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× Talk abut Movies & TV here. Just tell us what you have been watching. Have hyper-academic discussions on visual semiotics. Whatever, it's all good.

Batman, mass murderer.

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31 Mar 2016 15:40 - 31 Mar 2016 15:46 #225073 by boothwah
Replied by boothwah on topic Batman, mass murderer.
I've always been in the MMMS since I was a wee lad. Spider-man, marvel Two in One and the Avengers were the books I rode my bike down to the 7-11 to snatch off the rack before anyone else beat me to them.

I think Marvel has always had it easier because their heroes were created as people first, who happened to get powers - they all had their foibles and were easier to relate to. And they didn't have as long of a backlog as DC had to have with their core heroes.

Superman alone was a nightmare, I'm sure, for writers to deal with because 40 years of him being all-powerful....amnesia causing kisses, super ventriloquism, super midgets, etc



The DC Characters are all archetypes - They're gods. And gods are pretty boring. Unless they fall. Which is why all those top-tier stories that you listed earlier (DKR, Watchmen, Kingdom Come etc.) are huge departures from the norm, and they are seen as universally great because the gods fall. By having a pantheon of the all-powerful superlatives there really is only one direction for them to go.

Marvel, on the other hand, has tons of stories about dudes overcoming crap - and dealing with everyman problems - The FF is a family, Peter Parker deals with money problems, school problems, etc - Even the god Thor is periodically taken down a notch for his pride and arrogance.

The reason that DC keeps having to reboot - Outside of origins, year ones, and THE END OF ALL THINGS, there aren't that many compelling stories to tell about those archetypes.

Byrnes's Supes was the best btw. He depowered him, humanized him, and generally made uber-man entertaining. But DC editorial....

I was really enjoying Bruce being dead. Dick and Damian were really developing a a cool new groove. But DC Editorial...
Last edit: 31 Mar 2016 15:46 by boothwah.
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01 Apr 2016 12:14 #225100 by Varys
Replied by Varys on topic Batman, mass murderer.
First of all, let me say that I have zero desire to see this movie. I have, however, every desire to watch it be a massive failure. Like many of you, I loved all the old cartoons (including the Hanna Barbera ones) and the Nolan movies. The best Superman-Batman stories were the ones put out by Bruce Timm...not just World's Finest but also the few episodes from the TV series. For me, this topic and these characters have meant a lot to me as I grew up.

When WB announced Snyder was making Man of Steel, I cringed immensely. I thought 300 was godawful and all the crap that he put out afterward just further solidified my opinion. I knew he was just going to butcher this with little to no concern about the franchise. So, hopefully it tanks this weekend and we can move onto other things, but sadly, he's set a precedent for the franchise that's not going to go away for a long time. By the way, this image sums up this movie in a nutshell:

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01 Apr 2016 13:21 #225108 by Michael Barnes
Unfortunately, the ship has sailed. $500 million opening. Which sends a message to the WB/DC execs that audiences want this kind of hateful, negative trash that jettisons any notions of humanity, hope and heroism.

But then you've also got folks working on other DC properties coming right out and distancing themselves from the tone of BVS, stating that there films would be "different". So maybe there's a glimmer of hope that Aquaman will be light and fun like Ant-Man. Well, probably not...

Kevin Smith had something astute to say (imagine that)...he said that Snyder calls himself a "comic book guy", but it appears for all intents and purposes that he's only ever read one comic book...TDKR. And took everything he knows about superheroes from that. Of course, we can assume that he read 300 at some point, but I think what Smith is saying here really resonates.
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01 Apr 2016 13:40 - 01 Apr 2016 13:42 #225110 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Batman, mass murderer.
Didn't ASM 2 make a boatload of money as well, but was still considered a failure and effectively killed all the plans to franchise characters out of that universe? I thought I read something like BvS would need to make close to a billion to start turning a profit, but I have no idea.

What I do know is that I grew up a Marvel kid and in the dark days of the 70s, 80s, and early 90s we had terrible movies, When WB bought DC I figured Marvel would never be able to compete at the box office. Oddly enough, it looks like the Marvel owned studio is making better films than the ancient WB behemoth.

In the end though, it means nothing to me or my kids. I was never a DC guy and the kids only know Batman, Supes, etc from passing by the toys at Target as they head to Frozen or Pokemon. Like I've mentioned before...these are different times. A given superhero or team doesn't occupy as much fan space as in decades past...too much competition from other lines and universes. Does it really matter that the pretend universe my son dives into is in the Kanto Region rather than Metropolis or Gotham? Nope.
Last edit: 01 Apr 2016 13:42 by Mr. White.

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01 Apr 2016 13:43 #225111 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Batman, mass murderer.

Michael Barnes wrote: Unfortunately, the ship has sailed. $500 million opening. Which sends a message to the WB/DC execs that audiences want this kind of hateful, negative trash that jettisons any notions of humanity, hope and heroism.

But then you've also got folks working on other DC properties coming right out and distancing themselves from the tone of BVS, stating that there films would be "different". So maybe there's a glimmer of hope that Aquaman will be light and fun like Ant-Man. Well, probably not...

Kevin Smith had something astute to say (imagine that)...he said that Snyder calls himself a "comic book guy", but it appears for all intents and purposes that he's only ever read one comic book...TDKR. And took everything he knows about superheroes from that. Of course, we can assume that he read 300 at some point, but I think what Smith is saying here really resonates.


Supposedly they are shooting new scenes and/or re-shooting existing scenes for Suicide Squad to inject more humor into that movie. That sounds promising, as Suicide Squad would be a good potential match for the dark humor style of Deadpool.

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01 Apr 2016 13:49 - 01 Apr 2016 13:49 #225112 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Batman, mass murderer.

Shellhead wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: Unfortunately, the ship has sailed. $500 million opening. Which sends a message to the WB/DC execs that audiences want this kind of hateful, negative trash that jettisons any notions of humanity, hope and heroism.

But then you've also got folks working on other DC properties coming right out and distancing themselves from the tone of BVS, stating that there films would be "different". So maybe there's a glimmer of hope that Aquaman will be light and fun like Ant-Man. Well, probably not...

Kevin Smith had something astute to say (imagine that)...he said that Snyder calls himself a "comic book guy", but it appears for all intents and purposes that he's only ever read one comic book...TDKR. And took everything he knows about superheroes from that. Of course, we can assume that he read 300 at some point, but I think what Smith is saying here really resonates.


Supposedly they are shooting new scenes and/or re-shooting existing scenes for Suicide Squad to inject more humor into that movie. That sounds promising, as Suicide Squad would be a good potential match for the dark humor style of Deadpool.


The whole premise of the Deadpool film was dark humor...I find it hard to believe that inserting a few collegehumor jokes into Suicide Squad is going to feel anywhere near as organic as the humor did in Deadpool.
Last edit: 01 Apr 2016 13:49 by Mr. White.

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01 Apr 2016 13:56 #225113 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Batman, mass murderer.
From the trailer that I saw weeks ago, it appeared that Suicide Squad already had some dark humor. More would certainly be welcome, especially after the grimfest of Batman v Superman, but I agree that it's very unlikely that Suicide Squad will be as funny as Deadpool.

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01 Apr 2016 14:12 - 01 Apr 2016 14:17 #225114 by Varys
Replied by Varys on topic Batman, mass murderer.
WB wants to go back and re-shoot scenes to add more jokes to a movie about convicted criminals with the word "Suicide" in its title so that it can be funnier and lighter than a movie about Batman and Superman that was just released and received shit reviews. FFS.

Btw, that Lego Batman movie looks way more interesting than this drek. At least Lego Batman isn't taking itself seriously.
Last edit: 01 Apr 2016 14:17 by Varys.
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01 Apr 2016 14:58 #225116 by Sagrilarus
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic Batman, mass murderer.
There was an article in the Washington Post claiming that Batman Vs Superman doesn't make book until it reaches $1 Billion in revenue, due to production cost (a quarter of a billion dollars for Chrissake), promotion cost, and the cut going to theater owners. That would be heartening if any of us thought for a minute that the powers-that-be in Hollywood would take the correct message from the numbers.

Can't imagine how you can spend a quarter of a billion dollars and only end up with only a string of bits to show for it.

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01 Apr 2016 14:58 #225117 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Batman, mass murderer.
Yeah, that's a poor role reversal. Batman and Superman are grimdark while Suicide Squad is fun...?

Either way, it's all reactionary film making. Further highlighting DC doesn't really know what it's doing or have a solid game-plan. Say what you will about Marvel's editorial control, but whoever that Kevin Fiege guy is at least has a vision for the MCU that is coherent with the comic book versions.

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01 Apr 2016 15:05 #225118 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Batman, mass murderer.
Despite the major mistakes made with Batman v Superman, I am still looking forward to Suicide Squad. I'm hopeful that they are taking inspiration from John Ostrander's excellent run from the late '80s. The JLU "Task Force X" episode was definitely inspired by the Ostrander run, and it was one of the best episodes of a fine cartoon.

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01 Apr 2016 15:09 #225119 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Batman, mass murderer.

Michael Barnes wrote: Unfortunately, the ship has sailed. $500 million opening. Which sends a message to the WB/DC execs that audiences want this kind of hateful, negative trash that jettisons any notions of humanity, hope and heroism.


The only lessons to be taken from a big opening weekend for a movie is that the audience is interested in the subject and/or the marketing was successful. Studios know that a big second weekend drop in box office means that audiences disliked the movie and told their friends.

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01 Apr 2016 15:12 #225120 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Batman, mass murderer.

Mr. White wrote: Yeah, that's a poor role reversal. Batman and Superman are grimdark while Suicide Squad is fun...?


If you get the chance, watch the Task Force X episode of the Justice League Unlimited cartoon. It's the Suicide Squad, minus the name, and it plays out like a supervillain version of a classic heist movie. Enough action and humor that you find yourself rooting for the badguys.

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01 Apr 2016 15:52 - 01 Apr 2016 15:53 #225122 by SebastianBludd
DC's attempt to differentiate their films from Marvel's only works if their alternative isn't wrong-headed and stupid. Hopefully there's a big dropoff from the first and second week of ticket sales but the Star Wars prequels did pretty well despite the poor reviews. They won't be happy about the scathing reviews and (hopefully) the middling box office but they'll make it up on the back end with all the licensed merchandise.

I'm looking forward to Suicide Squad but expecting the worst. After BvS it's going to have to be pretty decent for me to consider seeing it unless Leto's Joker performance is in the so-bad-it's-good category.
Last edit: 01 Apr 2016 15:53 by SebastianBludd.

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01 Apr 2016 16:07 #225124 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Batman, mass murderer.
Good point. The visual design of Leto's Joker doesn't inspire confidence. Reminds me less of the comic book Joker and more of Macauley Culkin and that Leave Britney Alone Guy. Emo-Jugalo.

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