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Hearthstone Players!

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06 Nov 2015 11:04 #214328 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
Jeb's right. That's a fine order. Rogue is tricky because of combo, so if you're more comfortable with Hunter, roll with it.

On the Warrior changes... I dunno. Just looking at the class cards, which Rares are going to become commons? Upgrade? Armorsmith? Sparring Partner? The only thing that really seems viable is Frothing Berzerker and, even then, that card isn't really a threat in Arena unless you have a way to regularly exploit it AND protect it like you can in constructed. And most of the Epics other than Gorehowl are just bad unless you have other cards to work in concert with them, like Shield Slam. The two decks that work for Warrior (Control and Patron) are heavily dependent on neutral cards that can be exploited by Warrior cards that don't work well in Arena (the aforementioned Shield Slam and stuff like Whirlwind.) I think they'll have to do more work than that to really make the class viable in that format.

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06 Nov 2015 11:53 - 06 Nov 2015 11:55 #214336 by Jexik
Replied by Jexik on topic Hearthstone Players!
Rogue is really fun, especially if you're on the draw and use the coin. T1 Defias Ringleader (I had 2 in my 8 win deck) or T4 Shado-Pan Rider are just great.

I like Warlock a lot in general. I had 2 Doomguards in the 9 win deck. There are still some cards I think I need to pick up to play them in constructed.
Last edit: 06 Nov 2015 11:55 by Jexik.
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06 Nov 2015 13:42 #214343 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
Yeah, the Coin is amazing in Rogue--makes me obsess over Cutpurse too. Anything for more coins. My 9-win Warlock deck was also super-bursty with Doomguard and Power Overwhelmings. If they didn't kill me from say, 15 life, I was probably going to hit them for 20. It was nuts.

I think the rarity move(s) would be to move situational cards to higher rarity (e.g., Bolster --> Epic) and move some less situational one down, like Magnataur to Rare or even Shieldmaiden or Mortal Strike to common. The power level differences at Common for Warrior are so crazy. That Blizzard can offer Bolster at the same rate as Fiery War Axe... actually it offers Bolster more, because it's a TGT card. I mean, that's not fun for anyone.

Enjoy this Tavern Brawl folks, it is a party.

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07 Nov 2015 05:09 - 07 Nov 2015 05:10 #214406 by Wetworks
Replied by Wetworks on topic Hearthstone Players!
New League of Explorers adventure for Hearthstone releasing NEXT THURSDAY for $20.



Here's a list of all revealed cards, there will be a total of 45 new cards.

www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3r...se_reveal_chart_all/
Last edit: 07 Nov 2015 05:10 by Wetworks.

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09 Nov 2015 17:43 #214583 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
Looking over the League of Explorers cards . Nothing jumping out at me like Grim Patron or Mysterious Challenger this time.
  • I think we'll see a lot of Brann Bronzebeard (2/4 for 3 with "Your Battlecries trigger twice,") paired with cheap "draw a card" effects. This enables combo decks to dig deep. All the more so, for folks that like Mill Rogue, (3 + 3 + 0 + 1 + 0 + 1) draws 12 cards.
  • Looks like SIlverback Patriarch got strictly upgraded, barring interactions with Hobgoglin. Warrior has Fierce Monkey, a 3/4 Beast with Taunt for 3.
  • Explorer's Hat looks like it could break something. 2-mana spell "Give a minion +1/+1 and Deathrattle: Add an Explorer's Hat to your hand." I want to say Lock and Load and this are sick, but it's pretty good just on its own.
  • I also like Desert Camel, 2/4 Beast for 3 that Battlecries a 1-mana minion from each deck into play. For Face Hunter, that's 4/5 stats for 3, beating Animal Companion, and the opponent might not have any 1-drops! For Beast Hunter it's 3/5 and card draw off a Webspinner, and improving late-game draws. That's pretty fucking good. Can follow with Tomb Spider at 4 mana, 3/3 Beast that Discovers a Beast. Probably not though, unless they nerf Piloted Shredder.
  • I feel like Forgotten Torch is going to piss me off. 3-mana for 3 damage, but shuffles a 3-mana for 6-damage spell into the deck. Yeah, I will hate that once or twice for sure.
  • Value wise, I feel like I should like 8/12 stats for 6 I would get from Wobbling Runts (2/6 for 6 that Deathrattles into three 2/2's), but two health is bad in the late game. Compare to Ball of Spiders, 3/3 stats for 6, but it can turn into all kinds of crazy game-ending shit (for good or ill).
  • I generically like Jeweled Scarab, 2-mana 1/1 Beast that Discovers a 3-cost card. That's what Mid-range Hunter needed, to have a smoother curve.

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09 Nov 2015 21:59 #214605 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
I can see the potential for all of that, but nothing that changes the essential character of the meta. I like the idea of the Hat for Control Hunter, but the limiting factor there is the mana cost, so you can't get as many reuse effects as you would out of something that happens as automatically as, say, Dreadsteed. I know their thought is that Hat would work great with Lock and Load, but the latter card is so awful because of the RNG that I can't see it becoming viable in any way. Hat is about the best card that could be used with that awful card, but you don't want to play the awful card, so...

But, just like TGT, almost none of these will impact the competitive scene and, thus, the ladder at all except for possibly Brann.
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10 Nov 2015 09:53 #214638 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!

But, just like TGT, almost none of these will impact the competitive scene and, thus, the ladder at all except for possibly Brann.


I gotta call a little BS on this sentiment. Like, what are you after? Druid to get a better finisher than 14 to the face on an empty board? Something to make Freeze Mage and/or Handlock more obnoxious? These decks are ideas and got tweaks from each expansion--I mean, Freeze has been a thing since Closed Beta, right? It's like saying the MtG meta never changed because The Deck was still viable back in Mirage Block.

Reading this over, I feel like you want more archetypes, and I think that Blizzard is doing a solid job providing them. Aggro Druid was not a real thing before Living Roots and Darnassus Aspirant. You saw Dragon Priest, Secret Paladin, Murloc Paladin, and Totem Shaman at the World Championship, all only possible because of TGT cards. Something I don't mention above is that this set is crawling with Murlocs, and someone is going to break them. I mean, Brann + Neptulon draws you EIGHT CARDS on turn 10. I was willing to wait for two Kel'Thuzad's at 10 mana; but a 2/4, 7/7, and eight Murlocs might be better.

Limb time! I think the meta will see: Mill Rogue become a thing, Control Shaman become a thing (that little Murloc that lets you dump the Hero Power is legit), Murloc Paladin will be obnoxious as FUCK ALL and probably get Divine Spirit nerfed, and Burn Mage will make an appearance--probably in Tempo clothes, but it'll be focused on burning the face and drawing cards.
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10 Nov 2015 10:08 #214641 by airmarkus
Replied by airmarkus on topic Hearthstone Players!
I'm really not sure how much this will affect the ladder meta, sometimes these things surprise. What I'm looking forward to most is adding some more cards to arena. It probably won't shake up the top tier classes (mage, paladin, rogue), but I think it will give some of the lower ones like warrior and shaman some more cards to work with, which is always a good thing.
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10 Nov 2015 12:26 #214659 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
@jeb: That's fair. I'm obviously disenchanted with their unwillingness to address the apparent card advantage flaws, so I'm not the most objective observer.

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10 Nov 2015 14:19 #214678 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!

Jackwraith wrote: @jeb: That's fair. I'm obviously disenchanted with their unwillingness to address the apparent card advantage flaws, so I'm not the most objective observer.

And to your point, THAT's fair. I think the biggest issues in the game right now are Divine Favor and Battle Rage. Cards that cost little that let you draw lots are a threat to the integrity of the game. I get why they nerfed Warsong Commander, but I have been mauling folks in the face with Patron Warrior to finish a quest and it's largely on the back of that ridiculous card drawing engine.

In any match of equally skilled players and equally strong decks, the game turns on the ability to see more of your deck than the opponent sees of hers. The issue with Divine Favor and Battle Rage are that they skew the math for cards so badly. Look at the card draw cards:
  • Rogue: Sprint: 4 cards/7 mana = 1.75 mpc (Prep can make this 1 mpc, which is sick as hell and makes for one of the best decks in Hearthstone)
  • Rogue: Burgle: 2 cards/3 mana = 1.5 mpc
  • Mage: Arcane Intellect: 2 cards/3 mana = 1.5 mpc (the definition of "fair" card draw?)
  • Shaman: Shitty McShitterson: 2 cards/4 mana = 2 mpc
  • Druid: Ancient of Lore: 7 mana/2 cards = 3.5 mpc, but the 5/5 is nice. Assume a 5/5 body costs 4.5 and this is 2 cards/2.5 mana = 1.25 mpc
  • Druid: Wrath: 2 mana/1 card = 2 mpc
  • Druid: Nourish: 3 cards/5 mana = 1.67 mpc (Why isn't Innervate --> Nourish a thing like Prep --> Sprint?)
  • Priest: Thoughtsteal: 2 cards/3 mana = 1.5 mpc
  • Hunter: (nerfed into oblivion, RIP Starving Buzzard/Flare)
  • Warlock: Hero Power: 1 card/2 mana = 2 mpc
  • Warlock: Mortal Coil: 1 card/1 mana = 1 mpc (pretty conditional)
  • Warrior: Battle Rage: X cards/2 mana = At worst, 2 mpc, but I can usually get 0.5 mpc and I am not even good at Warrior.
  • Paladin: Divine Favor: X cards/3 mana = at worst, 3 mpc, but a good Divine Favor is about 0.67, and I have gotten 0.38 mpc (or better!) with aggro builds.
  • Paladin: Solemn Vigil: 2 cards/5 mana = at worst 2.5 mpc, but it's usually about 1 mpc.

The only ones that can dig into that nasty <1 mpc zone are Divine Favor and Battle Rage (and arguably Solemn Vigil, but you have to cough up other cards to make that happen).

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10 Nov 2015 15:07 - 10 Nov 2015 15:17 #214685 by MacDirk Diggler
I am not convinced on the calculation made manna per card. In some instances you are spending zero (warlock), one or two cards as well as manna in order to draw cards. I think it may more sense to use net cards gained divided by manna spent, not th gross

Prep and Sprint are not nearly as profitable as you make them sound. You draw four cards but if prep and sprint were not in your hand then it's quite possible two of the four cards you drew would have been. I know it's not quite that simple but it's closer to the truth than 1 mpc
Last edit: 10 Nov 2015 15:17 by MacDirk Diggler.
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10 Nov 2015 15:28 #214690 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
Alastair's right about the opportunity cost. Prep/Sprint is a net of two cards; they just happen to be four cards that weren't in hand, but you need to a) take up over 10% of your deck with that combo (allowing for the utility of Prep with many other cards) and b) have both in hand in order to gain that MPC. The reason that Rogue has trouble outside of mill/combo decks is capital "C" Combo: they're often using additional cards to make their own cards most efficient.

The reason Innvervate/Nourish isn't a thing is because Nourish isn't worth it, Innervate is better used on other cards (like Ancient of Lore...), and Druid has a number of other draw mechanisms, like Lore and Wrath, that do more than just draw cards (or heal, which is typically the least good option for actions unless you're a Warlock.) Wrath and Lore both help with board control. Nourish doesn't. Prep/Sprint exists because Rogues have no other options.
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10 Nov 2015 15:34 #214691 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
Sure, whatever floats your boat. Net cards gained per mana (npm), bigger is better on this metric.
  • Rogue: Sprint: 3 cards/7 mana = 0.43 npm (Prep can make this 0.5 npm, which is sick as hell and makes for one of the best decks in Hearthstone)
  • Rogue: Burgle: 1 card/3 mana = 0.33 npm
  • Mage: Arcane Intellect: 1 cards/3 mana = 0.33 npm (the definition of "fair" card draw?)
  • Shaman: Shitty McShitterson: 1 cards/4 mana = 0.25 npm
  • Druid: Ancient of Lore: 3 cards / 7 mana = 0.43 npm (counting the 5/5 body as a card)*
  • Druid: Wrath: 0 card/2 mana = 0.00 npm (I guess it's 0.50 npc, because ideally it killed something? Is that a net card gained?)
  • Druid: Nourish: 2 cards/5 mana = 0.40 npm (Why isn't Innervate --> Nourish a thing like Prep --> Sprint?)
  • Priest: Thoughtsteal: 1 card/3 mana = 0.33 npm
  • Hunter: (nerfed into oblivion, RIP Starving Buzzard/Flare)
  • Warlock: Hero Power: 1 card/2 mana = 0.50 npm
  • Warlock: Mortal Coil: 0 card/1 mana = 0.00 npm (again, you killed something, so 1.00 npm? Best card so far?)
  • Warrior: Battle Rage: X-1 cards/2 mana = At worst, 0.00 npm, but I can usually get 1.5 npm and I am not even good at Warrior.
  • Paladin: Divine Favor: X-1 cards/3 mana = at worst, 0.00 npm, but a good Divine Favor is about 1.00 npm, and I have gotten 2.00 (or better!) with aggro builds.
  • Paladin: Solemn Vigil: 1 cards/5 mana = at worst 0.20 npm, but it's usually about 0.40 npm.
The truth still bears out here, Divine Favor and Battle Rage are in the rarified > 1.00 npm zone.

*If you use that Ancient of Lore idea, where the body itself is a card, then all decks have access to :
Novice Engineer, 2 card/2 mana = 1.00 npm (best card in hearthstone, confirmed!)
Acolyte of Pain, 2-4 cards/3 mana = 0.67 npm to 1.33 npm!!! My boners have boners.
Maximal Onyxia is 7 cards/9 mana = 0.78 npm
Azure Drake is 2 cards/5 mana = 0.40 npm
Hunter's Ball of Spiders is 6 cards/6 mana = 1.00 npm
...I am trolling, but you get the jist.

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10 Nov 2015 15:49 #214693 by MacDirk Diggler
And the advantage to having draw cards in your deck that you haven't touched on yet. Is that they effectively make your deck smaller. That's how I use a novice engineer sometimes. If I really like 29 cards I will sometimes throw a novice in there as last card just as a space eater in a new deck until I see what it needs

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10 Nov 2015 20:58 #214720 by Not Sure
Replied by Not Sure on topic Hearthstone Players!
Yeah, an interesting difference between Thoughtsteal and Arcane Intelligence is that Thoughtsteal expands your deck by two cards, while Arcane Intelligence lets you cycle your own cards faster.

Whether that's better or not depends on a lot of things, I suppose.

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