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Rogue One (with SPOILERS)

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16 Dec 2016 11:00 - 16 Dec 2016 14:23 #240785 by Grudunza
So, the morning after... I'm feeling good about the film. Though I may have described it a bit negatively in my comments on the other thread, and regardless of comparing it to Force Awakens (which I still think is better, overall), it was a cool story to have in the Star Wars canon and was, as Mr. White would say, a competently made Star Wars movie, which I'm happy to have. And there were some more good things (and a few bad) that I remember better now than I did right afterwards. So anyway, let's get into it.

First of all, the big thing that I alluded to before; the Tarkin/Leia CGI choice. When they come up behind Tarkin and you hear him and see his reflection, that was awesome. I was thinking what a great way to include his character in there a little bit, and whether they had a stand-in or used CGI or whatever didn't matter. But then he turns around and starts talking... and he's a fucking Polar Express character. Okay, I'm exaggerating. It *almost* looked real. But it didn't look real, and that was such a kick in the nuts. And then they bring him back a few other times. Oy. And then Leia at the end! Awful. And totally unnecessary. We could have seen the back of her, she takes the plans, boom, we're out. But really, why not just recast Tarkin? Peter Cushing was wonderful, but I don't think his particular image needs to be tied to that character. Imagine the guy who plays Tywin Lannister in that role... pretty darn close in looks, and the performance would have been solid.

Vader's scenes were great, especially at the end with him cutting through everyone. Within the canon that almost felt like a bit much, as he doesn't really do anything quite that viscerally nasty in 4-6, though I think we always assumed he could. Regardless, it was fun to see. But for me, the first scene with Vader was better not for Vader but for the performance and reaction of Krennic. He was in our place, there, and it felt as intimidating as it should. The first shadowed glimpse of Vader in costume was very cool.

The trailers displayed some wonderful cinematography, and there definitely was a fair amount in the film, but also not used as effectively as I'd hoped. Compared to shots in TFA like the crashed star destroyer on Jakku, nothing visually had that kind of scope or impact. Still, some of the action shots were very effective, like the AT-ATs on the island and the star destroyers crashing into each other.

Donnie Yen's martial arts were fun to see in a Star Wars film, but I'm not sure if it added anything more than "hey, let's do some martial arts in a Star Wars film." His character was good, and as I said before, the robot is great as some comic relief, but otherwise the characters are pretty bland, especially compared to Rey and Finn from TFA. Someone on Reddit replied to my comments about that and said that the Force Awakens characters had to be more memorable and interesting because they are leading a trilogy, whereas we knew everyone would be killed off in Rogue One. I say bullshit... I still need a memorable character in any film, even if I know they'll die. Much as I enjoyed looking at Felicity Jones any time she was on screen, I didn't get much of a character from Jyn Erso other than pissed off and determined. And they didn't even use a clip from the trailer that I liked, where they are listing her crimes and she responds with, "This is a rebellion, isn't it? I rebel." Good line for her character. Not in the final film, though.

The pacing of this felt off or weak. The first act took quite a while to get going, the second act was okay but kind of labored a bit at that scene at the outpost facility, and the third act was generally really great. And it's good to have the third act be the best, except that by the time it even got to the second and third acts, it felt a little bit dull going in. That concluding sequence on the island base was really great, though.

More later.
Last edit: 16 Dec 2016 14:23 by Grudunza.
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16 Dec 2016 12:49 - 16 Dec 2016 12:52 #240797 by jpat
Replied by jpat on topic Rogue One (with SPOILERS)
I had fairly similar thoughts about structure and pacing. It wasn't really until the third act that I was gripped, but the grip then was so strong for me that it made the rest of the film look and seem stronger in retrospect. I'd have to see it again to get a better sense, but there's just a lot of plot machinations that aren't particularly engaging in and of themselves.

I'm not sure how I feel about the characterization. In one sense, this movie had a lot harder job than TFA because it's introducing an almost entirely new cast; and TFA had the benefit not only of familiarity but also having more archetypal characters. On the other hand, the getting-the-team-together trope is a pretty well-worn one, and Rogue One could probably have nailed it a little better. I didn't expect depth, but even by those standards things were a bit sketched in. Rey certainly felt to me more three-dimensional and memorable.

My wife had the exact same reaction on the CG characters. They should've recast Tarkin and given us just a from-the-back shot of Leia. I wouldn't object to a "special edition" that did the latter. (Of course, I'm still waiting for a TFA special edition where Leia at least acknowledges Chewie after Han's death.)

Visually, Rogue One seems head-and-shoulders above TFA to me. There are some memorable bits in TFA for sure, and it's by no means ugly, but TFA for the most part seems to stick to fairly conventional visuals shot in predictably Star Wars ways. Rogue One felt like a much more contemporary film to me in its sensibilities.

I wasn't as ecstatic after Rogue One as I was after TFA, but credit is due for trying something new-ish, which, for all its merits, TFA barely does. Rogue One is no soft reboot, and it also shows how prequels can work.
Last edit: 16 Dec 2016 12:52 by jpat.
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16 Dec 2016 13:19 - 16 Dec 2016 13:26 #240801 by jpat
Replied by jpat on topic Rogue One (with SPOILERS)
A few extra thoughts about Rouge One's prequel-ism:

I think it's hard to overstate how much better a prequel this movie is than Episodes I-III. I think the fact that Rogue One is a single film is a big, structural part of that, since both films/series are, in a sense, only filling in gaps. But it's more than that. Episodes I-III were basically just a (much weaker) recapitulation of the same story as that of Episodes IV-VI, whereas Rogue One showed something different with different kinds of people filling different kinds of roles in different situations. Rogue One's nods to continuity were also much cleverer. The inclusion of Smits's Bain Organa stands out to me in this respect. It was, I thought, a nice acknowledgment of the "original" prequels without being heavy-handed. In Episodes I-III, by contrast, we're constantly being reminded of who or what so-and-so/such-and-such is in relation to much superior movies--a conscious but nevertheless deadening product of Lucas's often-mocked belief in the desirability of the two series "rhyming" like poetry (which itself may just have been a justification for rushed, lazy writing and rustiness as a filmmaker).. Moreover, whereas Episodes I-III created a lot of continuity issues with IV-VI, I felt like Rogue One meshed a lot better. Without really needing to, it neatly explains, in a nondisruptive way, why the "Rebel fleet" in Episode IV seems to consist entirely of a few squads of X-wings.

I really also liked in Rogue One how the Force could be a part of the movie without the Jedi. Having a "Force-sensitive" character or characters (to borrow an RPG concept) meant that we could preserve a central idea in a way that respected the narrative situation and without hammering on the idea. Largely of necessity, and because it's a different kind of film at a different narrative spot, even Abrams's TFA is rather obsessed with the lightsaber (though surely not as much as Lucas was in the prequel trilogy). The one time you see one here reminds you of how cool they can be, and how intimidating, when they're not omnipresent and used like magic wands.
Last edit: 16 Dec 2016 13:26 by jpat.
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16 Dec 2016 15:22 #240808 by ChristopherMD
I can see how the internet will probably shit all over this movie. The pacing felt more like New Hope in that it was a bit of a throwback to 70's filmmaking where Edwards took his time telling the story he wanted to tell. Compared to something more modern where the plot seems mainly there to lead things to the next action sequence like the cutscenes in a videogame.

I thought the CG characters were well done and if I didn't know better I probably wouldn't have noticed. But since I know that's not really 1977 Peter Cushing my mind wants to look for the flaws. Not perfect but definitely well done and after next week I'll only rewatch this movie on my TV where the flaws won't be as noticeable as in a giant theater screen. Then again I am an optimist. Also I wouldn't kick CG Leia out of bed.

Vader felt tacked on but I loved seeing him so that's okay. I thought all of the new characters were good and overall the movie did feel like it expanded the galaxy beyond the Skywalker family.

I'm going to see it again with a friend next week and looking forward to it.

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16 Dec 2016 22:39 #240833 by KingPut
Replied by KingPut on topic Rogue One (with SPOILERS)
Liked the plot, the 2nd half of the movie, the action scenes and the side characters. I didn't like the 2 leads Jyn and Cassian. They were poorly cast and they're lines must have been written by George Lucas after getting a rectal exam. I felt bad when the droid died and when the blind guy died but it was no big deal when Jyn and Cassian bit the dust. Best of the prequels. I liked the Force Awakens much better.

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18 Dec 2016 17:02 #240878 by Ancient_of_MuMu
During the first half of the film I was just not sure about it, and was thinking that I needed to watch it a second time to appreciate it and decide whether I liked it or not. But then the final third happened and that is possibly the best thing ever in the star wars movie, up there with the Hoth battle.

The weird thing that keeps jumping out at me is that when people list the easter eggs in the movie, no one has mentioned my favourite one that made me gasp when I saw it: the wooden version of Dejarik (the holographic chess on the Millennium Falcon) that some guys are playing in the background.
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18 Dec 2016 20:29 #240884 by hotseatgames
I watched this today. I thought it started out very slowly. Actually the first 2/3 was pretty dull. But I did enjoy the last act. Particularly any time Darth Vader was onscreen.

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18 Dec 2016 20:44 #240885 by Sevej
Replied by Sevej on topic Rogue One (with SPOILERS)
On Jyn Erso, I'm not sure what she wants to be. Maybe it's because it's only one movie, or maybe that she has to share with 4 other characters. Her motivation (dad?) was not clear enough, and she's not that likeable, that I wish more screen time for the robot, blind kungfu dude and the mandalorian. Then maybe the movie's more hopeful and filled with more laughter. The captain is even worse, not sure how I feel about him.

Even as a war movie, I failed to see any semblance of combat tactics. I mean... shooting at an AT AT when you're in a totally open beach? It's cool as hell, but the later part of the movie (the BEST part) falls apart to me when:
1. Rebels are killed, but there always seems to be more of them (I REALLY hated this kind of stuff back then in Age of Ultron).
2. The Master Switch. FREAKING master switch. And the one who knows about this is a cargo hauler.

I totally cheered when the rebel armada warped in though. Rogue One is Star Wars Porn (with very long and boring foreplay). If you ever thought you want more battles and dogfight in a Star Wars movie, this is it. I also like how the rebellion is depicted in Jedha (I almost cried mujahedin! if I hadn't remember 90% of the people in the theatre are probably moslems).

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18 Dec 2016 21:42 #240886 by Michael Barnes
Ok, a lot to unpack here...overall I loved it. It was really kind of exactly the preque everybody expected in 1999- a more modern, grittier Star Wars picture that sort of jogged the wheel away from pulp and more toward adult action. In some ways I think this team lost sight of the magic of SW (which Abrams and his people completely wallowed in), but the SW setting and lore did pretty successfully support a more serious war movie context.

Even though I am firmly in the "SW is for kids" camp, I did like how the movie played out quite a bit like some of the more serious episodes of Clone Wars, where motives and morals are in question. The Rebellion is an insurgency, and they are shown using some very real-world insurgent tactics...and justifying them afterwords. That was really pretty daring stuff for a high profile, mainstream SW movie, that kind of material has traditionally been off in the EU or more fan-facing content.

The biggest problem I thought, as mentioned here, was that the pacing and characterization wasn't the best. It was slow to get rolling and the connectivity between characters was sort of sloppy. The writing and directing wasn't on par with something like The Dirty Dozen where you get a solid sense of character and motivation from little screen time. Jyn was cool, but cutting her million dollar line from the trailer was just a tragic mistake. I liked all of the characters (especially Chirrut) and all were really quite different than the usual SW characters at least as far as the films go. But no one "popped", really, and only Chirrut really had a moment- shooting down a TIE fighter with a fucking bow ranks as one of the coolest things in SW ever.

But from Scarif on, it was exhilarating and I am able to forgive all the bits where it get saggy or the structure wasn't really doing the script any favors.

Fan notes:

- HOLY SHIT, Vader. That scene at the end was terrifying! I actually really liked how brutal and horrorfying it was- it was a reminder that this isn't Hayden Christensen or some dying old man who is suddenly sorry for being such a heel. It is motherfucking LORD VADER. I couldn't breathe during that scene. Also loved how it went right to the Tantive IV.

- Vader's Castle- HELL YES, at last.

- CGI characters- my wife didn't realize they weren't real. I thought they were quite convincing but the Peter Cushing was just a little too animated- he was such a great, subtle actor and they didn't quite capture that.
Doesn't help that he was on the screen long enough for me to notice.

- Great to see the Ghost on the tarmac in Yavin IV as well as other references to Rebels.

- Red 5- ha ha!

- Hammerhead Corvette- I'll take two please when they hit Armada. What an awesome scene.

- What a fumble that Chirrut didn't disappear when he died...what a powerful scene that would have been if had been "rewarded" by the Force for keeping the faith, so to speak.

- Jyn reading off the names of other Imperial projects...exactly that, an ellipsis...

- U wings are great- a kind of ship we've not really seen yet. More like a Huey or something, really

- The Khyber crystal thing was interesting...does it mean that the Death Star beam is a big ol' light saber?

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18 Dec 2016 22:15 #240888 by Forelle
Replied by Forelle on topic Rogue One (with SPOILERS)
In the early scene where the imperials land the ship near the Erso farm, I kept imagining one of the storm troopers thinking to himself, "Who's bright idea was it to land the ship all the fucking way out here? There's plenty of room much closer to the buildings."

The problem with Tarkin is that there was too much of him and too close up. If they'd just stuck with the opening scene where his face is reflected, that would have been enough - you've created another tie from this movie to Star Wars. And, you could have some other manner of providing the exposition re his relationship with Krennic if it was that important. As it was, the more you saw his face, the more "off" it seemed. It's not terrible, but it did take me out of the movie. I joked afterward that the actor who played Tarkin appeared in another Disney movie this year. He played the BFG.

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18 Dec 2016 22:31 #240889 by Michael Barnes
Ha, I thought about the parking too/ they could have just landed at the front door, FFS,

"Negative TK-464- I need more time for my cape to billow as we approach."

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18 Dec 2016 23:24 #240891 by Msample
Replied by Msample on topic Rogue One (with SPOILERS)

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: During the first half of the film I was just not sure about it, and was thinking that I needed to watch it a second time to appreciate it and decide whether I liked it or not. But then the final third happened and that is possibly the best thing ever in the star wars movie, up there with the Hoth battle.

The weird thing that keeps jumping out at me is that when people list the easter eggs in the movie, no one has mentioned my favourite one that made me gasp when I saw it: the wooden version of Dejarik (the holographic chess on the Millennium Falcon) that some guys are playing in the background.


I liked the cameo from the disfigured thug who bullied Luke in the Mos Eisely cantina.
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18 Dec 2016 23:35 #240892 by Michael Barnes
Yeah, Dr. Evanzan and Ponda Baba- that was a good one.

The C3PO/R2D2 cameo wasn't quite as successful because of that really powerful moment that they had in TFA.

Interesting note- this is the first SW film to have things from ALL canonical SW films and shows. I kept thinking "if Asohka shows up, I'm going to stand up and scream"

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19 Dec 2016 00:28 #240893 by Ancient_of_MuMu
The thing that amazed me about the many references is that 95% were just subtle and not forced, like the Death Star's appearance in Attack of the Clones which was terrible. I think only the droids, Leia and the bullies were the ones that screamed "look at me, I'm a reference". Things like the guys in the death star weapon shaft, the exact same blueprints from ep 4, etc were just seamless and so perfect. I actually shed a tear when red leader and gold leader appeared.

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19 Dec 2016 00:46 #240894 by dysjunct
Replied by dysjunct on topic Rogue One (with SPOILERS)
I was really hoping for an appearance by Porkins. :(

Also, NO Bothan spies died! Total letdown. I was expecting complete Bothan carnage.

Over it was okay. Agree with the criticisms of the shaky plot and the flat characterizations. Things felt rushed, going from one set piece to another without giving the story or the characters time to breathe.

The CGI of Tarkin and Leia didn't bother me.

The last third was really good. At first I was a bit shocked when everyone started dying, but of course that's the only way you can do it. You can't introduce all these heroes and then have them conspicuously absent then rest of the movies.

Anyway, solid 7.

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