What KICKSTARTER(S) are you BACKING and WHY?

Scythe likely leans much farther towards Euro than Kemet. The legion of playtesters were drawn from volunteers as Stonemaier games fans, so they didn't likely get too many ATers in there. I do know of a couple AT friends who played it though.

I never jumped into Galaxy Defenders partially because I felt like I'd missed the boat for some of the KS content. It wasn't a deal-breaker but it kept pushing that game to the bottom of my list for some reason and I never got around to buying/playing it. But I'm waffling on Sword & Sorcery now too, in large part because of those stupid add-ons but also because I've ditched DDAS and Descent 2nd ed in the past. I literally have next to no room for this genre on my shelves, so the game would really need to nail it to stay in my collection. $100 is a lot to lay away on such a hope, especially considering how long it's going to take to get here.

On an unrelated note, I'm getting a little tired of all the hyperbole used when describing Scythe. It looks like a solid Euro 4X hybrid but... Jesus, people need to calm the fuck down a little. Right after reading about the joyless "Kemet meets Tiny Epic Kingdoms" combat (and I enjoy Kemet), I see Jamey's link to a review that basically launches with "Scythe is so good as to almost defy description." Really? I mean, I get that people are excited by the art, but the pedigree of the design is pretty obvious. It most definitely does not defy description. God... hype so annoying. Ok, time for my nap now.

I agree that the hype is overboard. The one exception being that you cannot overhype that art. Gorgeous and evocative. Those few card images I've seen do an incredible job selling this alternate history. If I wasn't saving for a trip to California this Christmas, I'd be adding the art book to my order.

Frohike wrote: Am I the only one who thinks the combat sounds kind of... dull?

Based on the description in today's update, it sounds kind of like Dune's to me. (Disclaimer: I haven't read the rules for Scythe and have only read the rules for Dune but not played it, so I might be making an overly superficial comparison.)

Frohike wrote: I see Jamey's link to a review that basically launches with "Scythe is so good as to almost defy description." Really? I mean, I get that people are excited by the art, but the pedigree of the design is pretty obvious. It most definitely does not defy description.

Remember that the review could have been written by someone who is so new to the hobby that Scythe is the first thing to come along that looks like this. Who posted a "check out my collection" thread on Reddit after buying hot-shit-of-the-month for the last 6 months and who recommends Splendor and Keyflower for fucking everything and "loves Euros" despite never having played Ra or even HEARD of Modern Art. So yeah, maybe Scythe does defy description for some people, even though it shouldn't.

Edit: The Scythe art is fantastic, but you kids can keep it off my damn lawn.

I take issue with calling Scythe a 4x. There is no real exploration in the sense that most 4x players recognize, no discovering new tiles or slowly unraveling the fog of war. The map is static with all the features set in stone from the beginning of the game, and the map will be the same in every game. Each faction starts in exactly the same spot with exactly the same map every game. Also, the combat is only a minor part of the game so exterminate is not really an option.

I'm still excited about Sword & Sorcery. Mainly because of the dynamic nature of the A.I. and how the system is set up to easily randomize each game by swapping in elite powers or new monsters. That was a complaint that I heard about Galaxy Defenders, all the extra aliens from the first kickstarter were difficult to incorporate into the main campaign because the system was not designed to allow swapping of enemy units.

Wetworks wrote: I take issue with calling Scythe a 4x. There is no real exploration in the sense that most 4x players recognize, no discovering new tiles or slowly unraveling the fog of war. The map is static with all the features set in stone from the beginning of the game, and the map will be the same in every game. Each faction starts in exactly the same spot with exactly the same map every game. Also, the combat is only a minor part of the game so exterminate is not really an option.

Agreed. The game looks great to me, but it ain't 4X for the reasons you mentioned.

I played a three player game with my friend's print-n-play copy of Scythe. I saw some interesting design elements, but I did not have fun. Some of the rules detract from the (awesome) theme. For example, these countries have huge mechs moving across the landscape, but for some reason haven't invented bridge technology, so they can't cross rivers without riding the mech. And when they cross the rivers, they can only cross if they are moving into certain terrain types, which differ based on which country. For example, my people could only cross into villages and farms. Very gamey, and struck me as thematically silly. This had the additional effect of some areas of the map were essentially inaccessible to me. This allowed one player to take all the hexes in that location uncontested, and then attack me from there. While attacking isn't a big part of the game, you get victory points/money for the number of hexes you control at the end.

My opponent played better than I did and deserved to win. But I wasn't having fun. I was interested in the game based on the theme and art, but the gameplay just didn't sell me. I also didn't particularly care for Viticulture (it was okay, but nothing special), so maybe I'm just not the target audience for Stegmeier's games.

I love how the BGG apologist response to the bridge conceit is basically "STFU and drink the cool aid," or alternatively, an extended explication from someone who seems to be several levels deep into extreme historical simulations of the lore:

"crossing a river would be a task you'd need a corps of engineers for, who in turn require food & resources to support. Hence, the initial turns of "engine-building" before you go out to stake your claim."

... fascinating.

It was hard to resist the art on Scythe, so I didn't. We don't have a true 4x in my collection, so I don't know what I'm missing there in the difference.

I hope I can get it to the table once it arrives.

^
With this comment, I've now bumped my post rate up from "never" to "once every four years."

An astute post on BGG clarified what rubs me the wrong way about this game:

"Everyone is saying its not a full 4x game. The explore is in name only with encounter cards, and ya combat doesn't fully kill units. Its because of a game design philosophy that tries to keep building positively instead of having too much negative. When a game ends and you can see all the stuff you built, its easier to say you did something, win or lose."

It's that baby-gating that just irks me, but it's obviously something people look for in a design of this type. The stage is composed as if a bloody, destructive culture race is about to happen but that's not really what's going on at all. It's an economic engine race with a really awesomely creative artistic conceit behind it... that essentially does nothing but paint a cool backdrop and give you some mechs to move around the board.

I think I'm out.

It's a Stonemaier production, so it'll still be around for at least a couple of years, including all of those metal coins and board extensions and other production bells and whistles. Hype shield fully operational.

I understand what you're saying. I don't *think* I have a problem with that mechanic, but maybe I'll find that I do. I didn't know anything about this game until I saw a friend of mine had backed it. I fell for the art & the mechanics appeal to me. Though I'm worried it'll run a little long and heavy for my usual 2-player partner, my 16 year old son. Who knows, maybe by the time it arrives I'll have a bit more time for gaming with others.

Looks right for me, anyway. Now I just need to find someone to play with before it shows up.

In a DOAM game, if you cannot utterly annihilate your enemy, the game sucks. It's that simple. I hate the pussification of gaming these days with catch-up mechanics and "design for feelings". Fuck that. Crush enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentation of their women. It's not hard.

Player elimination can suck, yes, but only for the player who was eliminated. Being that guy sucks. BUT, if it happens because of play failure and not dumb, bad luck or bad design, you brought it entirely on yourself. All this does is teach people that taking risks has no consequence.

I'd never back a game like this, personally. Snorkels have been on vehicles since the 40's at least, so not being able to walk a bipedal robot through a river is bullshit. More so if you can't walk on any terrain types that one would reasonably consider a giant, bipedal war machine should be able to.

What happened to all of the Mike Grays, Richard Hamblins, and Richard Borgs of the world??

(side note: just saw the Borg C+C WWI trench warfare game and it looks bad ass.)

Maybe it's just culture. No civilian casualties, no carpet bombing, ultra restrictive rules of engagement...it's as if the whole world forgot how to engage in war. War sucks, and should be a last resort, but when it comes, fight relentlessly and mercilessly, employing every possible advantage until the enemy has no ability to prosecute war. Game design of late would indicate fiction following reality. Catchup mechanics. Sad. That's like calling a guys wife a whore, beating his ass, then handing him a loaded gun.

Every game needs a dose of ultra violence--otherwise, it sucks.

It's like they looked at this guy's art portfolio, saw the mechs combined with the pastoral/agrarian, had a brief flash of genius to make a similarly hybridized board game, then went all Bob Ross during play testing. Bob Ross works with Viticulture. I enjoy Viticulture. Happy vineyards. Everybody wins and drinks.

This egalitarian, approach seems absurdly anemic with giant mechs and a postwar scramble for territory and superiority (or "fame" and $75, whatever).

But yep, a large percentage of Euro players are quite likely allergic to being vulnerable to brutalization of their victory point engines by combat. Jamey knows his audience.

I read the rules and the mechanics are smooth and easy, as is to be expected, but the game as a whole is just way too defanged.

But... maybe coming at this from the Euro side of gaming expectations is an epiphany for the 10's of thousands backing it. No Feldian point salads or mancalas or contrived Mayan wheels or mystical bowl transfers. Just some Nexus Ops style, go to a place, get some resources or an objective/encounter, build stuff, spread out, aim for end game VPs. From my end of the spectrum, it's neutered. From that side of things, it's probably a breath of fresh air. Agricola with tech and territory, I guess.

I just can't stop beating this dead horse for some reason, but I'll stop. Sorry. It's just my brain's way of reconciling that amazing art with something I don't think I understand.

Our games are mostly Ameritrashy - like some others here, I come from the Heroscape community - but we have some Euro games mixed in. I'd be happy to play them but my son doesn't like the heavier ones and my dad, who prefers Euros and visits sometimes, prefers simpler set-making games like TtR, Splendor, and Guildhall. Though he used to have a thing for Power Grid, too. Anyway. Scythe would be a little - as Pete said - DOAM for him, and a non-starter, unless the Kid was already on board. My son likes two things: (1) Crushing people's spirits in head-to-head games like 'Scape, and (2) light games where he can out-calculate people, like Splendor, Colt Express, and (recently) Epic, where he sees the cards at a deeper level than I do, with my old man brain.

Anyway, I'm hoping that, with one mech foot in each world and its brilliant artwork, it'll work for us as a heavier game than what we're used to, and a reach a little outside our comfort zone. If you have an alternative to suggest, I'm all ears. If you're curious to see what else we already have (or have had), you can check out my collection at BGG, where I'm ds3272. I'd link it but no access to BGG from this computer, for reasons.

So. Alternative to Scythe, then? I hope this isn't too much thread drift. If so, apologies.