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? About Negative Review Ethics

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16 Jul 2012 20:29 - 16 Jul 2012 20:37 #130746 by SuperflyPete
I was pointed toward a podcast where the podcaster said, in short, that if he doesn't like a game that he was asked to review by a publisher, he contacts publishers and asks if they want to have a negative review published.

Is it just me, or is that the dog asking the fox if he should bark or not when the fox is about to raid the henhouse? I mean, isn't it the whole point of reviewing to...I dunno...review a game for what it is? Alert people to the pros and cons?

I'm not being hyperbolic (for once), I'm serious.

dicehateme.com/2012/07/the-state-of-game...culling-and-critics/

28:10 or so.
Last edit: 16 Jul 2012 20:37 by SuperflyPete.
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16 Jul 2012 20:36 #130747 by daveroswell
I'm not a reviewer, and I may be naive.

In a perfect world, I would think there would be a general understanding between publishers and reviewers any review would be based on honest opinions, good or bad. To ask a publisher permission is crap.

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16 Jul 2012 20:38 - 16 Jul 2012 20:55 #130748 by SuperflyPete
Everyone who has ever said anything about a game to someone else is a reviewer. Some of us are just more vocal. :)

I'm no more a reviewer than anyone here at F:AT, and my opinion is arguably FAR less valid. I mean, Chapel's eat, shit, and drank games for 30 years. I've only been back in the hobby for seven, if that, and of those, 3 years were dedicated almost solely to 2 games.
Last edit: 16 Jul 2012 20:55 by SuperflyPete.

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16 Jul 2012 21:01 #130751 by Egg Shen
The only reason for this is to keep the influx of free shit coming. Oh course a publisher is going to say that they don't want a negative review.

I have no problem with them contacting the publisher to tell them that they are putting out a negative review. That way they aren't blindsided and can, you know...actually read the review for some constructive criticism.

That would be like in college if I went to my 79 year old neighbor and asked for her permission to throw a giant raging keg party that would certainly be loud, and probably go throughout the night. Instead, I would knock on her door, inform her of the party and give her our phone number so that she called us instead of the cops. I'm sure the noise still pissed her off, but she always appreciated our honesty. Plus, she never did call the cops despite having some truly obnoxious parties!

There is nothing wrong with being honest. Nobody wants their creative baby shit on, but sometimes you can make things better when people tell you what's wrong.

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16 Jul 2012 21:07 - 16 Jul 2012 21:09 #130752 by VonTush
Well, if that is the case, then they are a reviewer in name alone. Their hobby is getting free games and talking about games rather than providing a service to the community.
Last edit: 16 Jul 2012 21:09 by VonTush.

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16 Jul 2012 21:53 #130756 by Michael Barnes
Yeah, once a publisher sends you a review copy your responsibility is to the reader, not to the company. I'm pretty up front when I'm asking for review copies, I say plainly that I am not guaranteeing a review of any particular disposition. You shouldn't have to say that, but even some the larger companies like FFG do not understand journalistic integrity and impropriety.

There have been a couple of cases where I've done a negative or less-than-positive review and I've had the publisher or designer nip at me for it. That's pretty damn unprofessional, and generally a clear sign that I'll not be covering their games again...or at least not accepting review copies from them, that's not a kind of relationship that any reviewer should be in.

It's ridiculous...asking the publisher if they want a bad review...how does that serve your audience?

Anyway, it's very easy to avoid this situation. Do your homework and review only games that look interesting to you, games that have a chance at getting a positive notice. If I'm not reviewing a game, odds are I'm not interested in it anyway and won't have to ask permission to post a bad review. Geez.
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16 Jul 2012 22:02 #130757 by Ken B.
Yah, I've been contacted by PMs from designers or publishers who are snippy about negative reviews--or worse, negative bits in otherwise positive reviews.

It's almost always from a smaller company; those with the most to lose, but also those who have not yet figured out how to establish those sort of professional relationships.

The larger companies (FFG notwithstanding) understand that a negative review is inevitable; that their business will carry on regardless; and that when a positive review for their product *does* emerge, it will carry more weight.

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16 Jul 2012 22:39 #130759 by SuperflyPete
I only get publicly ridiculed. The only guys that ever contacted me privately was the Joe Magic guys, and that was because they really wanted constructive criticism. And I willingly gave it and tried to help, because I really like Mark Hanny. Guys got spunk, and I see him like the Idaho version of John Clowdus...lots of ideas, not all good, but most good, and he's not afraid to get stomped on a little.

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17 Jul 2012 04:53 - 17 Jul 2012 04:55 #130772 by mjl1783
Right after Gene Siskel died, Roger Ebert appeared on Larry King and had the following exchange:

King: Should a film critic, uh, some critics... it would appear from reading them that they don't like the medium that they are criticizing. Should, a film critic love... want every movie to be great?

Ebert: That's what Gene said over and over! He said "I'm not crazy; I wouldn't go to the movies expecting to have a bad time. Every time I sit down in a theater," Gene liked to say, "I hope to have a great time at the movies." And I feel the same way. I love movies, especially good ones. And I remember him creeping over to me in the dark about the three quarter mark of a movie called Fargo, and saying "This is why I go to the movies."


Apparently, I'm a curmudgeon who doesn't like anything, but I really don't enjoy shitting all over somebody's hard work just for the sake of it. I absolutely want to walk away from the table after every new game saying "I can't believe how much fun that was." As far as I'm concerned, and your mileage may vary a bit, but none of us would be in this bullshit, doing all this bullshit, or talking about all this bullshit unless there were a few games in your "career" that caught you right off guard with just how goddamned much fun they are to play.

This goes even for games that I expect to be fun. I had every good reason to believe Earth Reborn would be a good game. I did not, however, expect to finish up my first game with my dad and I looking at each other agape, him saying "We've got to play this again as soon as possible," and me just nodding furiously going "Yeah... Yeah we do."

Point? If you're in this business trying to sell me something, that's what you're claiming your game does. You know goddamned well I probably have a closet full of bitchin' games already, and if you really legitimately believe yours is worth me owning or playing, you're putting your shit up against some of the all-time greats.

Cool, bro. I really hope your game is that good. If it isn't, I'm going to be fucking disappointed, and I'm not going to be the least bit shy about telling anyone about it. If that hurts your business, though shit. I don't want you out of the business; I just want you to fuck off for a bit, and come back with a better game.

And that is because, if your game really is_that_good, then I am going to tell every-fucking-body that, and I will do my utmost to always describe it in terms that will make people say "You know what? We really should play that motherfucker."

I mean, I'm not a critic, but if I was, that is the only thing I would think I could offer a publisher. If your game sucks, people are going to fucking hear about it, and don't bring me your boo-hoo. If it's great, I'm going to do my goddamn damndest to get people playing it, because I want everyone else to have as good a fucking time doing this as I do.

If you ain't in the designing/publishing business to make great games, and if you ain't in the criticism business to point us to what is great and steer us away from what sucks, then do us all a favor and get lost. We've got enough cynical assholes looking to make a quick buck around here, and even more trying to grow their internet phallus off of their no-work-to-attain-it position of "authority". Thank you very much.

You know, there'd be a lot more good criticism, and fewer shitty games if everyone gave a bit more of a fuck. Christ.

[/Rant]
Last edit: 17 Jul 2012 04:55 by mjl1783.
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17 Jul 2012 05:33 #130774 by Michael Barnes
You know, that reminds me of a discussion I had with this guy once about some of the then-current punk bands in the mid to late 1990s. He liked all that stuff- Lagwagon, Millencolin, AFI, and so forth. He asked me why I was hating on all of that stuff and why I was so sharply critical of it and the scene around it. My response? "Because I love punk".

Some people don't get that when you are negative about a particular game, record, book, movie or whatever it has more to do with your love of the medium than it does your hate of the work. It's more about disappointment than a condemnation of someone else's effort.

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17 Jul 2012 07:44 #130776 by mads b.

Michael Barnes wrote: Anyway, it's very easy to avoid this situation. Do your homework and review only games that look interesting to you, games that have a chance at getting a positive notice. If I'm not reviewing a game, odds are I'm not interested in it anyway and won't have to ask permission to post a bad review. Geez.


This. This is, I think, one of the reasons why we see so many positive reviews. Because of expectations and research. And that is quite okay. Some of the worst stuff you can read in the paper (but quite common in Denmark) is a review of stand-up comedy starting with the words: I generally don't like stand-up. Personally I prefer reading reviews from people who love what they review, but know enough to criticise rather than just review.
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17 Jul 2012 08:27 - 17 Jul 2012 08:32 #130777 by bomber
I think we're getting a bit carried away, as usual, with "our" role in things, and who our "audience" is. Give me a break, I think they explained it pretty well, and it's quite common with gaming couples, they just enjoy most games because they have their own great social dynamic. If anything it's only the readers (our) fault for not distinguishing between people who are "reviewing" in a way that as they point out is just going to pick out the fun things they liked, and not taking it any more seriously than that and reviewing in a way thats a bit more cutting, and then on to another level of critique where you're analysing things deeply

I think by far the worst thing that's happened with this "new wave" of "oo look at our moral and ethical responsibility to output academic level critique" we're all forgetting that some people just don't take it that seriously, some people aren't interested in spending time digging into flaws of a game, and many people just play games effectively to pass the time with a bit of amusement while hanging out together, and thus, tend to enjoy some aspects of pretty much any game, because they're not social retards frothing at the mouth because the game is missing some (insert some random bollocks here that sounds clever).

Reviewers have NO fucking responsibility to anyone, we are not fucking victims, they dont serve anyone, theyre not important, theyre just some random on the internet. We can decide on the relevance and credibility of a reviewer, and how that relates to your own experience. I think all this gnashing of teeth is just as much a problem as the perceived issue that some random bloke and his missus only wants to review things they like, and dont really want to slag off a free game they get. Big deal, get over it. The whole industry is built around pushing the next sale, it is what it is. None of us are celebrities or making a difference. 99.999999% of the population don't know or care that we fiddle with bits of plastic and cardboard and if they did they'd laugh. Get over it


And as for silence, well, it IS a relevant piece of information isnt it? If 100 "crap" reviewers get the same 10 games and they hate 3 of them and thus AVOID writing about them, thats 100 reviews of 7 games and 0 reviews of 3 games. Thats information for anyone bothering to fucking look hard enough. If a game is good enough, a lot of people will let you know. If its REALLY good, a lot of people who you know have valid opinions (relative to you) will also go on about it. If you hear nothing about a game or just a handful of "this is good" reviews, well Einstein, guess what, of course you're reading the reviews of the 3 people who got a free fucking copy.

This is not rocket science, and we dont need no woe is me bullshit to protect our precious industry from the evils of people who just want to get some free games and say "I quite liked the shouting". Good for them, bully for you.
Last edit: 17 Jul 2012 08:32 by bomber.

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17 Jul 2012 08:31 - 17 Jul 2012 08:33 #130778 by JMcL63
When I write reviews on RD/KA! (89 items under that label- not all games, and I use the term relatively loosely; ie. 'reviews' can include surveys of something in the context of a wider article), I'm always reviewing something I've bought myself. So I'm definitely motivated to be positive, because I want to like something I've shelled out on. I have written one purposefully negative review- My first (and last?) game of España 1936 . It's pretty mild by F:AT standards. I bought into WFRP3 in a big way though, and I'm sorely tempted to do a proper hatchet job on it.
Last edit: 17 Jul 2012 08:33 by JMcL63.
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17 Jul 2012 11:40 #130780 by Erik Twice
Hahaha, what a hack! Daring to push his thoughts with the plume, yet he doesn't dare to defend his own thoughts!

It's not even about your audience! What does it say about you when you have to ask if you should pee over your own work? Why even bother? A free game? My dignity is worth much more than that, thank you!

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17 Jul 2012 13:24 - 17 Jul 2012 13:25 #130786 by san il defanso

mads b. wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: Anyway, it's very easy to avoid this situation. Do your homework and review only games that look interesting to you, games that have a chance at getting a positive notice. If I'm not reviewing a game, odds are I'm not interested in it anyway and won't have to ask permission to post a bad review. Geez.


This. This is, I think, one of the reasons why we see so many positive reviews. Because of expectations and research. And that is quite okay. Some of the worst stuff you can read in the paper (but quite common in Denmark) is a review of stand-up comedy starting with the words: I generally don't like stand-up. Personally I prefer reading reviews from people who love what they review, but know enough to criticise rather than just review.


I've read from several people that a negative is more useful than a positive one, and as someone who usually writes positive reviews for all of the reasons that have been named, that's annoying. I don't think we need more negative reviews, we need more well-written ones. A negative review from a guy who played half a game and rails on a game is no better than some puff piece from a review-copy tramp.

Ldsdbomber, I can only speak for myself, but I don't think most of us here are wringing our hands over any particular thing. It's just that when you write about the hobby, these kinds of thoughts bubble to the surface. I write 2-3 entries a week on my blog, and you cannot write that much without at least a little reflection. It's definitely true that you can go bananas trying to determine what your readers want, and in the end it's just best to write the kind of stuff you would want to read.

And as for people who don't care about the more analytical or reflective articles that discuss things like review ethics and all that, that's totally fine. But just because someone doesn't care about it, does that mean it shouldn't be written at all? There's plenty of discussion of the "fun" side of games, both here and at BGG.

Back to the original topic, I'm normally the kind of guy who hates to hurt feelings and so forth, so if I were to really torch a game and then get a PM from the publisher, my initial response would be to feel guilty. But that's obviously no way to compose yourself and write reviews. I've never had to deal with a publisher come crying to me, but it shouldn't have to be said that a review might be negative. Write what you want. The publisher will just have to put on their big-boy pants and deal with it.
Last edit: 17 Jul 2012 13:25 by san il defanso.
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