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× Talk abut Movies & TV here. Just tell us what you have been watching. Have hyper-academic discussions on visual semiotics. Whatever, it's all good.

Can you still love the George?

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05 Jan 2016 14:24 - 05 Jan 2016 14:26 #219082 by Michael Barnes
Gosh, more hand-wringing and anti-hype wisdom about this movie...call me a bumpkin, but I just plain liked it, OK?

Yes, it's derivative, but so was the original Star Wars movie.

This is the POINT that no one doing the hand-wringing and offering the sage, critical wisdom about this movie is getting. Lucas himself was just as much of a forger, homage artist, rebooter and reassembler as Abrams is. But his source material was different. Abrams' source material- willfully and intentionally- is the popular myth of Star Wars.

Something to consider. There has been as much time between A New Hope and The Force Awakens as there had been between A New Hope and the Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers serials it was in part inspired by. And more time between A New Hope and the Kurosawa films.

If you will remember, Star Wars almost didn't get made because it was considered so derivative, unoriginal and "hokey". Lucas' tenacity and dedication to the first film is probably more significant than his "world building", which quite frankly has as much to do with what other creators like Lawrence Kasdan brought to it than anything Lucas did as a film director.
Last edit: 05 Jan 2016 14:26 by Michael Barnes.

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05 Jan 2016 14:32 #219084 by OldHippy
Nah, there's a huge difference between making a derivative world inspired by your heros and just writing a derivative story in someone else's world.

At least George tried, we all stand on the shoulders of our ancestors. Abrams just takes your shoulders.

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05 Jan 2016 14:32 #219085 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Can you still love the George?
I don't owe the guy anything, jeez. He made some good movies: STAR WARS, AMERICAN GRAFITTI, TUCKER. He made some absolute clunkers: PHANTOM MENACE, HOWARD THE DUCK, WILLOW.

Yeah, STAR WARS is super fun, it's homage to swashbuckling pirate movies, funneled through the monomyth and Kurosawa is all good film school stuff. But we don't have to forgive the guy everything. He made some absolute turds that tainted his legacy. His writing is notoriously poor. His direction is limp. This is true in STAR WARS and anything else he maintained total control over.

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05 Jan 2016 14:38 - 05 Jan 2016 14:39 #219086 by Mr. White

Michael Barnes wrote: Something to consider. There has been as much time between A New Hope and The Force Awakens as there had been between A New Hope and the Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers serials it was in part inspired by. And more time between A New Hope and the Kurosawa films.


True, but Flash Gordon and Co had fallen out of fashion some decades prior to when A New Hope dropped. Since ANH, Star Wars has never gone away. Comics, videogames, novels, figures...it's been an endless cash cow. Maybe, Maybe there was a brief period between the last Ewok tv movie and some EU novel, but surely not much. A year? two?

You are right though. I've got no more hand-wring to do. It's not anti-hype, just disappointment on my end. I didn't feel like 'Star Wars is back, baby!' after I saw TFA because it was too familiar with its own franchise. Maybe that level of homage is lost on me. I surely didn't care for Escape From LA or give it a pass. It was almost the same damn flick as EfNY. I didn't think 'Snake is back, baby!'

I did feel more excitement after my first viewing of The Phantom Menace than I did after The Force Awakens.

Again, not looking to tear down anyone's enjoyment, just expressing my own disappointment in what could have been an amazing new chapter in the SW universe.

Carry on then.
Last edit: 05 Jan 2016 14:39 by Mr. White.

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05 Jan 2016 14:49 #219089 by OldHippy

jeb wrote: I don't owe the guy anything, jeez. He made some good movies: STAR WARS, AMERICAN GRAFITTI, TUCKER. He made some absolute clunkers: PHANTOM MENACE, HOWARD THE DUCK, WILLOW.

Yeah, STAR WARS is super fun, it's homage to swashbuckling pirate movies, funneled through the monomyth and Kurosawa is all good film school stuff. But we don't have to forgive the guy everything. He made some absolute turds that tainted his legacy. His writing is notoriously poor. His direction is limp. This is true in STAR WARS and anything else he maintained total control over.


I liked Howard the Duck. But that's besides the point.

I don't think you owe him anything, but I also don't think he owes us anything, including un-edited versions of his original movies. I am not literally saying 'love George' so much as saying that all the 'fuck George' sentiment out there sounds like childish nerd rage with a tinge of self entitlement. He's a human being. I was very tempted (but I won't waste my time) to write a pretend letter from George directly to F:AT as a blog because the anger and vitriol sent his way was something I personally found distasteful.

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05 Jan 2016 14:54 - 05 Jan 2016 14:55 #219091 by OldHippy

mads b. wrote: How can anybody compare Lucas to Tolkien as a world builder and expect to be taken seriously?


For me it's pretty simple. First, Tolkien never wrote a second trilogy so bringing the prequels into the discussion is odd, and most importantly I don't like his world as much as Georges. I'm not a big LOTR fan and I've never purchased a video or boardgame based in that world for that reason - I prefer the movies because in my mind they fixed his clunky story and didn't have his turgid over long descriptions. But his world is, like George's, a homage to the myths he grew up with. It's not entirely original either. He translated Beowulf and the Green Knight for example, he was very familiar with the myths of old. I see them as equals, neither were particularly good at telling stories in my opinion and both created great worlds that people love. George actually created more worlds than Tolkien if you want to count Indiana Jones, Willow, THX1138...
Last edit: 05 Jan 2016 14:55 by OldHippy.

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05 Jan 2016 15:29 #219092 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Can you still love the George?

JonJacob wrote: I don't think you owe him anything, but I also don't think he owes us anything, including un-edited versions of his original movies. I am not literally saying 'love George' so much as saying that all the 'fuck George' sentiment out there sounds like childish nerd rage with a tinge of self entitlement. He's a human being. I was very tempted (but I won't waste my time) to write a pretend letter from George directly to F:AT as a blog because the anger and vitriol sent his way was something I personally found distasteful.

That's fair, and I agree. I have probably sent some nasty rhetoric his way, because I felt hoodwinked by those Prequels. They are just awful trash movies--they really are. If they weren't STAR WARS, we'd be talking about them like EQUILIBRIUM or ROBOCOP 2 or other rancid fare that gets a pass because of gunkata or robots or whatever. I got excited for those Prequels, and I was disappointed colossally. Lesson learned, I am now more jaded and less likely to let rose be the color of my nostalgia.

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05 Jan 2016 15:35 #219094 by Egg Shen
A few things...

Are we really going to quibble about the slightly confusing politics of this new film? Is that really the problem? Most of this will probably get fleshed out further down the road. Maybe the next director will take another feather out of Lucas' mighty cap and have two characters explain the politics in detail while sitting on a fucking couch in a room made entirely of CG bullshit.

I'm fine with giving respect to Lucas for the original Star Wars Trilogy. However, I'm not fine with suddenly heaping praise upon him because he "had the balls" to try something new and different with the prequels. The Prequels were ALL incredibly poorly written, directed, and acted films. Anakin becoming Vader wasn't a story worth telling in a single movie...let alone three. It's hard to get all tight in the pants over a trilogy that we all knew was gonna end with an actor turning into Vader. It COULD have been a fun ride at the very least. Instead, the prequels were the epitome of what was wrong with blockbusters for so many years. They were all style for the sake of style and abso-fucking-lutely no substance whatsoever. The new film doesn't suddenly make you love him because it's a rejiggered New Hope. Instead it serves as a callous reminder to just how fucking out of touch Lucas had become.

Also, I really don't understand all of this shitbagging of Abrams either. He is suddenly a worthless piece of shit filmmaker because he doesn't come up with his own ideas? News flash. There are no new ideas in Hollywood. Studios don't hand over $200 million to a director and say, "go create a new world for us". All big movies are based on existing properties in some way shape or form. Abrams didn't create anything in his Star Wars? He created a handful of awesome new characters that are actually interesting and you want to see where their story goes. He created BB-8. There is plenty of new stuff in the film to get excited about.

Let's not act like it's easy to have done what Abrams did. People make it sound like what he did was child's play. That any fool who knew jack shit about Star Wars could have done it. Bullshit. Abrams is far from some visionary auteur, but he still nailed the Herculean task set out before him. The movie is derivative of a New Hope ON PURPOSE. Not because he was content with ripping off Lucas. Because it makes sense in the mythology of the franchise and the characters within the film. The movie does this on an almost meta level. It's directly dealing with angry fans as well as people who grew up worshiping Star Wars for the past 30 years. It's pretty damn clever. So clever in fact that most people are oblivious to it.

I think Lucas coming out with all of these butthurt interviews about how he felt like he, "sold his children (Star Wars) to white slavers" is ridiculous. He sold his company/ideas for like 4 billion dollars to another company he absolutely knew was going to use the IP. If he wants people to take him seriously as a filmmaker/idea-man once more...go make some fucking films.
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05 Jan 2016 16:12 #219096 by Space Ghost
Heh -- I agree with JJ and Egg.

I don't think Lucas owes anyone shit; however, if he wants to be regarded as one of the "giants" that came out of the 70s then go make some movies.

While the prequels might have been poorly written and acted, there were some interesting ideas in there -- they were just poorly executed. Generally, I like that kind of thing -- like I like playing a weird boardgame that doesn't necessarily have all the modern "smoothness" to it.

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05 Jan 2016 16:14 #219097 by Sagrilarus

Michael Barnes wrote: Lucas himself was just as much of a forger, homage artist, rebooter and reassembler as Abrams is. But his source material was different.


. . . with the noted exception that he rehosted it in a vastly different world than the original settings. Part of what hit me over the head in the original film (I was 13 at the time) was that it was both completely foreign and completely understandable at the same time. That was the new piece that Lucas brought to the state of the art. Yes Star Wars is a simple story based on traditional premises, but it's happening on a space ship that has mismatched replacement parts and a golden retriever flying it. I know you waved your hand at it when I mentioned that the new film didn't bring new gee-wiz into the mix, but that was a big part of the success of Star Wars. That was the hook that brought people into the theater at the time, not a deep, profound chin scratcher of a storyline.

The new film is about the story, not the characters. I liked it (not see it twice in the theater level of liked it, but liked it), but I was hoping for some new space ships and some new gizmos and widgets. All I got was a flying granite countertop and a powdered loaf of bread. I think they missed a chance to make more cool stuff. The option was there, I just think they didn't choose to emphasize it.

S.
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05 Jan 2016 16:17 - 05 Jan 2016 16:20 #219098 by OldHippy

Egg Shen wrote: The movie does this on an almost meta level. It's directly dealing with angry fans as well as people who grew up worshiping Star Wars for the past 30 years. It's pretty damn clever. So clever in fact that most people are oblivious to it.


Great post Egg! I do think that Abrams was stuck between a rock and a hard place. There wasn't much wiggle room and he had to hit it out of the park right away. I'm sure I'll like the film when I eventually do see it (or did I already see it 35 years ago ;) ?). He had to please all the fans and make a blockbuster and he did it. I totally respect what he's done with the Trek films even though I don't like them. He made it relevant again and that can't be an easy task. I don't think he had much choice in this, he made the film he had to make and there was probably a ton of pressure from Disney to keep it familiar...

But for me, I'd like Star Wars more if George was more like Bill Watterson. If he just shut down the IP entirely when his trilogy was done and didn't let anyone touch it. As is we have to deal with years worth of stuff that can't possibly tell one cohesive story. It's become a playground for thousands of nerds around the globe in RPG's, video games, board and card games, action figures... it's out of control.
Last edit: 05 Jan 2016 16:20 by OldHippy.

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05 Jan 2016 16:52 #219107 by the_jake_1973
BB-8 was created by Blue Sky Studios for the movie Robots. Except he was named Bigweld.

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05 Jan 2016 16:56 #219108 by RobertB
Egg Shen wrote:

Studios don't hand over $200 million to a director and say, "go create a new world for us".


Jupiter Ascending is the exception that proves the rule there. $176M. The rest of your post hits the nail right on the head, though.
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05 Jan 2016 17:04 #219110 by Egg Shen
Ha! In the back of my head Jupiter Ascending was one of the few movies that popped into my head when I wrote that sentence. That and Pacific Rim specifically. I was like...nah, no studio was stupid enough to give the Wachowski's more than $150 million for that idea. Damn a 176 million??? In any case...I think they've officially ruined big expensive new IPs for everyone for a few years.

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05 Jan 2016 17:48 #219111 by stoic
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