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Hearthstone Players!

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11 May 2017 21:47 #248191 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
Good Paladin builds are so expensive these days. You really need Tarim, you really need a Dinosize, and those Murloc buffing dinos. So many Epics, jeez.

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12 May 2017 00:34 #248199 by SebastianBludd
Replied by SebastianBludd on topic Hearthstone Players!
I know, and what with the greater number of sets released per year I'm hesitant to craft a lot of cards only to end up short of dust when the next expansion rolls around. I've never crafted Light Rag, for example, but I can usually make do with Ivory Knight or Lay on Hands. And I don't play the midrange Paladin deck because it would cost me 3200 dust for all the cards I'm missing (2x Megasaur, 2x Vilefin, Light Rag), but I suppose I could get by with only 1600 if I eschew Light Rag, like usual.

Jackwraith challenged me to a friendly match for his 80 gold quest tonight so I got to see his Paladin quest deck in action. This was right after I'd built an N'Zoth Paladin deck that I saw on Tempostorm (minus Light Rag and Wickerflame, I subbed in another Forbidden Healing and Cairne) so I thought I'd try it out against him. It was close for a bit but Galvadon is just not worth it and I was able to neutralize him with a Doomsayer behind a Spikeridge Steed-buffed SHR. I don't know how you'd fix Galvadon but as he stands it's much too easy for him to end up doing nothing.

I'll also happily eat crow when it comes to Tarim; it's such a fun, powerful card that almost always results in interesting decisions and lines of play. And the fact that you can usually end up playing multiples because of Stonehill Defender almost makes me feel bad for how ridiculous it is. I've been laddering with midrange Hunter but now that N'Zoth Paladin is good again I might switch, or at least alternate since the N'Zoth Paladin games are usually pretty long.
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12 May 2017 15:36 #248231 by MacDirk Diggler
Dinosize???? Wait. Wut? No way. I have played plent of HS since the expansion. Nobody runs that card. Nobody quests Galvadon either for that matter. I have not played with or against either. I have watched some HCT, Global games, EU v CN going on now. Paladin is one of the dominant decks aside from Nzoth pally China players tried. Nobody runs Dinosize. Spike-ridge, hells yes. Paladin is one of the better Swiss army knife heroes ATM Solid removal. Neuter big attacks. Heal. Early pressure. Late game. I don't have lightlord either. I don't run any heals. It works out fine usually because I have more early game pressure cards without that tech. Alexstraza Mage is a problem however.

I am having a great time with the game right now. I have enough of everything to be able to try most of the flavor of the month decks. Except monster Druid build like Dog runs. I am about to finally churn out arch Mage Tony. Can't wait to try that out with some burgly bully. I am surprised not many people use that card. I run two in my corpse flower miracle Rogue with one copy of red man wyrm which is another under sung decent card.

My buddy I got into HS 2 wks before the expansion made rank 12 last month. He picked such a great time to jump in. I don't think he has any cards from Mean Streets and he is doing fine.

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12 May 2017 15:54 #248235 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
I've seen Dinosize more than once on streams, especially if folks are dabbling with the the Quest. This is Ladder play, I would assume tourney decks are just Murloc every which way.

I'm having a good time as well, outside of Quest Rogue, which is seriously the WORST deck to play against in my time with HEARTHSTONE. I just loathe it deeply. It is a waste of time and energy. I feel like it's pointless when I lose and I don't feel cool or anything when I win. I just think it makes HEARTHSTONE dumb.

I've seen Burgly Bully in Priest lately for Lyra tricks, and my son runs one in his Quest Mage deck, which wins with a buffed Red Mana Wyrm! I ran Bully right after the rotation in a Standard Miracle Rogue deck to feed to Gadgetzan or get more mana on the Maly turn for the kill. Unlike MSoG, I feel like the meta is taking much longer to settle and there's all kinds of things to try.

Worst off right now is Warlock, I think. I can't get anything going, and I don't see anyone else getting anything to work either.

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12 May 2017 16:20 #248238 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
Yeah, Warlock is hard up right now because most of the key elements of Zoo and Handlock were standard/classic cards and the devs' trend has been to move people away from those and to try new cards. So all of the nerfs of recent times to neutrals have really impacted Warlock decks. They've tried mightily to get both of Warlock's main mechanics (discard and tossing away life for cards) to work and they're just not viable. If discard allowed you to choose what card was tossed, those decks would be rampant (and, of course, stuff like Golem would be broken.) But as long as it's completely random, it will never function properly. The only real reason Doomguard was run as a finisher in Zoo was because you could dump your hand easily and not have to make the sacrifice that DG called for. I think a Demon tribe deck is still viable in the lower ranks, but not at anything seriously competitive. This is almost exactly the same situation that Shaman was facing in 2015: Overload and totems weren't viable. It took producing cards like Totem Golem, Thing from Below, and Trogg to make them viable. Discard will need that kind of OP stuff to make it work and, given that you're giving up the most important resource in the game (cards) to make those cards work, it still might not be.
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12 May 2017 17:08 #248243 by SebastianBludd
Replied by SebastianBludd on topic Hearthstone Players!
I played a Quest Warlock last night where her very first discard was a Doomguard. She ended up completing the Quest but it was never very close.

Warlock needs a discard minion that has a Battlecry similar to the following: Discover 3 cards from your hand and choose 2 to Discard. It still has the possibility to screw you if, for example, you have two Doomguards in hand and both of them are Discovered, but it would allow you to minimize the bad RNG and to actually utilize discard synergies. Right now the discard mechanic is an RNG shitshow where you're just hoping for the best.
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13 May 2017 16:21 #248282 by Hex Sinister
Replied by Hex Sinister on topic Hearthstone Players!
It's pretty bad. I got the quest and tried to make it work but it's slow. That guy who's deathrattle gets you a discarded minion sucks. First of all he always gets discarded. Second is it needs to be battlecry for it to be worth the mana. There aren't enough spoon-like cards to supplement the discards. I'm not crafting that legendary insect thing for this, no way. Yeah, I hate the discard mechanic.

(Can't remember the fucking names, sorry.)

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13 May 2017 23:00 #248286 by Brewmiester
Replied by Brewmiester on topic Hearthstone Players!
I've got an idea. Let's combine the shitty rogue quest with the annoyance of freeze mage (crystal shard) and as the cherry on top swashbuckler and patches (pirate warrior). Yeah that will be fun for everybody!
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14 May 2017 18:55 - 14 May 2017 19:03 #248306 by MacDirk Diggler
I looove quest Rogue. I am that asshole. You guys complaining about it only makes me want to play it more. I rode it from 10 to 5 last month. But ran into too many fast decks and switched up to Hemet Mage deck of my own brewing. Hemet doesn't synergies with iceblock too well as you pullout everything but Firelands Alex Fireball Fireblast Medivh, so you can fatigue before you finish them off. So I cut ice block for some counter spell mirror entity and came this close to legend.
But quest Rogue. Ostkaka and somebody else brainstormed a build I am using now. It's got more defense. Just beat Paladin turn 12. My old quest Rogue wouldn't last that long

2x prep
2x shadowstep
2x firefly
2x glacial shard
Patches
2x south sea deckhand
2x stonetusk
Caverns below
2x Bilefin
2x gadget ferryman
2x novice eng
2x youthful brew
2x igneous
2x mimic pod
2x tol vir stoneshaper
2x vanish

This isn't an easy deck to play. I have learned a lot over 100 or so games. Keep glacial shard against aggro. Mulligan for bounce. Mimic pod on curve (or prepped) doubles your win rate. Use shadow step for last bounce so you can complete and play caverns same turn. The stoneshaper is good because of all the elemental synergy. I have heard it debated that tar creeper for 3 mana may be better. But the bubble on stoneshaper is significant. Even though I think this deck is better than what I was using before with Fan and Shiv for more draw. It's hard to win with it. Try beating purify priest for example. The meta has adjusted to it. I know I have a good record against it when I face it with a different deck.
I can't get on any solid roll this month. Get close to ten and lose a lot back to 14. Tried the xodia Mage. It's quest deck with combo of making 4 Sorcerers apprenti with molten reflection. Then you play the quest take a second turn with Tony and make infinite fireballs. So memey, but fun to try. The problem is that it's like an 8 card combo. You have to 1 complete the quest. 2 not die. 3. Draw most of your deck and have the apprenti and reflection and Tony -AND- a Tony activator in hand. It's stupid hard to pull all that off.
Last edit: 14 May 2017 19:03 by MacDirk Diggler.
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15 May 2017 04:22 #248315 by Matt Thrower
Replied by Matt Thrower on topic Hearthstone Players!

MacDirk Diggler wrote: This isn't an easy deck to play. I have learned a lot over 100 or so games.


I haven't seen this particular variant of the deck in action, but that's certainly not the case with most versions. Most versions are very easy to play, and very boring to play and very boring to play against. If you draw your bounce cards and get the quest before turn 7-8, you win. If you don't, you lose.

That's the problem with the deck. It's not over-powered, it's just criminally tedious. I crafted the card, ran the deck a handful of times and now I won't touch it because it's not fun for anyone.
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15 May 2017 12:07 #248330 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
Quest Rogue, fun or not, tedious or not, has warped the whole metagame. All this Aggro is around because Aggro is the only way to beat it with any confidence. I was Quest Priest and cleared the Rogue's board FOUR TIMES and cast Amara TWICE and lost. I'm glad you are enjoying your thinky little puzzles over there, Alistair, but I'm not having any fun whatsoever on the other side.

I think Exodia Mage works better at VERY high ranks, where the expectation for play is the slooooow rolllll. Play at Legend is largely conservative, shooting for the sure thing, and this makes games slower as everyone cooks up how to kill someone from 15-20 instead of playing out and putting them at, say, 5 life. Exodia crumbles in the latter style of play. It can only stave off death two or three times :P The Molten Giant version of Quest Mage might be more consistent; letting the block go off, making the Giants free, copying one with Reflection, and taking an extra turn for 24 + burn.
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15 May 2017 16:53 #248375 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
Well, you guys are boned. Mike Donais said in an interview today that Quest Rogue has only about a 50% win rate, even though it's hugely popular (he did concede that its popularity may be causing the win rate to look artificially low, since a lot of people are playing it that have not a clue.) What he either didn't notice or didn't mention is the other reason for its popularity: it's cheap. You need one (1) legendary and the rest of the deck is made up of 2 classic Epics and a bunch of common trash that's been around forever (Stonetusk Boar, et al.) You can throw Patches in there, too, but it's not required. The deck is just highlighting what everyone was complaining about: the increased cost to play competitively in Un'Goro. The Rogue deck is the one that defies that, which is part of what makes it ideal, in addition to what you guys are complaining about. In a nod to the complaints about the inevitability of the feeling that sets in when the quest goes off, he did say they were concerned with how much damage is caused by Charge (i.e. Boar) and recycling those guys. Fun and interactive! They're already wishing they never invented the Charge mechanic...

Get used to it. He emphasized that the quests are going to be around for over a year and there will be more cards coming out that will make the others viable (read: everything but Rogue, Warrior, and kinda Mage.)

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15 May 2017 18:38 #248379 by MacDirk Diggler
Ya. Exactly. i checked metastats.net last meta snapshot complete for Un Goro is #4 May 1-7. You see that Quest Rogue is second most popular deck archetype behind midrange Hunter (which is also cheap). Rank 20-11 it has 46.6% win rate, Rank 10-6 has 47% and is only the sixth most popular archetype, rank 5 and up 4th most popular and 49% win rate. So you guys are complaining heavily about a deck that is not favored. I don't fault you for hating playing against it if you feel powerless to deal with it. But it's not as hard to beat as Aggro Shaman was,and it doesn't beat you turn 5 like Pirate warrior can. Its tier 3, not a beast by any means.

@MattDP if you build the cycle version of quest rogue you either get it by 5 or lose. 7-8 is way too late for that one. The deck i use has defensive tools and 7 is still doable with some divine taunt and vanish. So ya if you are just playing it where you get the nuts or don't, I imagine its boring. I like it because I have the tools to stall the game long enough to overcome bad draws, and the games have variety to figure out how to survive and complete. But still. Its a motherfucker to try and win a bunch of games with it now. People know how to beat it and that is reflected in meta snapshot.

I wish i knew where to find the win totals by archetype from any recent tourneys. EU vs CN some people brought miracle rogue over quest. Its Mid Range Pally world right now, you should be hating on that.

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15 May 2017 19:31 #248383 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
I don't mind Quests. I like them quite a bit! They expand deckbuilding, and that's generically good. I have a problem with the design/development of the Rogue Quest, that's all. It reduces the game to something puzzly and interesting to the Rogue player and a boring shitass Aggro game for the opponent. I don't think it's overpowered, I can and do beat it, probably about 33% of the time (in a Control place right now). As noted, some folks are fucking bad at piloting this deck. What I don't like is how it dictates play from turn 0 (it's ubitquity around Rank 15 means I mulligan for it against Rogue). I think HEARTHSTONE is hurt by this deck. I am in a painfully small minority, I would guess. Folks willing to play seem to be having a grand time.

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15 May 2017 20:29 #248385 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
Hm. Maybe. Lifecoach already quit and here's been some dissension among the pro ranks (several orgs have folded their teams and gotten out) and Kripp posted a 16-minute rant today about the same thing: RNG. There's too much of it. Lifecoach and the orgs pulling out is because they can't afford to pay a team when the game is so random that skill and practice have less to do with results than what you pull from Glyph and Book. It's as bad as it ever was in the GvG days but in a different fashion: now it's about pulling spells, rather than minions. Minions that appear on the board thanks to Shredder can be dealt with. Spells that sit in your hand until you play them at the optimal time cannot (no counterspells except one Mage Secret.) Donais and Co. say you should play around those cards, but you can't play around every spell in the Mage class and it's really hard to play around something that didn't begin in your opponent's deck and can be planned for. But, again, RNG is what Team 5 thinks keeps the game refreshed. But it's exactly why I rarely play. Card games already have RNG. Team 5 doesn't think it's enough and the Rogue Quest may be one of the hallmarks for why they think so. If you know exactly what's going to happen every time the quest shows up on turn 1, the game gets pretty boring, right? That's their argument. I just think their application of RNG is too slapdash to make it genuinely interesting, rather than frustrating.

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