Parenting, screens and games.

Trying to figure out how screen types effects child development. My son clearly wants to play video games but he has little to no experience so far. Some iPad runners and a few minutes of Mario Kart.

But he's at that age now, three and half, and it's coming real soon. I can smell it in the air. Kids a year or so older are playing games and several of the other kids we know have their own iPads by the time they are 7. There are a lot of parents here who talk like they are good responsible parents. Any advice? How much time? What kind of policing goes on with the style of games they can play.. this kind of thing.

(Loter just posted a similar thread, so I don't know to cross-post this or what, but going in here as it was up first)

First, I don't claim to have the right answers. I figure 'its a brave new world' and all that and each parent is only doing what they _think_ is in their child's best interest. I don't limit game time because I'm a meanie or on a power trip.

As y'all are aware, my son started around age 5 when I got him that RetroDuo for SNES games. He loved it. Well, before that he was able to play apps on phones. At 7, he's fully into video games, and my daughter (4) has been exposed at a much younger age since her brother has been doing it. At this point though, she seems fine just watching videos and such during her 'technology time' and she also seems a bit more at ease transitioning out of it.

Do I think videogames are harmful or don't offer anything developmental? Well, no...so long as it's in moderation (a theme at our house). There's a bit of pushback on my end simply because his world (and ours) is so immersed in videogaming. Hell, kids in his class (2nd grade!) bust out phones and pads while waiting in line after school. Do I want him always looking over the shoulders of others? Feel like he's somehow less than because he doesn't have a phone but _only_ a library book? It's tough.

Thing is, is Minecraft better or worse than Lego? I dunno. But it's not like kids are solely playing Minecraft and we can talk physics. Sure we can do that a few times, but the lesson is learned and on to playing videogames. If not Minecraft, MK8, or WoW, or apps on moms phone in the car or at restaurants...on and on. (Next time you eat out, see how many kids are on phones. I doubt they're doing something educational)

Still, with video games you don't have the frustration of your physical lego tower breaking and having to rebuild. You don't have the experience of baiting your own hook or condition yourself to run a mile. There's a whole world out there besides looking at glowing screens...which is what he'll be doing as an adult if he wants to make any money (and the robots don't have the jobs).

So, in the end, yeah, electronics can be tools and even educational, but when they are interjected into nearly every life experience _and_ as addictive as they seem to be...yeah, I'm not with it.

Balance and moderation.

To answer your question specifically, Jacob, we currently only allow videogame time on the weekends. Usually about an hour each day Fri-Sun. Sometimes it goes a little longer. Every once in awhile we'll allow some time during the week, but that can become a 'give an inch, take a mile' situation..."I know it's Wednesday, but you let me play yesterday!"

Without family around, my wife and I could get so much more done if we let them play on devices more, so even for us there's a pull to allow it more.

And like I mentioned in Barnes' thread, he's a good kid. Like most kids he's doing what other folks want him to do (8 hours of school, stuff at home)...Is there really harm in letting him play some at home during the week? Am I swimming upstream too much?

There have been times when there are tears because some of the weekend technology time didn't happen for reasons beyond anyone's control. Would that happen if I let up more during the week?

By saying 'no' during the week, am I not allowing there to be a balance? Should we let up because he's doing so well or is he doing so well because we've got an environment where he has to do other activities as well?

I dunno, man.

Two decent books I read that covered this were Reality is Broken and The Incredible Years: A troubleshooting Guide for Children 2-8.

I haven't read them in a while but if I remember, it's not a bad thing at all. An hour a day and perferably 4 hours a week I think was considered perfectly fine. Kids need to be comfortable with computing and my 3-yr old girl, Emily, is already super comfortable with two different tablet Operating Systems. Navigating menus, scrolling, it's remarkable. I don't let her play anything violent or aggressive. She does lots of problem solving and puzzles and her pre-K instructor told me that she's way ahead of the other kids when it comes to puzzles. She says it's really rare that 3-yr olds have this level of interest in puzzles. I can't imagine it not having a result from being on tablets sometimes playing this stuff.

On the flip side, she gets really aggressive (just like her old man) when something isn't responding well, "OH COME ON!" so we keep that in check and give her head's up when she's running low on time left for using the tablet. I purposely let the battery run out too when she's using it so she learns to roll with that kind of stuff.

She doesn't necessarily prefer the tablet to toys either. She still loves books and wants me to read some to her frequently. She still builds houses and towers out of blocks. She still has a wildly active imagination when she plays with animal toys and makes them talk to each other. So I don't see any developmental narrowing because of the time on the tablet (which, again, I keep in moderation).


I should mention that I use time on the tablet as a reward system too. She doesn't get to use "black iPad" (that's my Surface) if she hasn't picked up her toys or stuff like that.

Barney, is that 4 hours a week gaming? what about other TV watching? Is that on top of it?

I think I read an article a year or so ago that said kids watch nearly 40hrs of TV a week. Is that good or bad? Not like they got fields to plow or sheep to shear with their time. Is 40hrs bad with 3-5 of videogaming dropped on top?

When I mention 'technology time' in our house, that's playing video games. We do have one family movie night a week, and allow a little TV in the morning before school, but beyond that the TV is off. There are a _ton_ of movies my kids haven't seen and far less then I did at their age.

Am I doing it wrong? Who the hell knows!?

I'm including TV time when I say an hour a day. TV or games... it doesn't matter to us. We try to limit it somewhat and these rules are occasionally broken, of course.

It would be easy to plop him down in front of the TV and get household chores done... but what we do instead is one person gets the chores and the other plays with our child.

I do the playing normally, unless the chores really suck.

I also am unsure if I'm doing this right, who isn't?

Thanks for the book mentions Barney, I'll check if they have them at the library.

40 hours is way too much a week for TV. I think I read that you can't do more than 4 hours a day for a kid. The video games and TV are considered the same I think when trying to limit the timing of this stuff.

So yeah, I think 40 hours is bad especially if you're not including video gaming. Start by trying to bring it down to 1 hour of video gaming and 3 additional hours of TV (for a total of 4) per day. I think that'll be a big help. More than that, i don't know how you don't get some form of ADD if you are continuously bombarded with fun and easy signals.

You do as you like, Jeff, I'm sure you're an excellent and caring father. If you wanted a suggestion, I'd cut the TV before school, I can't think of a worse time to watch TV when they're going to be listening to a teacher and trying to focus on that an hour later. The teacher can't compete with the earlier stimuli they got that day.

Family movie night is a great idea, just like family game night. You can interact in family movie night so there's no trouble there. Family time together is always good.

My opinion on this is simple: avoid the i-pad for as long as possible. You will lose him to a tablet in less then 10 years anyhow. Spend time TOGETHER as much as possible until this happens. Play games together. Go outside. Even video games TOGETHER is fine. Stay away from the crack, man!

engineer Al wrote: Stay away from the crack, man!

We limit the crack to 15 minutes a day.

On the books I mentionned:

Reality is Broken - is a very pro-gaming book. The author is convinced that the gamification of society is happening and we'll see more and more of this and TONS of good can come from it when deployed correctly (my company is currently exploring this and we're in Group Savings and Retirement for crying out loud). It lightly touches on the benefits of kids playing games. It's a very interesting read regardless.

The Incredible Years - A Troubleshooting guide for children aged 2-8 - is an amazing book. It's the most recommended (and tough to get) book from child psychologists on how to stack the deck in your kids favour during these most important years of your kids developing and eventually cementing their personalities. There's a bit on TV and I found it very helpful.

I'm certainly not going to tell anyone how they should raise their kids, it's kind of like spirituality- do what works for you.

But I will say this. I think the #1 slip-up that parents make in approaching video games, TV, movies, iDevices or any other form of entertainment is to assume that these things have power over our children's minds. There is nothing about any of this stuff that renders even a very small child unable to discern right from wrong, good from bad, excess from moderation. Sure, there are certain emotional and psychological responses- even addiction- that can come from video games or whatever, but if you treat this stuff like invasive, mind-controlling evil then that's exactly what it will be.

The #2 thing that parents get wrong about video games is not knowing jack shit about them or not caring about them. This is when you get parents buying 10 year olds GTA or whatever, or letting them go off into their rooms all day to play DS as a babysitting surrogate. I know all about games, I'm involved with games, and I play games with them. I got them all of this Skylanders stuff and by gum I'll likely be playing it the whole time with them.

My kids have been playing games and watching TV (mostly movies and shows I sort of curate for them, not much of the random kid crap that's on these days) since they were as young as one. I never treat this stuff like it somehow controls their minds and somehow disables their ability to make good decisions and lead balanced lives where these things are PART of life but never the CENTER or MAJORITY of it. From very early on, I established with my kids a few rules about video games, for example:

1) If you ask to play it, the answer is automatically no because we can find something else to do. Dad decides when we can play.
2) Video games are best played with friends or family, but it is OK if there is nothing else to do to play alone. Dad will play with you whenever possible.
3) If there is something that NEEDS to be done, we do that first.
4) When Dad says it's off, it's off. No exceptions.
5) We don't worry about or stress out over video games, including whenever the next time to play them might be.
6) If it's a nice day outside, video games are off. Period.

It really helps that I play games, understand them, and know how to be effective about policing them.

We have had a couple of incidents where River in particular has gotten really upset or angry when we take the iPad away when he won't surrender it. So that just means that he's off it for a week or more. Scarlett doesn't really care as much about it.

The big problem we have is with grandparents. My mom and dad come to see them and bring their iPads. So they will sit in our living room playing iPad crap with them (NONE of which I've approved or selected so it's all of this asinine shit like cats that repeat what you say or whatever) literally for hours. But what I found that works is to SHAME the kids for allowing that to happen. One time, after my parents left I took River and Scarlett aside and told them I was really disappointed that they sat and played with the iPads all day. I showed them that it was a good day to play outside and asked them why they didn't tell grandma and papa that they wanted to draw, go to the park, go to the ice cream shop, read books or do something else. River got really sad because I showed him how he had missed out on doing OTHER things he would have liked to do.

But this happens with my wife's parents too, they do the same thing. And for some reason, this sense I've got instilled in them to realize when they've had enough doesn't work during grandparents time.

WHich is is kind of weird, because both of them will say "I'm done with the iPad" or "I'm ready to do something else", usually in a reasonable time. Some of it may be because we have older parents that aren't really as active or engaged as we are, they're not down in the floor playing board games or out in the yard with them or whatever.

So it's really all about finding the right balance and both TRAINING and TRUSTING kids' judgement and discernment to self-manage. Rather than flip out about video games, limit them to 10 minutes a day (I mean, come on...that's just not even realistic), act like they are somehow melting kids' minds away or any other silly overreaction like that, give your kids the ability to make a decision to turn it off for themselves. If you act like these things have power over your kids and you don't let your kids learn to manage their time with them, then they WILL have power over your kids.

As far as TV and movies go, I think there's a big difference between watching a FILM and watching a TV show. And that translates into how I manage that with River and Scarlett.

If they want to watch a FILM- Toy Story 3, Iron Giant, Kiki's Delivery Service, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, whatever...I'm almost always totally fine with that as long as they couldn't be playing outside or doing something constructive like a craft project or something.

I don't rush in to turn it off after they've seen 20 minutes because of some kind of silly daily quota or whatever...because they are watching a FILM and they deserve both the respect to be able to see the whole thing as well as the ability to watch as much of it as they want. Film is an art form, and to limit watching movies is like telling kids they can only see part of a painting or that they can only look at it for so long.

With TV, it's very different IMO. Even with really good shows like Rebels or Clone Wars, we don't allow binge watching. Shows are short, and your time with them should be the same. But there again, let them see the whole thing FFS. Don't rush in halfway through an episode to turn it off.

What we DO limit is exposure to a lot of the really obnoxious, empty kids programming that's out there. Like the fucking Bubble Guppies. That is the best example of a show that has pretty much NOTHING of value to offer to children. There's no storytelling, the pace is frantic, and it's all basically like the Happy Little Elves on the Simpsons- characters jumping up and down and making funny sounds to keep small children's attention until the commercials come on.

Not to say that all of the current kids'shows are bad. I think Sofia the First is really good, I like watching that with Scarlett- it's basically Disney princess meets Harry Potter. Light fantasy, fun characters (Tim Gunn), moral stories. Yo Gabba Gabba is awesome- you can't beat life lessons like "don't bite your friends" or "hold still"- and it's great that they have REAL BANDS playing REAL MUSIC on there, not god damn Squiggleman or whatever singing about peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Rescue Bots is a fun, non-violent way to do Transformers...no Megatron, they just battle, like, avalanches and stuff.

I do not like Caillou, but they like it and I've come to appreciate that it's a very gentle, very relatable show for young kids. They like Daniel Tiger too, which is basically the evolution of Mr. Roger's Neighborhood.

We do let them watch older kids shows- Power Rangers, TMNT, Rebels, My Little Pony...and some of the old fashioned cartoons from our childhood- Dungeons and Dragons, He-Man/She-Ra, Gummi Bears, Duck Tales, etc...but watching all of this stuff is more of a family affair

Black Barney wrote: She says it's really rare that 3-yr olds have this level of interest in puzzles. I can't imagine it not having a result from being on tablets sometimes playing this stuff.

I'm not one who thinks that it is necessarily bad for a child to spend time playing video games or using a tablet. However, I would be careful how much you attribute to the medium versus the activity. For instance, our 2 and 1/2 year old is already putting together 50 piece puzzles and she has learned the "old-fashioned" way with big puzzles on the floor. She doesn't even need help anymore -- just dumps it out and assembles it.

Barnes, like most of us, your post has some good in it and sounds like you're doing what best works for y'all.

The only issue I take is that I don't think any of us are saying it's evil or mind controlling, but that it is addictive and it is everywhere. There does need to be limits in place (like you seem to also impose) or the kids will 'eat ice cream all the time' to paraphrase jacob.

(I was joking about the old folks v videogames)

Take for the example with your grandparents. Without dad being 'the authority' at that point they apparently defaulted to playing app games all day. Not judging the kids, mine would likely do the same.

But what I think we're all trying to do is to find a way to allow the kids to regulate themselves. I hope that by limiting it they'll be able to find peace doing something else, you choose to shame them when they make a poor decision. I think we (the parents posting) are all trying to achieve the same thing. _None_ of us are saying 'no videogames' or that they are evil, but the struggle to teach the kids balance.

I do think parents need to be informed and we're very involved. The kids aren't up in their rooms playing, but down in the living room with the family. During their tech time, I'm sure to ask them what they built/are watching/what place they came in, etc. And that is if I'm not playing with them. However, when the tech is away I'll talk about Minecraft a little, and bring it up some myself, but not all week til the next fix.

If you have kids under 3 (or maybe even 4), I highly recommend the "Endless Alphabet" and "Endless Number" apps --basically the letters and numbers teach sounds, definitions, addition, counting. The cool thing is the letter and numbers are monsters that laugh and talk -- our daughter loves it.

As for TV, I pretty much agree with Barnes. We allow more FILM activities that are watching an entire movie (which often consists of doing a lot of playing with the TV on in the background) a couple times a week. In terms of TV shows, there is PBS Kids -- Sesame Street, Daniel Tiger, and Dinosaur Train (probably the favorite right now, she loves the conductor).