Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?
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TOPIC: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

15 Apr 2012 16:41 #122948

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

Dogmatix wrote:
wolvendancer wrote:
Please note that it's the people who would have recieved the additional exclusive content that are objecting. As much as asshats want to be cynical about KS, it really is something different.


Yea, I'm not one of those types. I'm of the "if you want my money up front, a bribe is in order" crowd. There *is* going to have to be some sort of reward for putting my money at risk that *isn't* going to go to the risk-averse crowd. Being a fan of the Grateful Dead doesn't mean I sprinkle my whole world in fairy dust. ;)
I'm in the same category. When it comes to board games on KS, I'm only going to back you if:
1) You prove to me it's going to be considerably cheaper for me to back the KS rather than buy it later (IE. anything associated with Game Salute)
2) You bribe me with extras and exclusives that are enough for me to overlook the risk and premium price that comes along with a pre-order

The few exceptions for me are Double-Fine (I backed after reading their KS title without hesitation) and The Order of the Stick, as I have such high respect for the creators that I would back their stuff just to support them (which since I already owned all of the OOTS books, was exactly what I did).
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15 Apr 2012 18:24 #122949

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

cdennett wrote:
Not to derail what was to be another inevitable Kickstarter debate, but why should I care about this? I hadn't even heard of Ogre until this thread, and it looks like an old war game with big ass tanks developed by a Steve Jackson who I've never thought much of (his games or his RPGs). Yet some of you guys are jumping in line like it's the second coming. What am I missing?


Nothing, it's not for you, move around, nothing to see :p
You're not the target demographic, that's all. Ogre is an old school wargame, pretty simple for a wargame but complex by comparison to many current games. Add to this a mix of nostalgia, and super pimped up components, and that's all.
Gee, I want one ^^
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Last Edit: 15 Apr 2012 18:24 by ehanuise.
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15 Apr 2012 20:17 #122951

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

ehanuise wrote:
Nothing, it's not for you, move around, nothing to see :p
You're not the target demographic, that's all. Ogre is an old school wargame, pretty simple for a wargame but complex by comparison to many current games. Add to this a mix of nostalgia, and super pimped up components, and that's all.
Gee, I want one ^^

OK, that's more or less what I thought, thanks for confirming.
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17 Apr 2012 07:46 #123075

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

TheDukester wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
SJ is no great shakes as a businessman. He runs one of the oldest companies in the business yet it's never gone anywhere has it?

Christsakes, speaking directly out of your ass yet again. Dislike him if you feel that increases your gamer cred, but give credit where it is due: the man has kept an independent business running for 32 years and provided a living for dozens and dozens of people during that time. Meanwhile, the hobby landscape is littered with the corpses of countless failed businesses during that time. I think SJ knows a thing or two about keeping the lights on.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that SJ has relied too much upon being a businessman in the last few years and has forgotten how to be creative. The reliance upon Munchkin has certainly paid the bills, but the company as a whole feels stagnant and has not done something truly creative in many years. In a way, I'm glad to see them try this Kickstarter thing, if for no other reason than it's new and different for them ... and doesn't revolve around Munchkin.


Your second paragraph backs my point. Being a good businessman involves more than just surviving. It involves GROWTH. Where is the growth in SJG? If anything the company has regressed and does less now than ever.
There is no comparison between SJG and FFG, Zman, Flying Frog, all the german publishers. SJG should be an industry giant, instead its just a munchkin printer.
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17 Apr 2012 13:37 #123093

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

Mr Skeletor wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
SJ is no great shakes as a businessman. He runs one of the oldest companies in the business yet it's never gone anywhere has it?

Christsakes, speaking directly out of your ass yet again. Dislike him if you feel that increases your gamer cred, but give credit where it is due: the man has kept an independent business running for 32 years and provided a living for dozens and dozens of people during that time. Meanwhile, the hobby landscape is littered with the corpses of countless failed businesses during that time. I think SJ knows a thing or two about keeping the lights on.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that SJ has relied too much upon being a businessman in the last few years and has forgotten how to be creative. The reliance upon Munchkin has certainly paid the bills, but the company as a whole feels stagnant and has not done something truly creative in many years. In a way, I'm glad to see them try this Kickstarter thing, if for no other reason than it's new and different for them ... and doesn't revolve around Munchkin.


Your second paragraph backs my point. Being a good businessman involves more than just surviving. It involves GROWTH. Where is the growth in SJG? If anything the company has regressed and does less now than ever.
There is no comparison between SJG and FFG, Zman, Flying Frog, all the german publishers. SJG should be an industry giant, instead its just a munchkin printer.


SJG gross sales
2003   $2,500,000
2004   $2,800,000
2005   $2,400,000
2006   $2,400,000
2007   $2,880,000
2008   $2,900,000
2009   $3,000,000
2010   $3,500,000
2011   $4,500,000


That's all the years that are available on the SJG website. For the eight years since 2003, six have shown revenue growth, one was flat, and one decreased. The flat and decreased year were partially due to a large warehouse expense (moving the main warehouse from Texas to Nevada). And a million-dollar growth in revenue last year is pretty significant for a business of that size.

I am not sure how you can look at the above numbers and say "SJ is no great shakes as a businessman." They speak for themselves.

But you also seem to be using a conflicting definitions of "growth," so maybe you can spell it out exactly what you mean, and what criteria would make someone a good businessman or not. Mine is pretty simple: turn a profit and don't go out of business.
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17 Apr 2012 14:32 #123099

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

Mr Skeletor wrote:
If anything the company has regressed and does less now than ever.

But the actual numbers show this isn't the case.

Unless you are using "growth" to mean different things. If you mean "lack of diversity," then I totally agree: SJG has practically abandoned anything that doesn't come with a Munchkin or GURPS label. If you mean "lack of creativity," then I totally agree: SJG was once a creative company, but just stamping the Munchkin logo on every solid object you see isn't creative.

But if you mean "business growth," then you're just wrong. SJG, as a business, is doing just fine, especially considering the worldwide economic downturn that began four years ago.
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18 Apr 2012 07:16 #123171

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

Well color me surprised. Where are his additianl year on year sales coming from?
And if he is making all this money why is he still crying poor about being able to take a risk on Ogre?
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18 Apr 2012 13:51 #123204

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

If he wanted to do an edition of Ogre similar to the one that he just released a few months back for Awful Green Things from Outer Space, then I'm sure he could. And who's to say one won't come down the pipe later on? He's releasing the "Designer's Edition" of Ogre. Without KS I'm sure we could have just seen the basic game without the stretch goals. The stretch goals are what he wanted the game to be but found it too risky without having a better idea of where demand stood - Which he did with KS.
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18 Apr 2012 15:45 #123224

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

That little Skeletor/Duke flareup underscores why I want Steve Jackson to go the fuck away.

In a down economy with what amounts to one truly shitty product line you manage to grow almost 25% and then you have the BALLS to ask me to pre-fund your damned pet project?

Piss off. Anyone who preordered (my dear friend Bistro included) is supporting the notion that companies take zero risk and get all the rewards while companies that take risks (ZMan, anyone) have a harder time of it and are at greater risk for less reward.

It's a moneygrab at its finest. You, the people take the risk, We the publisher get the reward.
Last Edit: 18 Apr 2012 15:47 by SuperflyTNT.
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18 Apr 2012 16:02 #123226

Re: Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

Can someone please explain to me then the difference between KS and a P500 project? Except that one is hated and the other accepted?
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