Articles Analysis Depth versus Variety: a Fundamental Change in Game Playing in the Past 30-40 Years
 

Depth versus Variety: a Fundamental Change in Game Playing in the Past 30-40 Years Hot

Depth versus Variety: a Fundamental Change in Game Playing in the Past 30-40 Years

30-40 years ago many hobby game players looked for gameplay depth (and occasionally narrative depth) in their games. Now most game players don’t look for gameplay depth but look instead for variety, which is quite a different thing. Many more people now also look for narrative in their games, but I’m not sure whether they’re looking for narrative depth or narrative variety. Game playing has become much more passive where long-term decision-making is concerned, and that's incompatible with gameplay depth. Yes, there's lots of activity in many kinds of video games, and short-term decision making, but the decisions and choices often don't really matter in the long run.

Recently I was discussing via blog posts what depth is in games , and then ran across a discussion of how role-playing games have changed since D&D was first published. I’ve realized that there is a connection between the two, that what gamers are looking for in games has changed in a fundamental way in the past 30-40 years.

That fundamental change is that 30-40 years ago many hobby game players looked for gameplay depth (and occasionally narrative depth) in their games.  Now most game players don’t look for gameplay depth but look instead for variety, which is quite a different thing.  Many more people now also look for narrative in their games, but I’m not sure whether they’re looking for narrative depth or narrative variety.  Game playing has become much more passive where long-term decision-making is concerned, and that's incompatible with gameplay depth.  Yes, there's lots of activity in many kinds of video games, and short-term decision making, but the decisions and choices often don't really matter in the long run.

Variety tends to lead to replayability, but game depth also leads to replayability.  So they are two paths to the same objective, getting people to play the game over and over again.

Is variety "bad?"  Certainly not.  Is gameplay depth "good?"  Not in and of itself, though it's what I have tended to look for in over 50 years of game playing.  Regardless of my preference, this discussion is a recognition of reality, what IS, not a criticism of the change.

(At this point I hope it's obvious that I'm talking about trends and tendencies, about majorities, not about every hobby game player.  Of course there are many, many exceptions in a group as large as ours.)

I’m talking here about hobby gamers, about people who play games frequently as a hobby.  Family gamers are a very different group, and have never been people who looked for depth in a game.  Nor did they look for variety, 30-40 years ago, their purpose in playing games was and is to socialize with their families and friends.

What do I mean by depth and variety?  I’m working on a very long piece discussing gameplay depth and other kinds of depth in games.  For our purposes here I'll say that deep gameplay requires players to make many significant decisions, decisions that make a difference in the outcome of the game, and those decisions have multiple viable choices so the player can pick a better choice rather than a worse one, but more than one choice has a good chance to be successful.  (A "viable" choice is one that, at least a reasonable part of the time, can lead to success, as opposed to "plausible" but not viable choices that look like they might work out well but rarely if ever will.)  There is often an element of emergence in such games, choices (and sometimes decisions) that players don’t even recognize when they first play the game.  This is often associated with decision trees, decisions that lead to others that lead to others and so on in a sort of tree shape, that give a good chance of success in the game.  Yet perhaps paradoxically, if a game has *too many* decisions and *too many viable choices*, then it loses depth as each individual decision and choice becomes insignificant to the outcome of the whole.

Variety, on the other hand, is doing lots more of the same kinds of actions and related activity without providing additional significant decisions and viable choices.  Variety occasionally replace one decision with a different one, or more often replaces a choice or choices with different ones, but the volume of significant decisions and viable choices, and the depth of the decision trees, remains the same.  Variety can be added by additional scenarios or levels, variable maps, different character classes, and random events (among others).

How things have changed
So much for brief definition.  How (and why) have things changed?  40 years ago we didn’t have video games, nor did we have CCGs, we had board and card games and we had RPGs just about to emerge.  The development of RPGs reflects the 30-40 year fundamental change.  Many of the players of original, first, and second edition D&D wanted gameplay depth.  In third edition D&D the emphasis changed to ways of optimizing characters using a stupendous variety of published classes and skills and feats, a striving to make the perfect one man army for tactical combat.  D&D became fantasy Squad Leader.  It was much harder to die and in fact the “fear of death” was slowly being removed from the game.

In computer RPGs this was happening much more strongly.  If you died then at worst you just loaded your saved game and continued.  In many computer MMO (massively multiplayer online) RPGs you don’t even need to save your game, you just respawn and continue.  After all, the makers of the MMOs do not have gameplay depth as an objective, their objective is to keep you playing the game as long as possible so that they can collect the monthly fees.  (Now monthly fees are much less common because we’ve gone to free to play games, but the objective is still to have people play as long as possible so that they will spend money on virtual goods and other advantages.)   In order to retain players, many online video games reward players constantly rather than make them responsible for earning their advancement and advantages.  If there’s no responsibility for earning advancement, decisions become much less significant, and choices matter much less.  Social networking games have taken this to the extreme.  Engagement has replaced gameplay.  (See http://whatgamesare.com/2011/04/how-engagement-killed-gameplay-language.html for more.)

Not only responsibility for your actions but the fear of death has been removed from electronic RPGs, and with it most of the gameplay depth has been removed.  If it doesn’t really matter whether you die, if you can try again when you fail, then your decisions no longer make a difference to what happens in the long run, so they are no longer significant in the gameplay depth sense.  World of Warcraft is a game with so little gameplay depth to it that professional “pharmers” can, in an economically feasible period of time, play characters up to high levels and sell them to other people who don’t want to *bother* to play the game to get to the maximum level.  “The grind” characterizes play, and for many people playing the game is “like work.” (See http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/ .) I’ve said that variety has been substituted for depth in games but in WoW there doesn’t seem to be much interest from the players in variety until after you’ve reached maximum level.  As characters work their way up there's little interest in the journey, only in the destination of maximum level.  For those at max level, variety is essential to maintain interest in the game.

Even at maximum level, big raids amount to characters doing the same thing, their “role” (DPS, healer, etc.), for extended periods of time.  By all accounts it’s regimented and  repetitively automatic, and does not involve making significant decisions with multiple viable choices.

In some video games we have the phenomenon of “mini-games”, completely different games that have been inserted into the main game for players to play when they get bored of the main game.  Again it’s variety that is the attraction, not depth.

The recent fourth edition (4e) of D&D reflects this change of emphasis.  Some responsibility is still there, but the fear of death has been almost entirely removed through lots of beginning hit points, healing surges, easy ways to come back into the action when you’ve been incapacitated, cheap healing potions, and so forth.  Characters no longer have much capability to gather strategic (or tactical) information through spells.  In the past D&D players had to speak in character to gather information, or figure out how to use spells to gather information: now they roll dice.  Some of this may derive from video games where the referee–the computer–is nowhere close to smart enough to deal with a wide variety of dialogue and a wide variety of player intentions, so everything is reduced to dialog trees and numbers and dice rolls.  4e is now, in its "natural" form, almost entirely tactical battles without much long-range planning and consequently with very little strategy. 

The blog commenters I mentioned above talked about players complaining about secret doors in 4e D&D.  This appeared to be regarded as a “nasty DM trick”.  As a counter-comment a 4e DM said he didn’t use secret doors because he knew where he wanted his players to go and what he wanted them to do and there was no point in hiding the path.  In other words, in a game where variety and linear narrative is the objective then secret doors only get in the way.  In a game where gameplay depth is the objective then secret doors can be a differentiator, and the choice to look for secret doors or not look for them can be significant.

RPGs are now arranged much more for players to experience variety, rewards, and winning rather than to experience gameplay depth and the possibility of losing.  They are becoming more entertainments (something like movies) than games, if by games we mean something where there’s a significant opposition that requires thoughtful reaction.

I also think it’s much more common in RPGs nowadays that the referee devises a story and makes the players conform to that story.  As Monte Cook observed several years ago at Origins, the published tabletop adventures tend to be much more story-based than in the past.  The old-style alternative was to set up a situation and let the players make a story rather than forcing them to follow a linear path.  In video RPGs, the Japanese/console style has been to force the players to follow along a particular linear story.  (The American/PC style is more like WoW.)  In fact some people have characterized the famous Final Fantasy series as stories punctuated with repetitive episodes of exploration and combat that make virtually no difference to what actually happens in the stories.

Favorite Games
30-40 years ago most game players had one or a few favorite games, ones that they wanted to play over and over again.  This is far less common now.  Ask younger gamers, especially video gamers, what their favorite game is and most will be unable to tell you or will simply name the game they’re currently playing.  Some are even surprised at the idea of having a favorite game.  They want to name a dozen or more as their favorites, if they can narrow it down that far.  The very idea of playing a game a hundred times or 500 times (I know people who have played my 4 to 5 hour tabletop game Britannia more than 500 times), or the video game equivalent, playing the same game for many hundreds of hours, is foreign to most contemporary gamers.  Many of the younger people who do have a favorite game that they play over and over have settled on Magic:the Gathering or Yu-Gi-Oh.  Yet the very nature of CCGs is to change the game over time (providing immense variety) in order to persuade players to buy new cards; sometimes the game rules are changed as well.

Many AAA video games involve a puzzle or a story, and once you solve the puzzle or experience the story there is no reason to continue.  Some of the games will give you several different characters to play so that variety is added to the game.  But there is little gameplay depth.  A game with deep gameplay can be played again and again while revealing new aspects and possibilities.  Puzzles tend to be solved, and once solved hold little interest.

This fundamental change may reflect all forms of leisure activity these days.  There are many more distractions and many more opportunities for entertainment than 30-40 years ago.  Now we have the World Wide Web, we have hundreds of TV networks, we have movies and TV programs on recordable media and available through instant download, we have smart phones and texting and free long distance and iPads and MP3 players and so forth, none of which was available 30 or 40 years ago.  People just don’t seem to stick to one thing the way they used to and that applies to games as well as everything else. 

Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning.  These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning.

We have become “entertainment bathers.”  Sound/music bathers like to have 1000 or 10,000 songs on their MP3 players but likely don’t listen to any one of the songs very much.  (Clearly of an older generation, I can listen to the same song over and over for an hour sometimes, if it’s a really good song; how many young people would even dream of doing that?)  Game bathers like to have lots and lots of games to play but don’t play any one of them very much.  Variety is the goal.  We've become a jaded society. 


This is not the only fundamental change over that period.  Even among many who want to fully use their brains when playing games, puzzle-solving (which rarely involves gameplay depth, it is a different kind of skill) has displaced gameplay depth.  And in the video game world, engagement has tended to replace gameplay as the objective of designers.  But those are topics for another time.

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Comments (88)
  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    It's a pretty blanket statement that "30-40 years ago many hobby game players looked for gameplay depth (and occasionally narrative depth) in their games. Now most game players don’t look for gameplay depth but look instead for variety, which is quite a different thing."

    I think that people still want depth, but their attention spans are so short these days that they want LOTS of games that have depth.

    Maybe you're right, though...people seem to be calling Eclipse a "TI3 Killer" because it streamlines down a 6 hour game to a 2 hour one.

    I don't agree with much of the rest of the article, especially since it's all anecdotal at best and makes wild assumptions, but the main thesis that people may not be looking for the Fortress: America 4-hour experience like they used to may have merit.

    I'm not sure that it's tastes that have changed, if they have, as much as the amount of spare time they have to devote to the hobby. Many people I know would still rather play one 5 hour game over three 1.5 hour games in their allotted gaming time, but there's always the "more is better" crowd.

    And I think it's always been that way, but now there's many more publishers, and there's much more variety available. It's the Pokemon philosohy: collect them all.

    And as a sidenote, you note: "Sound/music bathers like to have 1000 or 10,000 songs on their MP3 players but likely don’t listen to any one of the songs very much. (Clearly of an older generation, I can listen to the same song over and over for an hour sometimes, if it’s a really good song; how many young people would even dream of doing that?)"

    I don't think that there's EVER been a large group of people that would sit and listen to the same exact song over and over for an hour. That's outside the mainstream by a very large margin. Maybe listen to the same CD several times, but the same ONE SONG, for an hour?

    I'm 100% certain that I'm not the only one that you lost right there.

  • avatarShellhead

    There are several reasons why depth is better than variety, at least when it comes to boardgames. Variety means having to learn and remember a lot more sets of rules, and sometimes get them wrong. Variety means spending more money. Variety means needing more storage space. And at this stage in the hobby, variety doesn't really mean as much in terms of sheer variety, as there are so many games that do more or less the same things. Same themes. Same mechanics. Same kinds of interactions. When you think about, variety can be a bit boring.

  • avatarSpace Ghost

    On the surface, this is an odd article because you open in the intro to discuss boardgames, but then focus primarily on video games and RPGs.

    If you have any experience with MtG, you would know that there is quite a bit of depth there. Replayability is not dependent upon the release of new sets -- although that is how the continue to make money; however, to monetize it, Wizards structures their tournament rules around the release schedule.

    As for boardgames, there are plenty of games with depth that are still among the most beloved by many in the hobby. The example that springs to mind is Twilight Struggle. Or even something like Through the Ages or the recent Mage Knight.

    With statements like

    Quote:
    Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning. These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning.

    It just comes off as bitter and old --- very "Get off my lawnish".

  • avatarSan Il Defanso

    I think this is more a function of companies than "what players want." The companies want something with variety so they can keep crapping out expansions, players buy them because as you say, we confuse depth with variety. I realized I had been doing that very thing with Dominion, which is one of the things that persuaded me to stop buying expansions for it.

    But most gamers I know would rather have a complete experience in one box. We don't begrudge an expansion, but we'd rather it not be necessary for the experience to function. No one I know wants to spend MORE money.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    You know, I want to go back and clarify, or more to the point, have you clarify that 1-hour music thing.

    Were you talking about doing that REGULARLY, or simply once in a while getting a bug and listining to a song for an extended period...because if I'm trying to learn the song, I'll do that.

  • avatarKen B.

    Dude, I could listen to "November Rain" all day, man. I once supported legislation to change that to our national anthem.

  • avatarubarose  - re:
    Space Ghost wrote:
    Quote:
    Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning. These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning.


    It just comes off as bitter and old --- very "Get off my lawnish".

    If by committment to planning, he means committment by a group of people to show up on a regular basis over a period of several weeks or months to learn and play a specific game, then it come off as written by someone who doesn't live in the modern world of constantly conflicting higher priority committments like - work, spouse, young kids, elderly parents, house, school, community... Getting a consistant group together to invest in learning and playing a game with significant depth is difficult, not because people aren't interested, but because people's schedules are crazy making.

  • avatarldsdbomber

    is it people looking for depth before and variety now, or is it that there was no variety before, at least not as much, and there's a whole culture of easy access to lots and lots more entertainment options.

    I know usually these kinds of threads turn into "the old guys had the patience and commitment to learn shit" but it could just as equally be "those old guys had fuck all else to do". I don't believe there's a fundamental difference between people outside of the external factors of being bombarded culturally by more and more stuff to do and buy and see, so people find it less natural to retire to a corner and spend all night all week all month all year faffing about with their one big project

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    I think he meant in-game planning, Shellie. Like, it's hard to play a game that takes 10 hours when you're constantly playing Angry Birds on your IPhone between turns. It's hard to come up with a coherent long-range plan that will pay off in the 10th hour if you're not paying attention in the first 9.

  • jason10mm

    I'm not sure I would agree. Modern games can deliver plenty of depth. Many euro games for example, can be played hundreds of times without getting stake because they rely on mechanics rather than scripted events, dice rolls to add randomness, or card events which enough plays could render unsurprising. I don't equate game length with depth either. If a 30 minute game of seven wonders delivers the same feeling of civ building and conquest as a 6 hour game of through the ages or a 12 hour 80s era Avalon hill game, who are we to knock it? I like Fortress America but damned if it only has so much fun in it, I could play 10 games of King of Tokyo in the same timeframe. Same amount of trash talking but I beat my buddies 7 times instead of once. And I challenge anyone to but Dominant Species up against any 80s game and see if that older game has more depth, decision making, or emotional involvement.

    But you are right, if there are lots of folks playing games AT ALL, even casual dicefests, it is a good sign that the hobby is alive and well. Some of those folks will migrate to the heavier games and the barrier to entry will stay low. Better they play Dnd 4ed or MtG than be lost forever to reruns of Friends and Twilight movies.

  • avatarDair

    I think there is truth to Lew's ideas. I'm not that old, but most people I play with don't play individual games often enough to see value in depth. They may play something 5 or 6 times and see that as good value and then move on to the new hotness. I'm sure I've been guilty of this too, but I definitely prefer long games that have more meaningful decisions. This puts me in the minority of gamers I fear.

    As Jason says above, he would rather play King of Tokyo multiple times than one long game. He is the majority and there is nothing wrong with that. I would much prefer to break out Fortress America or Dune than KoT.

  • avatardragonstout

    I agree with the general thesis, that gamers have pretty low standards of depth these days: "deep" in a review typically meaning "after 4 or 5 plays, I'm still learning new things!" And I'll admit that I really value when there's a lot of variety within a single game, like Cosmic Encounter or Magic.

    But I think you all can guess that I'm going to defend Magic: the Gathering (along with Space Ghost). Yes, variety is a HUGE appeal of Magic. Maybe even the primary appeal. But first of all, it's inherently a strategic game (as in, strategy vs. tactics), as deckbuilding itself is all about coming up with a long-term plan. You play some games, tweak the plan, play some more, constantly tweaking the plan. It's so long-term that your results won't even see full fruition after a single game!

    As for depth: it is also not reliant on the huge, ever-changing cardpool to produce depth. Single draft environments have a huge amount of depth (the good ones, at least), and don't usually get "solved" even after literally thousands of games played every day and dozens of strategy articles posted about the draft environment every week. So even with just a 250 card pool (as in the extremely rich Rise of Eldrazi draft environment), there is a lot of depth. And not "I played five drafts and I wasn't even an expert yet!" deep, but "I actually did play several drafts a day for months and wasn't an expert yet" deep.

  • avatarsisteray

    I think that there are a number of converging elements that you aren't considering. Every year the choices of games to play grows. Along with it the industry grows, so we are seeing more worthwhile games each year than we would in 1980. The games that we remember from say 1980 make the year look great because we've forgotten the ones that aren't worth remembering, and we come away thinking that there were only a small number of fantastic games released then. Over the years these games have been played consistently and have given you these numbers. If you look to other games that may be good, but haven't stood the test of time like say Mr. President or Square Mile, their ideas have been used and updated in other newer models. We've created tools and languages for future models, and because of this we are able to create shortcuts for more savvy audiences. Now we are able to access similar experiences with less need for commitment.

    On top of all this, because the market has grown, we now have people that approach gaming for very different needs and desires. From this we get different results, and the market can more or less maintain releasing deeper games while also catering to people that strictly want variety (keep in mind that some games do both and some gamers enjoy both). I think that it would be naive to discount the multitude of deep boardgames that come out on a yearly basis even in this modern age. I think that this article looks to a number of things that might be worth examining, but I think that it fails to account for a swath of people playing published works from: Splotter, Winsome, GMT, Fantasy Flight, Warfrog/Treefrog, Sierra Madre, Columbia, et al. It would be difficult to play Dutch Revolution, Planet Steam, Eclipse, or Through the Ages and say that the designers are just going for variety.

  • JJJJS

    I've tried responding to/commenting on this a few times, but it is so disorganized and scattershot, I can't derive meaning from it. So forgive me if I'm off the mark.

    I think GMT still has the games. Go there. They have them.

    IMO, iPhone games and such aren't out to crush the long games. Their prey is crossword puzzle books.

    I whole-heartedly disagree with the comments on 3e DND. Min-maxing was not unique to 3e. And there is still the whole character death thing too in 4e.

    I do agree with you on the MMOs from a technical standpoint. I do think their model is to addict people, and industry professionals have, in so many words, said so. However, I much prefer to read about it here instead, because it's kinda scary. However, not many games are MMOs, so you still have choices. Deep ones. Might I suggest Europa Universalis III?

    All the other stuff people said that I agree with. Back then wasn't a utopia, the present isn't all bad. We're older and have more responsibilities and lots of long, deep games just aren't feasible now.

  • avatarjwoodall04

    I blame euros. :)

    Long live GMT!

    Actually, and more seriously, I think this is just the end result of a long lived trend in consumer culture. The pace of society for good or bad (depending on your worldview) has been drastically changed over the last fifty years. This gaming variety vs. length dilemma is but a symptom of a condition afflicting western society, who in turn pushes it onto other cultures. See Apple -> China and/or the rest of our manufactured disposables.

    /oldmannostalgia

  • avatarShellhead

    "We're older and have more responsibilities and lots of long, deep games just aren't feasible now."

    It seems like the average age of boardgamers went up a lot over the years. In theory, there should still be plenty of young players who don't have much in the way of responsibilities and have the time to play long, deep games. But they are probably playing console games instead. Comics are facing a similar demographic trend, but it's a bigger threat to the comic industry because comics are such a poor entertainment value today: $3 or $4 for a 10-minute read. Either way, an aging fanbase is a warning sign of a declining industry.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Let's not discount the fact that I can play Heroes of Might and Magic V and get all the fun and adventure found in Magic Realm, none of the setup and cleanup, and I don't need to find a group of 5 people to sit for 10 hours at my house to do it.

    Boardgames are for nostalgic people who are looking for a reason for people to come to their houses and hang out. Wii, Kinect, and the progression of technology is slowly proving that what cardboard can do, pixels will always be able to do better.

    If you say you'd rather smell mouldy cardboard and have an hour of setup time versus sit and play an EXACT replica of ASL with a friend 9000 miles away, you're either insane or nostalgic.

    The only thing games have is the tactile factor. Soon enough there will be a USB die set that you can roll, for real, and have the computer know the result...that will be the end of boardgame growth.

  • avatarlewpuls  - re:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:
    You know, I want to go back and clarify, or more to the point, have you clarify that 1-hour music thing.

    Were you talking about doing that REGULARLY, or simply once in a while getting a bug and listining to a song for an extended period...because if I'm trying to learn the song, I'll do that.

    Once in a while. Usually when I've just got a song I really liked 20-40 years ago.

    Eric Fromm (famous psychological writer back in the 50-60s) suggested that a good exercise to enable one to improve one's mental abilities was to focus on something (or nothing) for 20 minutes, doing nothing else. I'd find that difficult to do. But how many young people can you imagine successfully doing that, even if they were willing to try? Virtually none.

    Fortunately, research has shown that while constant multi-tasking degrades one's ability to think, people can do two tasks at once without much degradation. Such as listening to a song, and doing something else.

  • avatarlewpuls

    The guru of Web usability, Jakob Nielsen, often says "killing time is the killer app" for mobile devices. Killing time is the opposite of what's needed to successfully play a deep game.

    @Space Ghost (and dragonstout): as I understand it, much of the depth in MtG comes from the metagame, the construction of decks. Which changes every year, deliberately. The variety is immense when new cards come out and old cards are no longer usable every year. Should we count the metagame as part of the game, or as a separate game? As I absolutely refuse to play a game where I have to buy more stuff constantly to be fully competitive, I think of them as two separate games. And there's not a great deal of depth in the individual play of the game. In the metagame we have a puzzle, not a game: it can be solved, you can come up with a deck that's just as good as any anyone else can come up with. There's considerable puzzle depth in the MtG metagame, but not much gameplay depth.

    There may be tournament versions of the game that are much deeper than the standard game. I can only comment on the standard game that comes out of the box.

    Something most people agree on, is that almost all hobby gamers think that their favorite "deep" game is truly deep--we still respect the idea of depth, and most people recognize that gameplay depth involves brainpower. But some games must be deeper (or less deep) than others.

    Video games and RPGs can provide great variety within a game that boardgames are hard put to match. Yet video games tend to lack gameplay depth (may have other kinds, often puzzle depth). I try not to confine my discussions of games to one type, not wishing to be either a "vidiot" or a "tabledope."

    "With statements like
    Quote:
    Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning. These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning.

    It just comes off as bitter and old --- very 'Get off my lawnish'."

    (I was actually paraphrasing a comment to another post, on another site. I don't care whether you think it's bitter or old, which depends *entirely on your point of view*, the question is, how much truth is there to it?)

    @ubarose
    Commitment to planning within the play of game. That requires focus for the entire game, it requires an intention to take everything into account. It doesn't happen for people who (quite commonly) want everything to be obvious to begin with, or who want to fool around for half the game and then still have a chance to win it despite the inattention. And if we make the game three hours long--LOTS of people won't play a three hour game, let alone focus on planning within the game. Even in a game as tactical as 4e D&D, watch people play, especially teens/20-somethings: so many fool with their phones or their ipads or just ignore what's going on, that there's no chance to plan well ahead.

    @ldsdbomber
    There's certainly more variety available now. But I don't see how we can answer your question.

    However, the notion that people are just the same now as a generation or two ago is just plain wrong. There are consultants making lots of money helping older company leaders deal with the latest generation, and a considerable literature describing differences between Boomers, Gen Xers, and Millennials. Whether or not this is a consequence of differences in environment, it's a very real difference.

    @jason10mm
    Are we using "depth" the same way? King of Tokyo, as I understand it, is almost as shallow as Yahtzee. I'm not saying people shouldn't play such games, but short "screwage" games where you mess with your friends (which I like, by the way) do not have much gameplay depth in them.

    @sisteray
    Yes, as the gamer pool grows, we get a larger and larger proportion who play largely for entertainment, not for competition or for challenge. Gameplay depth involves the latter two, and because of the effort required may not qualify as light entertainment.

    @supe
    Playing a game with a friend 9000 miles away is much different than playing with the same friend five feet away. The #1 reason why Wii games have been so popular is that you're in the same room with the people you're playing with, as you would be with a boardgame.


    GMT: some deep games I'm sure; yet even there, their acquisition people prefer games that don't require a lot of planning, they like games where they can adapt or even improvise. Card driven games often involve adaptation or improvisation. Though we know that some people (James Pei) are much better players at these games than others, they may not be planner's games.

  • JJJJS  - re: re:
    lewpuls wrote:
    Eric Fromm (famous psychological writer back in the 50-60s) suggested that a good exercise to enable one to improve one's mental abilities was to focus on something (or nothing) for 20 minutes, doing nothing else. I'd find that difficult to do. But how many young people can you imagine successfully doing that, even if they were willing to try? Virtually none.


    Wow. You really hate kids. If you think they're so stupid, why try anything?

    To the contrary, my kids love board games. Between the Z-Man reprint of King and Things, Small World, and Cosmic Encounter, we stay pretty busy.

  • avatarSpace Ghost
    Quote:
    Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning. These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning

    The reason I said it was bitter sounding was shorthand for me just saying that your thesis is poorly supported. The whole article is a bunch of hemming-and-hawing with neither evidence or the thought of potential counter argument. Almost a post that is written in whimsy. It seems like a sweeping generalization that was formed on a few anecdotal observations.

    I don't play games with people who are distracted by their phones. And, I am unsure what your link is to planning. There are always people who have allowed technology to compensate for "planning", but it should be expected as we the technological paradigm shifts from cardboard to electronic.

    As for Magic, the game is one that you learn in stages. At first, it appears that all card plays are obvious. Then you learn some more subtleties. Then you uncover potential combinations and timing issues. It doesn't rely on staying on the "expansion wheel" to remain competitive. There is a whole type of play (Type II or Legacy) that allows any card (but the most ridiculously expensive). I still have a deck that I add an occasional card to from 2002 that is competitive. The depth is layered throughout the metagame, down through deckbuilding, down to actual gameplay.

  • avatarNagajur

    1) There is more disposable income for entertainment. This might be shortsighted in lieu of poorly funded retirement accounts.

    That is all.

  • avatarJackwraith

    I agree that this piece largely lacks focus and ends up degenerating into what seems like a lot of "how good it was in the old days" meandering. If the original thesis was "variety" and "depth", I think you lost track of that around the time you started mentioning RPGs and, in fact, are trying to confine two very broad terms to an argument that doesn't fully address either.

    Role-playing, at its root, resists systemic classification because the game can essentially be whatever the GM wants it to be. If he wants to focus on story (an example of depth) over mechanics, as with much of White Wolf's World of Darkness, he can. But those mechanics still exist and any WoD campaign could have easily become "dungeon of the week" (an example of variety.) I think you're letting your own biases concerning the different versions of D&D overwhelm you there.

    Similarly when addressing video games: not all games are meant to have the classic definition of "depth." Since you brought up WoW, let's look at Blizzard. The Diablo series has endless variety in the form of shifting powers on monsters and the constant loot explosions, but little depth. Starcraft, OTOH, always uses the same units that do the same things, and is heralded as one of the greatest RTSs (and video games) ever produced precisely because of its depth. WoW, OTOH, just like RPGs, has both depending on how the individual player wants to approach it. Your overbroad and short-sighted condemnation of the player base (i.e. that people aren't interested in the "grind" and only want to play at the level cap) is pretty far off the mark. I'm just one anecdotal example, as I have 8 or 9 toons from lvl16 to 85, all of which I play pretty regularly ("Hi! My name's Jack and I'm an altoholic.") Playing that many toons and classes means that enjoying the leveling process is the point. Also, given the extraordinary practice and strategy needed to deal with much of the endgame content (yes, I was a regular raider at one point), depth is not something that the game is lacking, regardless of the overwhelming level of variety inherent to it.

    But let's bring it back to boardgames. You're lamenting the fact that people don't seem to have the patience/willpower/time to indulge in games of great depth these days. While I agree with you to some degree that society has become less focused and faster-paced (the slowly declining attendance at major collegiate sporting events by once-fanatical student bodies is theorized as an unwillingness by modern youths to spend 3 hours focused on one event, especially gathered in a large stadium that may inhibit text traffic...), a lot of your argument, when it does focus on boardgames, comes off as a rant from Consimworld and not a clearly reasoned one at that, based again on what I think may be your fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts of "depth" and "variety".

    Classic boardgames, like Go and Chess, have depth, in that the pieces and board never change, but the possible contortions of gameplay are legendary. However, either of those can last anywhere from minutes to hours. A classic AH game like Siege of Jerusalem, which I've never been able to finish in less than 10 hours, despite its lengthy playing time, does not necessarily have depth. It has detail. Overwhelming detail. It is that detail and adherence to historical simulacra which creates play time and requires focus by the players, not depth. Most games of Siege turn on a couple factors and often end in similar fashion. The same cannot be said of games with genuine depth.

    What I find most difficult to understand about your argument is the seeming assertion that variety and depth are independent of one another. The implication is that you can't have both; to the point wherein you state that M:TG has enormous variety (it does) but lacks depth, which is patently ridiculous, given the essential simplicity of its mechanics (akin to chess) and the millions of pathways that the game can take, even with just a small portion of that variety. Understand that I am far from making a direct comparison here, as the two games are very different. But it becomes apparent later in your piece and then also later in this thread that your attitude toward M:TG is based moreso on your distaste for its collectible nature, rather than its implied lack of depth and/or the unwillingness of its players to sit down and focus for a few hours. As a twice-recovered tournament player, let me say that I sympathize with your distaste for its cash cow nature, but disagree completely with the idea that regular players lack focus or patience or willpower or whatever it is you think modern game players lack. On the contrary, I've rarely been around better and more intensely focused game players than I was when regularly playing tourneys.

    So, I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the essential basis of any argument based on depth and/or variety, since that's clearly not what you made, subsumed as it was by essential flaws and personal biases about a variety of games. But, just as an example, let's talk about Chaos in the Old World.

    This is a modern game, playable in a couple hours or less, that drips with both variety (in both forms: random world events, dice, random draws of cards, etc. and (with the expansion) plenty of varying interactions among pieces and cards, as well as an entirely alternate card set) and depth (the replayability is enormous and I've never had a game end the same way twice.) F:AT, which has a wide range of opinions on boardgames, including those who dislike games that take 5 or 6 hours, has an almost universally positive opinion about this game. To play it well, it requires patience, focus, and even willpower (there's a certain element of risk involved in many strategies.) And, yet, people of all ages on this site find it engaging. What exactly does that one, isolated example say about your broad assertions?

  • avatardragonstout  - re:
    lewpuls wrote:

    @Space Ghost (and dragonstout): as I understand it, much of the depth in MtG comes from the metagame, the construction of decks. Which changes every year, deliberately. The variety is immense when new cards come out and old cards are no longer usable every year. Should we count the metagame as part of the game, or as a separate game? As I absolutely refuse to play a game where I have to buy more stuff constantly to be fully competitive, I think of them as two separate games. And there's not a great deal of depth in the individual play of the game. In the metagame we have a puzzle, not a game: it can be solved, you can come up with a deck that's just as good as any anyone else can come up with. There's considerable puzzle depth in the MtG metagame, but not much gameplay depth.

    It appears you ignored my post completely, where I was talking about draft environments. They make a new draft environment every year, true, but each SINGLE draft environment is itself a self-contained game with plenty of depth. Drafting also has little to do with metagaming (leaving aside your absurd statement that the metagame can be "solved" like a puzzle, which only happens when the designers have screwed up). As for there being a great deal of depth in the individual play of the game: first of all, I'd say there's significant depth in the individual play of the game (it's been estimated that the average player at a high-level tournament makes multiple tactical mistakes every turn), but sure, there are deeper games...if all you count as "the game of Magic" as starting when you draw your opening hand. But that's patently false: in a draft, the game starts when the draft starts; drafting your deck is part of the game. There is a ton of depth involved in the draft. And it involves no more metagaming than in any other multiplayer game.

    You say

    Quote:
    There may be tournament versions of the game that are much deeper than the standard game. I can only comment on the standard game that comes out of the box.

    First of all, it's absurd to not take the tournament version into consideration; that'd be like not considering duplicate Bridge in a discussion of Bridge. And even so, you above, when talking of the game's flaws, talk specifically of the tournament version where you can only use cards from the past two years. In the game that comes out of the box (and for five out of the seven tournament formats as well), there is no forced obsoletion at all.

    Overall, you come across as having classic BGG beliefs about Magic: based on a few plays, you think the gameplay isn't deep; and based on what you've heard about tournaments, there's forced obsoletion.

    I'd bet that a single draft environment (or Standard environment, for that matter) in Magic gets more plays in the 4 months where it's hammered than Dragon Rage has gotten in its entire lifetime, without anyone "solving" it. New cards are not necessary to make the game deep.

  • avatardragonstout  - re:
    Jackwraith wrote:
    But, just as an example, let's talk about Chaos in the Old World.
    ... F:AT...has an almost universally positive opinion about this game.

    As a complete aside, just out of curiosity: is there a single person on F:AT other than me who doesn't like this game?

  • avatarsgosaric  - gaming changes only reflect social changes

    You can't go about explaining how gaming changed without realising how society changed, hence place of gaming in society changed as well. People 30-40 years ago played games differently, well they were different people, living in a different social environment.

    1. LEISURE TIME
    In general with working time being more and more flexible and there's always more work to be done, people will have less time. Also hobby gaming in US as I understand it, was developed for people with a lot of time, namely students, while boardgaming hobby in particular is interesting to those older gamers (30+) who don't have that time on their hands (RPG means heavy time commitment for the whole group with regular schedule). There are now parents will small kids gaming, who wan't to put in a short 30 min game before sending kids to sleep.

    2. THE PARADOX OF CHOICE
    In general with development in consumerism being such as it is, people have huge amount of choices available to them. 40 years ago you could buy 1 type of jeans which didn't fit anybody, but you wore it and liked it, now there's a gazillion of different cuts and colour and they fit you bette,r and you look better, but you're wasting more time deciding on a choice than enjoying wearing a pair and furthermore you're always unsure whether you made the right choice. 40 years ago you made the only choice possible and you were happy with it, now you're always suspicions that there's a better game somewhere out there that you missed.

    3. SPOILED BRATS
    You might have missed a memo, but that's what us younger generations are: permissive upbringing, loads of irrelevant choices and that' what you get. This means:
    A) we want instant gratification. Now. Long rules, numbered paragraphs, are you nuts, I could be playing 1st person shooter right now.
    B) living in a fluffy land - our skin is thinner and we get hurt oh so easily, hence we need friendly games, no feeling hurt, as they get hurt sooner than with older generations.
    C) we're older, but we're still kids. That's why there's more older people gaming than before.
    D) to sum it up: - on a recent thread on TOS somebody explained the cult of the new with: "not everybody has time to devote to one game, so it's unfair or unfun to the rest to let such people win as it creates bad feelings (we get hurt easily) and so we want to play games where everybody, even a newbie can win their first or second game (instant gratification).

    Bottom line: we're different kinds of people living in a different kind of social environment playing different type of games for a different kind of investment that was the case 30-40 years ago.

  • avatarDukeofChutney

    i think, whilst your arguements work for video games, you still have to be selective. Saving and quick saving has been around along time now. But i agree that most modern video games dont force you to make long term irriversible decisions (see the discussions around the new bioshock type game 1999 mode).

    I find it interesting that people don't want death in games. I love roguelike games because of the seriousness of death in them.

    In the most recent DnD game i played (4E) i behave pretty suicidaly as a low level cleric. searched for traps by walking into them etc, but i could just power on with my health surges and high hp stat.

  • avatarAdamK
    Quote:
    That fundamental change is that 30-40 years ago many hobby game players looked for gameplay depth (and occasionally narrative depth) in their games. Now most game players don’t look for gameplay depth but look instead for variety, which is quite a different thing.

    Hobby board gaming has spread out from its niche to encompass a larger world, and with more players, you're bound to see more variety. But I think you are mistaken by saying that players don't look for depth.

    Just take a look at some of the commonly highest ranked games - Twilight Struggle, War Of The Ring, Mage Knight - these are very deep games. They have a richness and complexity to them that rivals anything put out in the 70s or 80s combined with modern mechanics and polish that often puts their elder brethren to shame.

    One of the most lauded releases of the last couple of years was Dominant Species. Have you seen this game? Can you possibly claim that it isn't deep?

    Not that gamers have forgotten some of the older games either - look at the hype surrounding the rereleases of Dune and Merchant Of Venus.

    Heck, look at Battlestar Galactica. That's a massively popular game, and while it might not be as complex as some of the old Avalon Hill releases, it is far from trivial.

    There's still an appetite for depth out there. There's also a lot of variety in the amount of depth you can find. And that's a good thing.

  • avatarShellhead  - re: gaming changes only reflect social changes
    sgosaric wrote:

    D) to sum it up: - on a recent thread on TOS somebody explained the cult of the new with: "not everybody has time to devote to one game, so it's unfair or unfun to the rest to let such people win as it creates bad feelings (we get hurt easily) and so we want to play games where everybody, even a newbie can win their first or second game (instant gratification).

    You made a lot of good points, but I disagree with this one. Those TOSsers are a bunch of sad nancy boys if they can't enjoy a day of boardgames without winning at least once. Fuck them. They can't handle adversity, and they can't just enjoy a game for the sheer fun of playing, they have to obsess over winning. That's pathetic. And mathematically, they should stick to two-player games if they feel that way, so there is only one person at the table who might beat them instead of several. This is why America is headed downhill, modern Americans are so weak compared to the people who survived the Great Depression and won World War II.

  • avatarChapel  - re:
    AdamK wrote:


    Hobby board gaming has spread out from its niche to encompass a larger world, and with more players, you're bound to see more variety. But I think you are mistaken by saying that players don't look for depth.

    ...

    One of the most lauded releases of the last couple of years was Dominant Species. Have you seen this game? Can you possibly claim that it isn't deep?

    I love Dominant Species, but you still have to remember, that it is rated a lauded heavily on a site that in itself is a tiny niche. DS has ~3700 rantings on BGG, yet the site got ~17 million unique visitors last year. Who knows what those other 16.9 million users might enjoy? DS is a deep game, but not one I can throw at just anyone.

  • avatarubarose

    Overall this article and some of the discussion implies that young people have short attention spans, lack focus, are easily distracted and need to be constantly entertained. I know that is not the main focus of the article, but the undercurrent seems to be there. I see this theory in various forms all over the media. I think it's a bunch of BS written by older people who have little daily contact with teens and young adults. All the "kids" I know spend large cunks of their free time intensly focused on activities and hobbies that they feel passionate about. They learn to play musical instruments and practice, sometimes to the point of driving their parents a little nuts; they memorize lines and rehearse plays; they write stories, poetry, songs, 'novels',journals and blogs; they write apps and build websites; they train and practice sports and dance; they teach themselves forgein languages, cooking, auto repair, drawing and painting...

    I think that older people who buy into the SPOILED BRAT theory must only see the 'younger generation' during their downtime - when their minds and bodies are taking a break from all the disciplined and focused activity of their daily lives.

  • avatarMattLoter

    Fuck the Kids!

  • avatarubarose  - re:
    MattLoter wrote:
    Fuck the Kids!


    You are such a brat :)

  • avatarInfinityMax

    My kids focus on stuff just fine. My son will spend an entire Saturday working on a woodworking project. My daughter will study for four hours at a stretch. And I've played board games with them that took six hours to finish. I could go on - my daughter used to practice baritone from the time she got home from school to the time she went to bed. My son read the entire Game of Thrones series of books in a week.

    And speaking of video games, anyone in my house could, given an adequate amount of free time, play Oblivion for eight hours. And believe me when I tell you that you most certainly do not want to die - reloading is a bitch, especially if you haven't saved since you took out that elder dragon two hours ago.

    Do you actually know any kids?

  • avatarsgosaric  - re: re: gaming changes only reflect social changes
    Shellhead wrote:
    You made a lot of good points, but I disagree with this one. Those TOSsers are a bunch of sad nancy boys if they can't enjoy a day of boardgames without winning at least once. Fuck them. They can't handle adversity, and they can't just enjoy a game for the sheer fun of playing, they have to obsess over winning. That's pathetic. And mathematically, they should stick to two-player games if they feel that way, so there is only one person at the table who might beat them instead of several. This is why America is headed downhill, modern Americans are so weak compared to the people who survived the Great Depression and won World War II.


    Hahaha. Made my day.

    I used this example was for underlining a point I was making as it seemed symptomatic to what the article is about.
    I didn't say I agree with their viewpoint.

    Edit.1.: I can brag that I went playing online Diplomacy knowing I'll be upset, I was for 2-3 weeks, then I got over it and began winning. I do try to, hmm not sure how to put this in English - upbring myself (?).
    Edit.2.: Don't forget to take your daily dose of pills, senior.

    to Uba:
    I never meant to diss younger generations. We're all spoiled brats, myself included, probably everybody under 50 is (in the US my guess would be that baby boom generation already falls into this). Depending on their upbringing, of course, it can be to a greater or lesser extent. But it's getting more and more dominant (more prevalent in cities where traditional values are not as strong). Further reading:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture_of_Narcissism
    Also Žižek had a great article on the subject with pychoanalitcal theory thrown in, not sure if it's translated. Here's something: http://www.scribd.com/CavalierMez/d/55282238/34-Pathological-Narcissism

  • avatarSpace Ghost

    An updated version of The Culture of Narcissim is

    Generation Me by Jean Twenge

    She presents tons and tons of data since World War II that illustrates the change in perceptions around narcissim/self-esteem, etc. A lot of behavioral differences, both bad (unrealistic expectations and ungrounded self-esteem) and good (greater generosity, more public works, etc.) are explored. Good book.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT  - re:
    lewpuls wrote:

    @supe
    Playing a game with a friend 9000 miles away is much different than playing with the same friend five feet away. The #1 reason why Wii games have been so popular is that you're in the same room with the people you're playing with, as you would be with a boardgame.

    That's kind of what I meant - with Kinect, Move, and Wii, you have alternative reasons to have 4 friends come over, and on the other hand, you have StarCraft, Heroes of Might and Magic, and other games that deliver varying levels of depth that fill the boardgame niche yet do not require collecting 4 people to play with locally (who may not even exist) and doesn't require the setup/teardown and bookkeeping hassles associated with this.

    One can even play D&D over Skype or other NetMeeting type software!

    And, I'll reiterate, the only advantage that board games have over digital games is the tactile "touchy feely" aspect of picking up a physical model (meaning Heroscape Toy) and placing it somewhere; rolling dice and hoping for skulls.

    Ex Illis tried, and failed, to merge the two, but they weren't so far off the mark. Some companies are building multi-touch tables to play games on as well. At some point, someone will come up with a solution to the PC/TOY SOLDIER interface and that will be that for boardgames. Only the dinosaurs and luddites will be playing them.

    Finally, I'm with Matt on the attention span thing: SOME kids are ADD prone, but hardly anyone would have a problem sitting and playing Oblivion, Skyrim, or another game for 8 hours. I know that I'd be FAR more interested in playing Oblivion for 8 hours than I would playing a Civ-builder boardgame, but that has 100% to do with downtime.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    This article is nonsense for a couple of reasons. It's definitely a "my view from the old folks home" piece.

    First off, is it 30 or 40 years ago that this Utopian wonderland of deep games and gamers that were able to truly appreciate them existed? Because the games being played in 1972 were very, very different than the games being played in 1982.

    Second, it all comes down to access. If in 1972 (or 1982) people had the kind of access to information about games that they do now- and the access to being able to buy them- they would have bought and played just as much variety as they do now. There hasn't been a cultural change there- people just have the ability to get to more games than they did in past times. This doesn't mean that anyone- including YOU- wouldn't have had more games, played more games,and wanted more games if you knew they existed and were able to buy them.

    Third, there are more gamers today than there likely ever have been due to the access noted above. This means games cover a wider spectrum of depth levels, tastes, and commitment requirements. There may be more people playing ASL today than there were in the 1980s.

    Fourth, this whole idea of playing owning a couple of favorite games rather than having a massive collection of seldom played ones is a well-trod discussion here. The folks here are much more likely to have smaller collections and play the same games repeatedly to get the depth out of them. Nothing particularly new to see here.

    Fifth, You don't list any games to demonstrate how these vaunted games of yore (1972 or 1982, was it?) display depth over variety. The only game titles in here are D&D, World of Warcraft (WTF?), Magic, Yugioh, and a simple, long but not all that deep wargame called Britannia. And seriously, to imply that there's no depth in Magic because they change the cards...are you joking???

    Sixth- your video game discussions must all be second hand. You write like someone who has talked to someone else that plays video games but without having any kind of meaningfully current experience with the medium. If you think gamers today don't have favorite games or whatever, you are very out of touch. You're also out of touch if you think that there's no depth even in games like the Call of Duty games- the multiplayer is quite deep, and offers MANY "meaningful choices" that directly impact the player's performance. You sound like a guy that quit playing video games around Ultima VII and assumes that everything beyond that is crap. Quit while you're ahead.

    Seventh- do you even play modern tabletop games? It doesn't sound like it. As other posters have mentioned, there are TONS of games with substantial depth, and these games allow players to get at the depth much more easily due to shorter play times and more highly evolved rules writing. Mage Knight is a great, recent example of a tremendously rich game that doesn't require ten hours and fifty pages of horribly written rules to be "deep". There are also plenty of modern wargames- which are very popular- that are _better_ than those published 30-40 years ago if only because the playability level is higher and more folks can enjoy them.

    Eighth- to suggest that we're a "jaded society" because there are more options and variety available is bullshit. Again, access to things like music is much greater and the ability for people to appreciate things is increasing. Sure, a 15 year old kid may not listen to a Black Flag record 500 times and might have it in a rotation of ten other American hardcore records, but we're in a day and age where that 15 year old kid can actually get to that music easily and doesn't have to rely on the radio or MTV to hear new music or listen to old music. In games, people are MUCH more aware of and interested in old games now than they were even ten years ago. People seek out games like Merchant of Venus and Up Front because the knowledge of them is greater. They're part of the great variety we have available, that is absolutely a blessing and not a curse.

    Unless you're a bitter old man watching the game design world pass you by. Which this article- and your previous one- makes you sound like.

    The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with some of your points. Depth is often sacrificed for variety. That isn't necessarily bad, and the good news is that there are PLENTY of games available that offer depth for those willing to commit to them, both old and new.

  • avatarmikecl

    Man, getting through this thread has been like reading War and Peace. What a lot of rhetoric. Yep there are more boardgames today than in the 70's and 80's which means they got played more often.

    Back then, with no videogames, computers and only six television channels there wasn't much else to do but game and read. I became a rated chess player because I had the time to study the game and there really wasn't a lot competing for my attention.

    Games were less streamlined because time wasn't at a premium as much as it is today. There weren't as many niche games either. Back then, I played a lot of Tactics II, Panzer Blitz, Squad Leader, Diplomacy, Origins of World War II, Quebec 1759, Nuclear War (Flying Buffalo) Magic Realm, Cosmic Encounter, Quirks, Wizards Quest, Dungeonquest, Talisman and Mystic Woods etc...

    Today I've got Wilderness War, War of the Ring, Twilight Struggle, Android, Descent, Arkham Horror, Dominant Species, High Frontier, Origins: How We Became Human, Through the Ages, Merchants and Marauders and Mage Knight to name a few (would have TI3 but I don't have a large group to game with anymore.

    I don't think any generation has had a monopoly on depth. Board gamers in any age were and are thinkers by definition. It's what makes victory sweet. I don't play wargames as much as I used to because I don't have that kind of time any more).

    I think on average, games are better designed today than they were then...although there are exceptions: Dune, Magic Realm and Merchants of Venus still hold their own today. Many of the early games were unnecessarily complex. That's not depth.

    My observation is this: we're in a golden age for board gaming unparalleled in my experience. I don't know how long it will last, but I'm grateful for it.

  • JJJJS  - re:

    You guys who are letting a discussion about design trends in board gaming fly off the rails into a discussion about society at large without any proof of causation and applying age old prejudices about youth just make me laugh.

    Also, turning it into yet another us vs. them F:ATties vs. TOSers is hilarious too. Looking at two of the most popular Eurogames on that site, I see Agricola and Caylus. Love them or hate them, those are two games that if you don't get your early turns right, you're dead over the next 2-3 hours.

    So keep up the hilarity. I've got some popcorn going.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    "I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now, what it is is weird and scary"-

    Grandpa Simpson

  • avatarubarose  - re: re:
    JJJJS wrote:
    You guys who are letting a discussion about design trends in board gaming fly off the rails into a discussion about society at large without any proof of causation and applying age old prejudices about youth just make me laugh.

    Well, the author concludes his article with:

    Quote:
    Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning. These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning.

    Which implies to me that he feels the design trends in board gaming are a result of changes in society at large, i.e. people lack patience and commitment. Furthermore, his repeated reference to younger gamers, gives me the impression that the "people" he is refering to are these younger gamers. I'm assuming he is talking about the Generation Y/Millennials, since the present generation (2000-present) are too young to be playing many deep board games, and Gen X is really too old to be called "younger gamers."

    So the conversation is really on the rails that the author set it on.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    I agree with Uba...and WTF is up with that cellphone comment anyway? People use cellphones to "compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning"...that makes no sense, and smacks- again- of cane-shaking oldmanism. Seriously, is the connection being drawn between cellphones and their precipate "lack of interest in planning" and the decline of depth in games?

    If that's the case...wow.

  • avatarMattLoter

    I'd be happy to start talking about boners and/or how much I hate homophobia if you prefer JJJJJJJS.

  • avatarShellhead  - re:
    Michael Barnes wrote:
    I agree with Uba...and WTF is up with that cellphone comment anyway? People use cellphones to "compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning"...that makes no sense, and smacks- again- of cane-shaking oldmanism. Seriously, is the connection being drawn between cellphones and their precipate "lack of interest in planning" and the decline of depth in games?

    If that's the case...wow.

    You are fortunate to have never dealt with flaky people with cell phones. Some people are pathologically incapable of sticking to a plan and leave everybody else trying to keep up.

    I was once trying to meet up with my (former) girlfriend at the State Fair. I kept pressing her about a meeting place, because the Minnesota State Fair is the second largest state fair in the United States, with more than 100,000 people there on a slow day. "Just tell me where to meet you." She couldn't decide and told me to just show up and call her when I got there. Unfortunately, it was so loud there that she couldn't hear her phone ringing half the time. And when she did hear it ring, there was too much background noise to hear each other clearly. After an hour of this stupidity, I went home alone.

    I've also had a maddening experience with friends who wanted to meet up while bar-hopping. Thanks to their dumbshittery, we couldn't just pick a time and place to meet, we kept missing each other while texting and phoning back and forth. Never met up that night.

    All that said, I don't think that ties directly to depth versus variety, except maybe in a general Myers-Briggs (P vs. J) kind of way.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT  - re:
    Michael Barnes wrote:
    ...oldmanism...

    http://manilovefilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/5thElemernt.jpg

    PRAISE BE TO GARY OLDMAN! ALL GLORY TO THE OLDMAN!

    Shellhead wrote:
    All that said, I don't think that ties directly to depth versus variety, except maybe in a general Myers-Briggs (P vs. J) kind of way.

    Or perhaps, "Voight-Kampff" kind of way?

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    You know, I was thinking about something.

    30-40 years ago? That was 1970-1980. It was the age of arcades with hundreds of games and the expansion of computer games. The old days of Super Mario. There was a shitload of variety out there, even then, and depth.

    People have always been able to get what they wanted. And it's always been there.

    I think back to boardgames back then and there really weren't any hobby boardgames other than wargames, especially in the beginning. That and D&D.

    So, it really hasn't been until the 90s, and the mid- to late- 90s that boardgames started really expanding to include much other than wargames. Shit, Settlers of Catan wasn't even published until 1995, and that seems to be the starting point for Euros, at least in my mind.

    Before that, there was Risk, Monopoly, kids games, and A-H games.

    So it's not really the last 30-40 years, it's more like the last 15 years, and the real difference hasn't been that tastes have "changed" through some enigmatic process of natural selection or something, it's that the European game market came to America, and through a variety of circumstances made their way into the mainstream of the board game hobby.

    It was at that point that games no longer had to be wargames, economic games (3M, Gibsons, AH), or Monopoly/Scrabble games.

    There simply wasn't much of a hobby to speak of, other than the oft stereotyped Zork-playing, ASL loving, Battle of the Bulge re-enactors.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nigRT2KmCE

    So it's not that the hobby as changed, so much, as EMERGED. Developed.

    At least that's my opinion, after further review.

  • avatarShellhead  - re:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:

    30-40 years ago? That was 1970-1980...

    I think back to boardgames back then and there really weren't any hobby boardgames other than wargames, especially in the beginning. That and D&D.

    You're forgetting some very influential games:

    Dune
    Magic Realm
    Wiz-War
    Cosmic Encounter
    Titan
    Civilization
    Junta
    Star Fleet Battles

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Not forgetting; those kind of fall into the AH/Gibsons games I was talking about. The Games Workshop stuff like MR kind of fall into the "D&D" I was thinking about, in my mind.

    I'm not sure what 1982 Judge Dredd is, but it falls into the Talisman area, although Talisman came out in 83 or 84 if I recall (I bought me that shit!) as I was in 5th grade when I got that. Still just adventure/Zork games. I guess maybe that was still the D&D crowd playing those over the ASL crowd. Definitely not a hobby in and of itself as boardgaming is today.

    There just weren't that many games available, and those that were fell into some very finite categories, with most being abstractions of wargames, excepting the Fantasy games, which were riding the D&D wave.

    Anyhow, I was literally 6 when Civilization came out, and my uncle, who was a history professor, would crack out those games in the basement, loaded with hex-maps and boxes of markers/counters, those were as foreign to me as Chinese math.

  • avatardragonstout  - re:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:
    Not forgetting; those kind of fall into the AH/Gibsons games I was talking about.

    The Games Workshop stuff like MR kind of fall into the "D&D" I was thinking about, in my mind.

    I don't really give a shit about this thread/argument...but Pete, when you've got a connection to the internet, there's no need to completely talk out of your ass without any fact-checking.

    Disregarding the preposterous previous post that all hobby games prior to Settlers were wargames or economic games (out of "Barnes' 10 Best" of the 1980s, there is one debatable wargame; hell, fucking MAGIC came out before Settlers, that was a seismic change in the hobby), let's just look at these two sentences in the next post:
    - Games Workshop did not publish Magic Realm
    - wait, so fantasy games don't count, 'cause they're all D&D?
    - the games Shellhead listed that you claim fall into the AH/Gibsons category: only half of them fall into that category. Neither Wiz-War, Junta, Cosmic Encounter, nor Star Fleet Battles were published by AH or Gibsons (though to be fair, Shellhead also messed up, 'cause Wiz-War was not published in 1970-1980).

  • avatarmikecl

    Nonsense Pete, there were a lot more than hobby games than you think. Everything Shellhead said, plus everything on my original list(off the top of my head)and more:

    Tactics II - 1959
    Diplomacy - 1959
    Quebec 1759 - 1972
    Origins of World War 2 - 1977
    Panzer Blitz -1970
    Nuclear War -1965
    Squad Leader - 1977
    Magic Realm - 1977
    Cosmic Encounter - 1977
    Quirks - 1980
    Dune - 1979
    Wizards Quest - 1979
    Gladiator - 1981
    Gunslinger - 1982
    Survive - 1982
    Dungeonquest - 1985
    Talisman - 1983
    Mystic Woods - 1980
    Gammarauders - 1987
    Merchants of Venus - 1988

    And the games in MY collection are just a sliver of what was out there. There were LOTS of hobby board games. They keep remaking them today ie: Survive, Comsic, Merchants etc.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT  - re:
    mikecl wrote:
    Nonsense Pete, there were a lot more than hobby games than you think.

    Maybe so, but remember what I said...they were primarily either wargames or fantasy games. And the "hobby" was broken into wargamers and D&D folks, pretty much straight down party lines, with some crossover. It wasn't a very large hobby as it is today, even as small as it is.

    Quote:

    Tactics II - 1959 (WG)
    Diplomacy - 1959 (WG)
    Quebec 1759 - 1972 (WG)
    Origins of World War 2 - 1977 (WG)
    Panzer Blitz -1970 (WG)
    Nuclear War -1965 (WG)
    Squad Leader - 1977 (WG)
    Magic Realm - 1977 (FG)
    Cosmic Encounter - 1977 (Hmm..WG/FG?)
    Quirks - 1980 (WTF?)
    Dune - 1979 (WG)
    Wizards Quest - 1979 (FG)
    Gladiator - 1981 (?)
    Gunslinger - 1982 (WG)
    Survive - 1982 (This was NOT a fucking hobby game, it was a Parker Brothers family game)
    Dungeonquest - 1985 (FG)
    Talisman - 1983 (FG)
    Mystic Woods - 1980 (FG)
    Gammarauders - 1987 (WG)
    Merchants of Venus - 1988 (This, arguably, was one of the best examples of emergent design, IMO)

    You kind of made my point. Hell, 4 companies made 99% of the games above. TSR, AH, GW...and Parker Brothers. Add to that Gibsons and you have pretty much all the board game companies in the world, more or less.

    There wasn't much out there. That list is about the same length as THIS LAST YEAR'S FFG CATALOG.

  • avatardragonstout  - re: re:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:

    Nuclear War -1965 (WG)
    Cosmic Encounter - 1977 (Hmm..WG/FG?)
    Gunslinger - 1982 (WG)
    Gammarauders - 1987 (WG)

    I think you should post that these are wargames in the Wargame forum on BGG just to see some 'sploding heads.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Yeah, the same guys who think Agricola is the best game ever made are going to tell me that.

    They're chit and counter wargames. Some have a little more variety in units, granted, but at the end of the day, they're all about little cardboard units fucking other cardboard units' shit up.

    Cosmic...that's tough. I'm not sure how I'd classify it. Gammarauders is more a FG than a WG, that was a typo. It's a TSR game....

    My point is that the folks who played D&D would be the same to play Car Wars or Gunslinger or Cosmic where the guys who played Rise and Decline of the 3rd Reich...ARE STILL PLAYING IT.

    It's the market that's changed is all I'm saying. The hobby wasn't really a hobby in the same sense it is today. There were re-enactors and roleplayers. Now there's more to it, and it wasn't until the mid 90s that the real changes started to happen.

    I guess I'm refuting the OPs thesis on a timing basis, really.

  • jason10mm

    For the future of physical component / digital gameplay, look at that skylanders game, toy line, thing. You get a cute figurine that you mount on a pad to download your stats to a video game. Won't be long before they come up with a board game that uses the figures as well.

  • avatarmikecl  - re: re: re:

    @

    dragonstout wrote:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:

    Nuclear War -1965 (WG)
    Cosmic Encounter - 1977 (Hmm..WG/FG?)
    Gunslinger - 1982 (WG)
    Gammarauders - 1987 (WG)


    I think you should post that these are wargames in the Wargame forum on BGG just to see some 'sploding heads.

    What he said. Let's not forget Columbia, Mayfair and West End games which made Star Trek, the Adventure Game in 1985 -- a good game to this day. Sid Sackson was making games and Steve Jackson released Ogre in 1977. TSR released Gammarauders with Larry Emore Art in 1987. Eon Products was making games like Cosmic Encounter, Quirks, Darkover and Avalon Hill was turning out a ton of games across all genres including Dune, Magic Realm, Merchants of Venus and Gunslinger. Eon had designers like Jack Kittredge, Bill Eberle, and Peter Olotka

    I can't think of all the independent publishers like Eon Products that were out there, but there were a ton of titles. I know. I was there.

    The hobby actually slowed in the 1990's compared to what had been out there in the 70's and 80's until a new generation of gamers discovered them and the old time gamers came back to the hobby in numbers.

  • avatarubarose

    Screw the argument with Pete. It's boring.

    What I want to know, is if you take the list of the best games from 1970-1980, eliminate all the actual wargames, which of the remaining games have depth of gameplay that requires serious strategic thinking, patience and a commitment to planning. And don't confuse a commitment to sit on your butt for 4 hours with a commitment to planning and executing a mentally challenging strategy.

    Talisman - no
    Awful Green Things - no
    Merchant of Venus - no
    Cosmic Encounter - no
    Circus Maximus - no
    Survive -no
    Wiz-War - no
    221B Baker Street - no
    Gammarauders - no
    Dungeonquest - no

    So what do we have left. Dune, Civilization. What else. Can we even come up with a list of 10 non- wargames games over a decade that proves Lew's point that game design 30-40 years ago had less variety and more depth.

  • avatarMattLoter

    Diplomacy was obviously still around then (as it is today) and getting played quite a bit, but I dunno if that counts for what you're looking for.

  • avatarInfinityMax

    My favorite game is Warhammer Quest. That's only about 20 years old, though. Can we grandfather it in?

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    Can't be done Shellie. He'is talking out of his ass.

    Besides, such a list coming from someone who thinks that there's no depth in Magic because they change the cards and that there are no meaningful decisions in co-ops should be regarded as suspect at best, laughable at worst.

  • avatarsisteray  - re: re:
    dragonstout wrote:
    Jackwraith wrote:
    But, just as an example, let's talk about Chaos in the Old World.
    ... F:AT...has an almost universally positive opinion about this game.


    As a complete aside, just out of curiosity: is there a single person on F:AT other than me who doesn't like this game?

    It isn't that I don't like it, but I find it so dependent on balance that if a player gets hammered the guy to his left wins, and when it works as it should I would rather be playing El Grande.

  • avatardaveroswell

    TITS!

    phsew...yeah...I do feel better...

  • JJJJS  - re: re: re:
    ubarose wrote:
    JJJJS wrote:
    You guys who are letting a discussion about design trends in board gaming fly off the rails into a discussion about society at large without any proof of causation and applying age old prejudices about youth just make me laugh.


    Well, the author concludes his article with:
    Quote:
    Playing a game with deep gameplay usually requires patience and a commitment to planning. These characteristics are in short supply nowadays as people rely on their cell phones to provide both distractions (time killing) and a way to compensate for poor planning or lack of interest in planning.


    Which implies to me that he feels the design trends in board gaming are a result of changes in society at large, i.e. people lack patience and commitment. Furthermore, his repeated reference to younger gamers, gives me the impression that the "people" he is refering to are these younger gamers. I'm assuming he is talking about the Generation Y/Millennials, since the present generation (2000-present) are too young to be playing many deep board games, and Gen X is really too old to be called "younger gamers."

    So the conversation is really on the rails that the author set it on.


    Well, he's begging the question with that conclusion, so there were barely any rails in the first place. Then in the comments there is a discussion about the WWII Generation and nancy boys and books about narcissism and how it's TOS's fault because the Euro players are too worried about winning. It's all just thrown out there like talk radio. Ergo, off the rails. It's come back to you guys talking games since I was online this morning, which is good.

    Back on topic, I agree with you. I can't name old non-war games that meet your criteria. I didn't even think ADND was all that deep. I'm guessing his problem is that war games today don't favor epic play times. Given his avatar is FFG's reprint of Britannia, that's what he's into. Long, epic, war games of yore.

  • avatardragonstout  - re: re: re: re:
    JJJJS wrote:
    Given his avatar is FFG's reprint of Britannia, that's what he's into. Long, epic, war games of yore.

    He designed Britannia.

  • avatarmikecl  - re:
    ubarose wrote:
    Screw the argument with Pete. It's boring.

    Boring or no, there was a thriving hobby board game industry in the 70's and 80's that his post ignored. This stuff didn't just spring into existence. Don't know why you'd exclude wargames because that's what got it all started and I wonder how many games today actually fit your tougher criteria. The field today is full of shorter, lighter hobby games.

    But here you go:

    Magic Realm -1977
    Dune: yes I'm including it. It wasn't some kind of strange, alternate-universe anomoly. It was just another game at the time.
    Dragon Rage - 1982
    Gladiator - 1981
    Wiz War - 1983
    Acquire - 1962
    Civilization - 1980
    Star Trek, the Adventure Game 1985
    Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective 1981
    Nuclear War - 1965 (not a wargame)
    Gammarauders - not a wargame
    Cosmic Encounter - 1977 with the moon expansions which FFG has NOT released just as strategic as any middle of the road game today
    Quirks - 1977 a very novel evolutionary game, that demanded strategy and planning.
    Wizards Quest - 1979

    And that's just off the top of my head. There were many, many more but I'm not a human computer.

    EDIT: By the way Shellie, I'm NOT making Lew's point about depth. I'm refuting Pete's that there were no real hobby games in that era.

    On Lew's argument I wrote in fact:

    "mikecl" wrote:
    I don't think any generation has had a monopoly on depth. Board gamers in any age were and are thinkers by definition. It's what makes victory sweet.

    I think on average, games are better designed today than they were then...although there are exceptions: Dune and Magic Realm still hold their own today. Many of the early games were unnecessarily complex. That's not depth.
  • avatardragonstout

    Since you're mentioning Star Trek: the Adventure Game, don't forget Tales of the Arabian Nights, which, while fantasy, isn't D&D-style fantasy at all

  • avatarmikecl  - re:
    dragonstout wrote:
    Since you're mentioning Star Trek: the Adventure Game, don't forget Tales of the Arabian Nights, which, while fantasy, isn't D&D-style fantasy at all


    Duh...yep! Add it to the list!! It was a happenin time!!! :-) Let's all drop a little acid and take a moment to reflect....

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Mike, you seem to be intentionally disregarding most of my concept. Maybe I am wrong, but I'm looking at what happened in the 90s and what was available back then, and if you are trying to say that it's equivalent, you're simply not being honest.

    I'm not saying there weren't some games that we now call "hobby games", what I'm saying is that back in the day, there weren't very many, and the ones that existed fell pretty much into two big groups: Wargames, and Fantasy/Adventure games. Which I said.

    And most of the people who played wargames, likely STILL ARE, and most of the people who played D&D were the same folks who played the Fantasy/Adventure games.

    The hobby wasn't as it is now, and my view is that the hobby essentially remained relegated to wargamers and RPG/Adventure gamers until the mid 90s when Euros came across. Then the hobby really blossomed.

    I will also posit that perhaps Magic's invention back in the 90's had something to do with it.

    Your "lists" just go to prove what I'm saying. In the 30 years before the 90s there were only a very few companies making these kinds of games (GW, TSR, AH...let
    s say 15 MAYBE, that produced a couple titles a year) where now everyone and their fucking brother kickstarts something and each company puts out 10 games a year.

  • avatarmikecl

    I guess we're just having a miscommunication problem because I'm not intentionally disregarding your concept although I may be misunderstanding it.

    My point is that I became enamoured of board games at the age of six and actually built my very own Monopoly game because we were too poor for my family to get one.

    Growing up there wasn't much until I discovered wargames around the late 60's and then the hobby exploded with all kinds of games. I was a Dungeons and Dragons DM during my teen years and into my 20's and my interests were primarily fantasy and science fiction, but there was lots of stuff out there and it was mainly what you would call Ameritrash today.

    In the late 80's and 90's I got busy with a young family and life and didn't come back to board gaming until 2004 and found Euros saturating the market. My point was don't dismiss the early days. There was a vibrant, board gaming hobbyist community outside of RPG's and war games. And these are some of the games I played back then, that's all.

    In 1977 I was no longer playing war games. BUT I WAS a dedicated board game hobbyist. Don't dismiss my entire existence...for Pete's sake...Pete! :-)

  • avatarSuperflyTNT  - re:
    mikecl wrote:


    Growing up there wasn't much until I discovered wargames around the late 60's and then the hobby exploded with all kinds of games. I was a Dungeons and Dragons DM during my teen years and into my 20's and my interests were primarily fantasy and science fiction, but there was lots of stuff out there and it was mainly what you would call Ameritrash today.


    60's. Wargames.
    70's. Fantasy Adventure and D&D

    Quote:

    In 1977 I was no longer playing war games. BUT I WAS a dedicated board game hobbyist. Don't dismiss my entire existence...for Pete's sake...Pete! :-)


    And you quit playing wargames because you found that you preferred Fantasy & D&D type games.

    All I was ever saying is that there was not nearly the variety or volume back in the beginning, and there were essentially 2 overlapping sects of gamers: Wargamers (Tactics II, AH..) and Fantasizers (D&D/TSR, GW..). The hobby wasn't nearly what it is today.

    So we agree. :)

  • avatarJeff White  - re:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:
    The hobby wasn't as it is now, and my view is that the hobby essentially remained relegated to wargamers and RPG/Adventure gamers until the mid 90s when Euros came across. Then the hobby really blossomed.

    C'mon, man this is flat out wrong. Prior to the mid-90's boardgamers didn't lack for hobby games at all.

    Half of the well regarded games coming out these days are remakes of pre-90's games.

    When I was playing BattleCars and Curse of the Mummy's Tomb it had _nothing_ to do with wargames or D&D. Even then there were games filled with plastic like ThunderRoad and Crossbows and Catapults. There was even gimmicky crap in stores like MouseTrap and Stop Thief.

    Hell, we bought White Dwarf magazine because they provided supplementary material for _boardgames_. Magazines in support of the hobby...don't see that so much anymore. How about boardgames being advertised on TV, magazines, and comics? Boardgames had far wider exposure than now. The hobby was fine.

    This whole 'the hobby didn't thrive pre-90s' thing smacks of someone that wasn't there. It's like saying punk rock didn't really blossom 'til the mid-90's because that's when MTV started playing Rancid and Green Day.

  • avatarlewpuls

    "Kids" are obviously capable of strong focus, as on video games. Some of them, anyway. But they rarely do it without great personal motivation/interest.

    @adamK
    Are you mistaking complexity for depth? Deep games don't need to have lots of rules (chess, go, even Diplomacy). And lots of rules is not a substitute for gameplay depth, though it may increase puzzle depth by increasing the number of things the puzzle-solver must take into account.

    @shellhead
    Sorry, not being familiar with the cliques, I don't know what TOS is. From your description, perhaps people who think they should get an award for participation (common in schools nowadays, I understand).

    I lived in Britain in the late 70s during IRA bombings. People died. You couldn't enter a public building without having your bags checked for bombs. If you left a package unattended it WOULD be reported and cordoned off and checked by police. Yet the British went about business as best they could, rather than let the IRA win. Can you imagine the hysteria and gridlock that would happen in this country in the same circumstances?

    @ubarose
    Quite apart from anecdotal evidence, there are many marketers, employee experts, and others interested in generational differences have noted these trends at great length and detail. That doesn't mean every person that age is similar, of course. You can reject it on the basis that you don't like it, but that doesn't mean a damn thing, does it?

    @InfinityMax
    For most of the past 10 years I've taught college (and occasionally high school) students technical subjects (and also played a lot of games with them). I like people that age and get along with them very well, but see that their general characteristics of behavior and attitude are a problem for them and for the country.

    @Barnes
    Blah, blah, blah. You don't seem to be able to disagree without going overboard.

    We obviously disagree strongly about what "depth" is. Diplomacy is a deep game. Merchant of Venus is not (though I wouldn't call it shallow, either). Depth that you can get at much more easily is an oxymoron.

    "If you think gamers today don't have favorite games or whatever, you are very out of touch." Hard to say, isn't it. I've asked more than a hundred video game fans (taking video game creation classes) what their favorite games are, and that's where much of my data comes from, as well as talking with gamers in the course of club meetings. Your assertion comes from... your ass where? (Yeah, I can speak "Anglo-Saxon", but I'll try to avoid it in the future.)

    Just read a review of CoD:MW3 in PC Gamer: "takes you on a violent, brainless, and well-guided world tour" is the subtitle. "Dumb and fun" is the only subheading. You're telling me this is a deep game? I'm sure it's better in MP when you have intelligent opposition, but anyone who tells me shooters have deep gameplay is clueless. Shooters are the poster child for the opposite.

    With something like 700 new games a year, I have no doubt there are many with lots of depth--heavily outnumbered by ones without. But I'm talking about trends. Anyone can come up with a few exceptions to ANY generalization.

    I sometimes wonder if "depth" is a degraded term, kind of like "hard" in relation to video games. That is, over the years, just as what people call "hard" to play isn't nearly as hard as it used to be in video games (most of the time), perhaps "deep" tends to be rather less deep than it used to mean. Most people think that whatever games they like to play thoughtfully, are deep.

  • avatarmikecl  - re: re:
    Jeff White wrote:
    Even then there were games filled with plastic like ThunderRoad and Crossbows and Catapults.


    Holy smokes I completely forgot about that one. I can still remember setting that thing up in the kitchen and lining up shots to take down enemy fortifications.

    A flicking game with real plastic catapaults and crossbows. Seems juvenile now but sure was fun then.

  • avatarmikecl  - re:
    SuperflyTNT wrote:
    So we agree :)


    Well when you put it like that. Close enough I guess. But there was a lot more going on boardgame wise then than you might think. But yeah the games then were thematic Ameritrash. It's why we're getting all these "remakes" today.

    If your argument is that there were no Euros back then I guess you're right. Cube fondling came much later.

  • avatarandyinkuwait  - re:
    lewpuls wrote:

    I lived in Britain in the late 70s during IRA bombings. People died. You couldn't enter a public building without having your bags checked for bombs. If you left a package unattended it WOULD be reported and cordoned off and checked by police. Yet the British went about business as best they could, rather than let the IRA win. Can you imagine the hysteria and gridlock that would happen in this country in the same circumstances?

    This is utterly tasteless and totally irrelevant. Have you heard about 9/11? I am British and also lived in Birmingham during the bombings in the 70s...big deal. I am not a hero. US folk went about their business after 9/11 just like I did.. it was NOT mass hysteria. Stop trying to put a Churchillian slant on this argument when it is NOT justified.

    Stick to talking about topics you know about, rather than topics that are distorted by your perception of past and present politics.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Lew, it seems almost an intentional thing for you to choose words that mean different things to different people, then when you define them as one thing and people disagree, and bring up valid points, you dismiss their "anecdotes" as irrelevant.

    Guess what? You don't get to say what's valid. I'd TOTALLY argue that a woman with a school-age child knows a fuckload more than you do about what kids of that age are into. It's like your Ravenloft thing "Well, I talked to a guy who once..". Get the fuck out of here.

    And FWIW, an impartial "control" constitutes a section of the population with no apparent similarities. Asking 100 people in a video game design class has no statistical value as applied to the populace becuase your polled "control" are all people more likely to have played more video games and to have differing opinions than the world at large.

    Consider that if you're using your students as polling subjects, the resultant data will be invariably skewed.

    I can tell you, from the perspective of a guy who grew up with Nintendo and Atari when it was the bleeding edge, that you are out of your fucking mind. Everyone I know has a favorite game, including the twentysomethings I know well, and their (and my) kids.

    The thing is that if you're talking to people who are in a DESIGN CLASS for games, they're not your average Joe. So, in fact, your ANECDOTAL evidence from a control group is invalid, using scientific method, because the people are NOT a good control group. They're people devoted to the art of game design, not your average gamer.

    Star Control II
    Dungeon Hack
    Fallout (the original)
    X-Com: Enemy Unknown

    Those are my favorite games. From the thousands I've played, back from the Ultima series, CGA Bad Blood, Dungeons of the Dark Necromancer....all of that, those are my favorites.

    But, remember that people's tastes evolve. That's why it's harder to say what a favorite is: it's because they're ever-changing. When Super Mario was the King Shit, you could poll 100 people and half would say Metroid and half would say Super Mario Bros. Maybe you'd get a lone-flyer who said Shinobi or Dragon's Lair because they hung at the local mini-golf palace.

    Seriously, it's SO FUCKING HARD to want to read what you write because you come off as such an egotistical, arrogant know-it-all who I initially thought wanted answers but in fact you're just asking rhetorical questions so you can get responses simply to tell us all how much smarter that us you are.

    Go back to class, lecture your paying students.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    Overboard or not, you apparently aren't able to discuss games that you've actually played- all I keep hearing is about how you've seen games being played or you talked to someone about them- wasn't it a couple of weeks ago that you posted your "impressions" of Ravenloft without ever even having played it? Do you think anyone cares what you saw in a game that's already been widely covered and parsed for nearly two years by people _who have played the game_?

    I'm not seeing anything that indicates that you actually play games or have any kind of authority on them as a subject of discussion other than designing a couple of marginally popular games in the 1980s and teaching a community college class. Yet you're coming across here like the Grand Old Man of the hobby, imparting your wisdom and- like Pete said- asking nonsense rhetorical questions just to get responses.

    You're like that old guy that hangs out at the public library and irritates the shit out of people by proselytizing about something you read in a magazine. You're the guy that has all of these Big Ideas but nobody that wants to hear them because you're literally talking out of your ass in generalities rather than making concrete arguments. Your video game rhetoric is so laughable and out of touch it makes everything you write here a joke. Don't even suggest that you know a damn thing about a video game because you read a PC Gamer review. Ridiculous.

    Your contempt for young people is contemptuous in itself. Oh woe is me, why are 15 year olds more interested in Halo than Britannia? Seriously, hearing an middle age or old person talk about what the young people are doing these days makes me sick- it devalues and undermines the energy and spirit of youth and youth culture, and that is something that this hobby DESPERATELY needs.

    The thing is Lew, I'm interested in what you have to say, and you've done some compelling designs. You're obviously not an idiot. But I can't help but think that your approach is one of grandstanding egocentricism that overplays your actual authority and knowledge of games. The fact that your comments veer off into the IRA bombings, those crazy kids that are destroying the country with their values, and this charade that you're somehow the dean of Game Design U. steers me to other articles by people- many of them members of this site- with fewer years of experience but more vitality, experience, and understanding of both games and gaming culture.

  • avatarSagrilarus  - re:
    Michael Barnes wrote:
    literally talking out of your ass

    Let's all be thankful he submits via text.

    S.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    Still smells like sausage and canteloupe.

  • avatarJonJacob

    Look, I told you guys during his Ravenloft thing he was trolling. You can't assume that's untrue just because he designed a couple of games. It should be more obvious now, just because your older and out of touch doesn't mean you can't troll.

    I like some of the idea's here. I really do, but it's so clearly obvious he's bitter at how the world is passing him by. Dragon Rage was re-released this year and no one's paying attention. If he's right that people want variety and not depth and that all new games are all variety and not depth then that validates the lack of success his re-print is getting.

    Depth vs. variety is a great idea and there is a lot of great idea's in here but the baggage being carried around with it kind of ruins the article.

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    That's exactly what I'm getting at JJ- Lew is bitter and cranky because his game design heyday was around 1986, and now he's just that guy that tells EVERYBODY from the barista to the bellhop that he did something 30 years ago that no one cares about...like it means anything to most people. Why are kids more interested in Halo than Britannia? Oh, those waning attention spans that MTV fostered and all that bebop music...

    There's a local guy where I live that I'd wager is JUST like him. He's an older guy, completely unkempt, former physician, teaches at community college, fancies himself an academic, and whatnot. He turns up ALL OVER THE PLACE in my town, and he tells EVERYBODY that he was the guy that wrote the autobiographical screenplay for Doc Hollywood, that Michael J. Fox movie. And oh, the anecdotes he'll tell you about that. But what has he done since then? Nothin'. Just telling people what he used to do and proseltyzing because he knows it all about moviemaking...

    This is what poisons his whole discussion...which isn't even really a discussion, it's more a "telling". Like you said, it's this weird airing of despondency and obsolescence in public that's ruining any good ideas that might be swirling around in here.

  • avatarSagrilarus  - re:

    Wow. You've all switched to referring to him in the third person. That's not a positive development.

    S.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT  - re:
    JonJacob wrote:
    Dragon Rage was re-released this year and no one's paying attention. If he's right that people want variety and not depth and that all new games are all variety and not depth then that validates the lack of success his re-print is getting.

    I never thought of Dragon Rage as particularly deep, and it has several ways to play, IIRC. Isn't that sort of the defining argument FOR the game in today's market? Not so much depth but lots of replayability through variety in play?

    I could be wrong, I don't remember DR all that well. It's been a long time since I've seen it.

  • avatarInfinityMax

    The first article I saw from Lewis was the one where he said that gamers go to Jupiter to get more stupider and game players go to Mars to get more candy bars. I didn't like him right then. I am feeling vindicated, because more and more, it appears I am not alone.

    However, I do have to give you props, Lewis, for getting an obscene amount of discussion out of your preening, self-absorbed pap. I can write an article referencing putting hands in meat grinders, and only get four replies. And one of them is mine (replies, not hands).

  • avatarlewpuls  - re: re:
    dragonstout wrote:

    I'd bet that a single draft environment (or Standard environment, for that matter) in Magic gets more plays in the 4 months where it's hammered than Dragon Rage has gotten in its entire lifetime, without anyone "solving" it. New cards are not necessary to make the game deep.

    The relevance of that is? Dragon Rage is not a deep game, nor do I see how it's relevant to Magic:the Gathering, unless you're just being infantile.

    I don't mind if you don't like my games, there are lots of reasons not to. I don't take it personally, the way some people here appear to react when someone doesn't like a game they like. But if you pick an illogical reason, such as to dislike it because I designed it, then you're being a damn fool, right?

  • avatarMichael Barnes

    Bullshit. No one here gives a damn about what games you like or don't like.

    Are you just not used to people calling you out rather than taking your word as gospel because you designed a couple of board games thirty years ago and have a doctorate?

    You have yet to counter any of your critics here, offer reasonable arguments for your claims, or even provide any indication that you have any kind of actual awareness about what's going on in games beyond what you've heard about, read elsewhere, or watched.

    To put it bluntly, I think your comments are fraudulent and without grounding. It's one thing to have opinions and discuss them, it's another to present yourself as some kind I'd know-it-all academic about the subject. And when you talk about Magic with hands-off comments like "as I understand it", it betrays your lack of fundamental experience. Have you really not played one of the most significant hobby games ever published? Or are you just that aloof that you feel you can talk about with somebody and get it?

    Keep doing what you're doing though, it sells papers.

  • avatarubarose

    Can all you dogs back off for a couple of minutes. Mike was helping me figure something out. Something I couldn't quite put my finger on. But I think I have it now. And it is giving me a little laugh.

    Lew is partially correct, but his conclusion regarding short attention spans, yadayada is off.

    It's a simple matter of if you build it they will come. Game publishers and designers produced puzzle solving type games, people who like to solve puzzles liked them and bought them. So more of the same get produced and more people who like to solve puzzles become gamers, until the puzzle solving lovers start out numbering the other types of gamers.

    Individual gamers haven't changed. People in general haven't changed all that much. Puzzle games, more commonly called Euros, have simply attracted more people from the general population into gaming, thus the composition of the gaming community has changed, and therefore, game design had changed.

    Here's the bit that gives me a little laugh. Lew just dissed the shit out of Eurogamers.

    BYW, did we ever reach a decision on whether Gammarauders is a strategy game or not.

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