Batman, mass murderer.

Michael Barnes wrote: What does it say about _audiences_, not a vague conception of "our world today" or whatever when a character that upholds positive morals, truth, justice and fighting for good is viewed as "corny" and needs to be reimagined into a violent, cynical and amoral figure?

It goes beyond movie audiences. The western world has a lot of fear and anger right now. How else can one explain Donald Trump's enduring appeal? (Though I'd tack on people's naive fascination with celebrity and reality TV to partially explain his appeal.)

Snyder made a shitty, detestable movie, but it wasn't a bad business decision by WB to appeal to that segment of movie goers.

Shellhead wrote: For the second half of the '80s, DC managed to surpass Marvel in terms of quality. ... Marvel, despite being the more popular of the two companies for the vast majority of the last 50 years, has never published a truly great comic on the level with Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, or Kingdom Come.

I think those are fair statements. The funny thing about the original Crisis was that it brought John Byrne to Superman and he DID try to present him as "human first, superhero second" and the editorial team at DC revolted and Byrne got frustrated and left. Then they started in with the Death of Superman and Spinal Injury Batman horseshit in the Chromium Cover 90s and it was all over. A couple interesting notes about two of the three works cited above: most of editorial at DC also hated DKR because they thought it went too far, but Miller was the hot name of the industry at the time and it, of course, was the first comic ever reviewed in the Washington Post, so it turned out to be the right call. Moore wanted to use the Charlton Comics heroes for his story (Capt. Atom = Dr. Manhattan, The Question = Rorschach, The Comedian = Peacemaker, etc.) but DC wanted to make regular DC heroes out of all of them, so he had to rewrite it with thinly-veiled pastiches of them. The executive level didn't like Watchmen (I had a fairly reliable source saying that it was because "superheroes are for kids!") but that was one of the first books that Karen Berger really fought for, using Moore's unparalleled run on Swamp Thing as an example of how it could sell. That book and Delano's work on Hellblazer laid the groundwork for Sandman and the creation of Vertigo which is, collectively, the best thing that DC Comics has ever done.

I will add, however, that Marvel's work with Epic Illustrated and some of the comics that emerged from that (Coyote, Alien Legion, et al) was spectacular and rivals some of that great output from DC, even if (or perhaps because) it didn't involve superheroes.

Jackwraith wrote: I will add, however, that Marvel's work with Epic Illustrated and some of the comics that emerged from that (Coyote, Alien Legion, et al) was spectacular and rivals some of that great output from DC, even if (or perhaps because) it didn't involve superheroes.

The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen were milestones, no doubt about it, but you're right, Marvel did have some high quality work during that time period as well. I would put Elektra: Assassin up against anything from that era.

Count me as another fan of Byrne's Superman reboot, by the way. The character desperately needed it, and the godawful mess DC made of Superman later only shows the quality--and I don't know, restraint?--that Byrne's run had.

I just saw the movie last night, and while there were things to like about it--Wonder Woman, for example, and did that ever surprise me--it was just so unrelentingly BLEAK. This superhero movie for kids makes The Road seem like fucking Amelie.

It was just one mopey, downer, often slow-motion scene after another. After like an hour of this I finally cracked when Clark Kent's dead father is recounting his recurring nightmares of hearing screaming, dying horses while he delivers the lesson that there is no such thing as heroism. I couldn't take it, I had to laugh. I feel bad because I hate it when people pull that shit in theaters, but it wasn't derisive or meant to be disruptive. It just burst forth like a sob before I could stifle it.

After the movie I felt a lot like after watching the Star Wars prequels: amazing at the magnitude of craft and artistry put to work in service to a banal, stupid script.

I wish this movie was made for kids. I'd love to have a Batman/Superman film I could take my children to see. Even the Marvel films are a touch too adult for them at their ages, so if DC is trying to counter-program, why not something aimed at more of a Big Hero 6 demographic? I don't give a rats ass about seeing a Batman/Superman made for angry, disenchanted 18-25 year olds. Or for 40+ year old "visionary directors" that claim to be "comic book guys".

DC going dark and gritty worked against Marvel in the 80s because they had great creative teams and the work was either graphic novels outside of the monthlies or new books that were deliberately more mature. Not so much going back and making Superman a killer.

All of this just makes me think of Morrison's statement in Animal Man, when Animal Man (who has turned "dark" by putting on a black leather costume and becoming very psycho) meets Grant Morrison and he goes off on "mature" comics...he lambasts the cruelty, violence and mean-spiritedness that was endemic at the time. "Why didn't we just try being kind?" He asks.

Grant Morrison was on Kevin Smith's Fatman on Batman podcast awhile back, and his take on Superman and his first encounter with him damn near brought tears to my eyes. Growing up in Scottland when he did, his parents were very distrustful of the U.S. nuclear submarines that were practically in their backyard. The U.S. Navy guys brought comics with them though, and young Grant was drawn to Superman, because what could stop this horrible nuclear threat his parents were always going on about? Superman. Now I'm a HUGE fan of his All-Star Superman, and I heard that and I thought, "Man, no wonder why he gets Superman."

As far as kid friendly Batmans go...How fucking WONDERFUL is Brave and the Bold? I love that cartoon!

Is it wrong if I kind of like it better than BTAS?

It's BRILLIANT. And hilarious!

Favorite moments-

- Green Arrow using Plastic Man as a bow to shoot Guy Gardner as an arrow

- BAT MITE telling off a blobby fanboy upset with the lighter tone of Batman in the show

- Aquaman's family vacation

- Doom Patrol!

- Catman (!) commenting on Batman's breath..."look, I had tacos for dinner".

I have all the DVDs, going to watch tonight.

Michael Barnes wrote: I wish this movie was made for kids. I'd love to have a Batman/Superman film I could take my children to see. Even the Marvel films are a touch too adult for them at their ages, so if DC is trying to counter-program, why not something aimed at more of a Big Hero 6 demographic? I don't give a rats ass about seeing a Batman/Superman made for angry, disenchanted 18-25 year olds. Or for 40+ year old "visionary directors" that claim to be "comic book guys".

DC going dark and gritty worked against Marvel in the 80s because they had great creative teams and the work was either graphic novels outside of the monthlies or new books that were deliberately more mature. Not so much going back and making Superman a killer.

All of this just makes me think of Morrison's statement in Animal Man, when Animal Man (who has turned "dark" by putting on a black leather costume and becoming very psycho) meets Grant Morrison and he goes off on "mature" comics...he lambasts the cruelty, violence and mean-spiritedness that was endemic at the time. "Why didn't we just try being kind?" He asks.

What are talking about ? My 7 year old and 5 year old boys love the new Batman... it's totally appropriate

www.traileraddict.com/the-lego-batman-movie/teaser-trailer-b

Jackwraith wrote: I will add, however, that Marvel's work with Epic Illustrated and some of the comics that emerged from that (Coyote, Alien Legion, et al) was spectacular and rivals some of that great output from DC, even if (or perhaps because) it didn't involve superheroes.

Dreadstar was amazing and the Six from Sirus minis were enjoyable. I liked Alien Legion at the time, but none of the other Epic titles made a strong impression on me. I should probably back track and take another look at Epic titles.

Back when I reviewed Man of Steel on my blog, I expressed dismay that THIS was the Superman my son was going to grow up with, a sociopath for whom there was never any restraint, and who showed none of the compassion or humanity that actually makes Superman worth the trouble.

I would pay good money to see a mainstream superhero movie that was light and goofy. At this point it would feel positively rebellious to make one that is bright and colorful, maybe with a solid PG rating. I keep hoping all of the reboots of Fantastic Four will eventually find this out.

And yes, Batman - Brave and the Bold is a terrific show. I think my kids have watched the one with Scooby-Doo maybe fifty times.

Today I watched the first episode of Superman: TAS with my three-year-old, and he spent the rest of the afternoon racing around the house wearing a cape, and we even got to have a little talk how Superman doesn't like to hit people, but wants to help them.

I don't think that I ever appreciated Superman until Superman: TAS.

Shellhead wrote: I don't think that I ever appreciated Superman until Superman: TAS.

Batman: TAS generally got more critical attention, but for my money, I liked Superman: TAS better. Tim Daly brought a lot of warmth to the character, and even some self-deprecating humor once in a while. I never liked the new guy they brought in to voice Supes for Justice League. He souded angry all the time.

Clancy Brown is also severely underrated as Lex Luthor. His work is a lot more understated so he doesn't get the credit he deserves for embodying an iconic version of Luthor.

That aside, one of the most frustrating things about BvS is how themes that would be legitimately interesting if they were developed and explored are introduced and dropped because Snyder is either not interested or doesn't have the ability to execute them. Batman fighting the room full of thugs and Wonder Woman fighting Doomsday were the only moments where I approached enjoying myself. And Eisenberg's Luthor is a pale copy of Ledger's Joker, but less coherent. When your villain's plan is less comprehensible than the Joker's, your movie's got problems.

I'm one of those rare people who prefer Lobo over Deadpool for my grimdark character parody fix. Loved the Superman:TAS episodes with him. That part where Supes punches him and he falls through every floor of the building he lands on, saying, "Fraggin' bastich" all the way down? Awesome.

I own all the Batman TAS DVDs. I think it's past due I get the Superman ones.