable. Priest of the Feast is Tournament Medic, except that you actually need spells in hand to get the benefit, rather than just hitting the button, and is therefore an objectively worse card than something that already isn't played. Onyx Bishop uses Resurrect. Purify is a worse version of Silence. Many of the Whispers cards (Alchemist) are the same way. It's like they're out of ideas because the class is intrinsically flawed and they don't know what to do with it.

But what's the root cause there? The base set of cards. And that's why I think the midgame isn't the best place to look. Priest needs help staying in a decent position to get to the midgame and they're sure as hell not going to do it by playing Northshire Cleric or Healing Well. There have to be cards that enable Priest to actually participate in the early game so it can get to the point where it can use its (completely underwhelming) panoply of 4s and 5s. Unless their thought is to just make Priest the "neutral minion" class. They've already admitted that Blademaster is a Priest card hanging in the neutral zone. If that's the hidden design philosophy, then they need to make Priest spells a helluva lot better. You can't print shit like Shadow Word: Horror. The conditional nature of so many Priest cards simply removes them from viable play. No other class suffers so much from the coin flip: Aggro or Control. Based on the flip, 10-20% of your deck just became useless, just as you were saying. That's a flaw. And it's a flaw that's not being addressed by the standard set.

I doubt Priest-plays-Neutral-cards is sincerely it's a hidden design philosophy, but it's definitely where the game has pushed the players. I also don't think they rely on Zetalot and kin to tell them a Hero is in good shape or not. I have met some of these folks, as have you, and we know they aren't that bad at this. The irony is that slowing down the game--a design philosophy for sure, given card edits has hurt Priest. It pushed all the other Heroes to slower decks that play more deliberately. Priests' bread and butter was "the Punish." Overextend your board? Holy Nova, Lightbomb. Play that Ysera? Shrinkmeister + Cabal Shadow Priest. Tempo Sylvanas? Entombed. Priests, their cards--all very reactive. Assess the board state and leverage your hand and hero power to exploit it. The game has moved to a place where all Priests do is Heal. And who cares about that? You just count the Shadow Words and Entombs and play your board. It's not like the Priest is going to put down anything interesting.

Your argument about the Classic set is the real issue here I think. Priest has two problems in this regard:
1) The Classic cards are generically bad. Mass Dispel? Mindgames? Lightwell? Holy Fire? Comparable to Paladin. Paladin had their big "Clasic-cards-suck" problem fixed by Mysterious Challenger, which made them good in that you didn't actually have to cast them. Priest has had no such luck.
2) The cards Priest players "need" to build a better archetype are expensive as hell. You need to get away from the Basic/Classic cards, so you need ot craft the others. Want to be a competitive Dragon Priest? You need the BRM Adventure (Blackwing Corrupter), you need Azure Drakes (Rare), Ysera (Legendary), Twilight Guardians (Epics), and Wyrmrest Agent (Rare). That is not a deck for new players. Shadow Priest? You need Shadowform (Epics) to even get started, nevermind whatever else makes that work, but it probably includes a bunch of Legendaries.

jeb wrote: I doubt Priest-plays-Neutral-cards is sincerely it's a hidden design philosophy, but it's definitely where the game has pushed the players.

Ha. Interestingly, this is a quote from Iksar, one of the devs, on Reddit today in a (very poor) response to the outcry:

"We've had similar articles in the past about design stories for particular cards, I think the most recent one I remember discussed all the design iterations that Yogg went through. Card designs have a number of different goals, sometimes those goals are immediate competitive play and sometimes they shoot for something else. Things like flavor, arena viability, or sprinkling in tools for a new or existing archetype. In smaller sets, it can be a little risky to take a gamble on a new toolkit because there are fewer cards to work with. In the case of Priest, we were pretty happy with the amount of options the class was getting from neutral (Barnes, Curator*, Medivh, Dragon Cards) to do some testing with a new archetype that Purify could be a part of. In my mind there is some positive to the outcry over Purify because I think people will definitely try it out and report any successes/failures/stories they had building and playing a 'silence your own stuff' priest. None of this is to say anyone is wrong in their feedback, but just to communicate some of the ideas surrounding a card design. Hearthstone is important to all of us, and we're trying to do better in terms of communication and understanding what different communities (like this one) are most interested in. I've been happy to be here and have a conversation about what you all want from the game, thanks for being so passionate about it. "

Unreal, dude.

And, finally, the response: www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/4w...th_ben_brode_purify/

The Dev insights video is embedded there. He spensd a few minutes acknowledging that they fucked up but he makes a comment about "misreading the environment" which I took exception to on Twitter, since the frustration over Priest has been going since June and has only accelerated as it has sunk beneath the waves like great Cthul- ahem, C'Thun. He responded:



So, it was a timing issue (i.e. the expansion was too far along for them to reverse course by the time they saw what was happening. I don't think that absolves them entirely (Donais' "Is there a problem?" response to a a question from PC Gamer still kinda lingers) but at least they're responding.

Taking Purify out of Arena is a good decision and it's just about the biggest bandaid they can affix to the problem right now.

But this whole situation just highlights the fact that some classes' core cards are better than others and the best thing for the game moving forward would be for the next big balance change to be a major overhaul of the class cards. Right now Shaman, Paladin, Priest and Rogue are at the mercy of whatever's in the current Standard rotation, and Shaman is going to lose a lot (Thing from Below will be auto-nerfed by the loss of Totem Golem and Tuskarr Totemic) when TGT rotates out. Because as much as Blizzard likes to say that certain cards restrict design space as a justification for rotating them out or nerfing them, you know what else restricts design space? The lack of playable core cards in a class, meaning that every expansion has to devote a non-trivial number of class cards to "patching" the sub-par classes. So then you end up with a sub-par class that's dragged up to playability but with only one or two viable decks with 2-3 "mandatory" cards.

After reading some suggestions for enhancing the Priest class cards by promoting some of their GvG cards to the core (Dark Cultist and Velen's Chosen, in particular), what are some other cards that you'd add to Paladin, etc.?

I thought maybe adding either Shielded Minibot or Muster for Battle to Paladin, with my personal preference being Muster, but both is probably too much.

I don't know what everyone is bitching about. Any class is playable with a deck built around C' Thun.


J/k. I never play the big C. Thinking about dusting all the C thun related cards I have. So boring.

Reynad was saying that one class had to be the worst and thank god it's priest. Because it sucks losing to priest. I agree with that sentiment. Priest with Justicar where you need to apply 70 damage over the game to kill him or where they steal your stuff and use it on you. So annoying. Warrior is almost as bad though with Justicar and shield bearers played behind Brann. Zetalot is probably the best priest player. Saw him take down zoolock at rank 4 on a stream this morning.

Everything I was doing on the ladder fell apart at 14. Now I am onto top tier meta deck.... Dragon Warrior. I am missing most of the best top end cards for it... Rags, Ysera, Deathwing, Grommosh etc. It still seems more consistent than everything else I had working. Completely over control paladin. You need a nice deck mix with equal parts control, heal, and draw coming your way. You miss one leg of that triangle in your hand by turn 6 and it's over.

SebastianBludd wrote: Taking Purify out of Arena is a good decision and it's just about the biggest bandaid they can affix to the problem right now.

In addition to the Firelands Portal snafu, yeah. Like he mentioned in the video, they're working on a way to adjust pick rates in Arena that doesn't have to do with card rarity and they're really going to have to if they don't want Arena to be perpetually dominated by Mage and Rogue, mostly because of the strength of the removal in their core sets. They did finally upgrade Warrior's status from "worst ever" in Arena, but they did so by giving Warrior a lot of versatile cards that have also led to it dominating Standard. So it is a fine line to walk.

SebastianBludd wrote: But this whole situation just highlights the fact that some classes' core cards are better than others and the best thing for the game moving forward would be for the next big balance change to be a major overhaul of the class cards.

Yep. Absolutely agree. The other thing that kind of grated about the video is when he referred, again, to their hopes for Dragon Priest. So, that's been the only consistent archetype for Priest for almost a year now and yet the best thing they can offer is more neutral Dragon cards when it comes to playing Priest? But the reason there's only one archetype available is because the core cards sucks and, as you say, they're utterly dependent on what rotation is currently available to define a deck type that's actually workable.

SebastianBludd wrote: After reading some suggestions for enhancing the Priest class cards by promoting some of their GvG cards to the core (Dark Cultist and Velen's Chosen, in particular), what are some other cards that you'd add to Paladin, etc.?

Hm. I don't know about either Muster or Minibot because those cards were both so good that they, by default, went into every Paladin deck, regardless of approach. You can see that they've tried to emulate Muster with Stand Against Darkness, but I think it'd be really dangerous to include those two as core, since they really would restrict design space since everyone would play both all the time. Personally, I'd love to see the return of my beloved Coghammer, but I recognize that there are only so many weapons that can be in the game at a time before it becomes overwhelming. Paladin is another class that's kind of caught in between concepts, since it naturally embodies aggro with the its hero power, but then also has aspects of healing and some of the best big creatures in the game.

This is some of the most thoughtful commentary on this game on the web, people. I want to say I appreciate it. Reddit doesn't lend itself to this kind of discussion and Hearthpwn and team sites have similar signal-to-noise problems in my experience. It's tough to find a place with so little shitposting. Thanks!

I wouldn't want to see Shielded Minibot or Muster for Battle again for the same reason Jackwraith notes--they are so good they go in every deck. Even super-narrow Murloc Paladin builds would play these--they are so good. Not to mention the damage they do to Arena. I love them. I played the hell out of them. But they need to be in Wild now.

They have the Arena screening tool in effect already to keep C'Thun cards at bay, right? I assume they just enroll Purify in there? They need to have some alternate scheme for the drafting though--the rarity makes no sense there.

I am going to be trying some stuff out, my ranking be damned. For the last couple of days, it's been Reno Rogue. It is... odd. Every game is different--you need to work with what you get, and that can take you in a bunch of directions. It is fun, and it's all over the place, so the opponent is mystified half the time. It is a C'Thun deck, kind of. I had it as a N'Zoth deck, but it was too slow to safely make it to Yogg. So I mixed some things up. It's still a work in progress. Maybe it could go with Edwin Van Cleef. Maybe it should use Acidic Swamp Ooze. I don't know. Try it out though, it is fun. Everything is 1x or Lx.

Backstab (removal)
Shadestep (returns Reno, C'Thun, Blade of C'Thun, rarely something else.)
Cold Blood (Gadgetzan food, removal, burst)
Conceal (Gadgetzan food, hides Gadgetzan or Brann for big turn afters)
Eviscerate (removal)
Sap ("removal")
Undercity Dweller (card draw, more opponent confusion)
Burgle (see above)
Fan of Knives (card draw, removal)
Shadowstrike (removal)
Tomb Pillager (best 4-drop in HS?)
Xaril, Poisoned Mind (makes Gadgetzan food, could make more Shadesteps--see above)
Assassinate (I know! Removal. Trust me here.)
Dark Iron Skulker (removal--this is on the block currently, but every time I say this it saves my ass).
Shadowcaster (make extra Renos, Thaurissans)
Vanish (!! crazy enough to work, works as removal against Shaman and Warlocks)
Blade of C'Thun (removal++)

Sir Finley Mrrgglton (just added this--Rogue Hero power is bad in this deck)
Bloodmage Thalnos (card draw, the buffs)
Brann Bronzebeard (tricksy Hobbit, usually lifegain with ERF or Refreshment Vendor)
Coldlight Oracle (trying this out, card draw, synergy with Vanish as removal)
Disciple of C'Thun (removal, can be Brann'd)
Earthen Ring Farseer (lifegain, can be Brann'd)
C'Thun's Chosen (seems weird, but I need one more C'Thun buff)
Refreshment Vendor (lifegain)
Azure Drake (best 5-drop in HS?)
Emperor Thaurissan (The playz)
Gadgetzan Auctioneer (card draw--removal magnet)
Reno Jackson (gonna be rich, like two or three times)
C'Thun (plip plip burst)

Still working on this. Going to call it "Kitchen Sink Reno" because you don't really know how things are going to go. You have the tools to do anything! Or nothing! Mulligan for 2- and 3-drops and spell-based removal. I usually keep Thaurissan. One tick is great, and can be AMAZING if you get it on Brann + C'Thun. With a Coin or a Shadestep those can both be played on the same turn.

I took a Reno-Yogg Mage to Level 8 last season. Started mid-way, so am trying it again; at Level 16 right now. Like Jeb describes with the Rogue-Reno -- anything can happen (or nothing). Decks I have the most trouble with so far are Warrior where they get a ridiculous amount of armor --- just lost to one where I took him from 55 armor to 19 life, but I died of fatigue one turn before I could finish him off

Here to report aggro Beast Druid is now a thing. I am only about 7 games in on the deck. But like 6-1 on the ladder with it. Finley to change hero power and discover beasts make the draw. If you put cards that cost more than 4 mana you only gonna slow yourself down. I had turn 6 win over controlish warrior that felt real good. The loss was mirror match against beast Druid who outdrew me. Hard to get the board once it's gone

Old gods. What old gods? You won't see them

Edit to add. Deck including the cheap beasts from first wing of expansion. Duh