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trasy-shorts-xI don’t seem to do much of these any more. I kind of got out of the habit when I had a small baby in the house and there really was no time to watch TV or read books but now that the small baby has grown into a slightly larger baby and seems to have discovered some of the merits of actually sleeping some of the time. Also I’m not sure how much people like me doing short reviews of older material that most people are familiar with. But now I have a bit more space I’ve actually built up a backlog of stuff to cover so let’s make a start: and if you don’t find my coverage of old books and films useful or interesting be sure to tell me so that I can save us all some time and not bother to go over what’s left after we’re done here. The top of my list - which is what I was reading and watching just after the last trashy old shorts bit that I published - are the first two parts of Frank Herbert’s sci-fi epic Dune and Dune Messiah. I’d read them before of course, and I wanted to re-read them because I was in the mood for some epic science fiction. And to my surprise I was a little disappointed. It’s probably heresy around here to suggest that there’s something wrong with this classic series but whilst it was an undeniably gripping read, on this particular pass I just found bits of it really irksome. In particular Paul’s omniscience really seemed to grate. I know it’s a key part of the plot but not only does having an all-powerful hero make the book a bit predictable but it also smacks of kind of immature teenage wish-fulfillment. It also struck me that large parts of the setting, which I’d hitherto regarded as fairly imaginative and unique, were actually common sci-fi and mythological tropes being repeated such as the centrality of prophecy and a past “machine rebellion” leading to a limitation of current technology. In fairness Dune remains the best marriage of science-fiction and politics that I’ve read, and it has some remarkable foresighted themes about environmentalism and middle-eastern politics, but in too many places I found the irritation factor outweighed the cleverness. I’ve probably just read it too many times: it’s still a book I’d recommend to a neophyte, but I’m not sure it has the capacity for repeat enjoyment that I once thought it had.

We have another book up next and it’s a slightly surprising one that I’d avoided partly because it sounded like a really soppy story and partly because my partner bought it and didn’t like it. But I eventually ran out of everything else in the house to read and took the plunge. The book in question is The Time Traveller’s Wife by Audrey Niffenegger which is certainly a love story, but a love story with a neat twist: one of the protagonists frequently finds himself displaced in time to points in his own past or future which leads to a bizarre upside-down plot in which the love of his life has met him and fallen in love with his older self before his younger self has actually met her. Sounds bizarre? It is, but don’t worry, because the necessarily complex story is handled with rare skill, not only making perfect sense from start to finish but exploring every possible aspect this odd affliction has on the protagonist and his family along the way. The completeness with which it explores every human and narrative consequence of time travel totally appeals to the nerd in me and left me far more open to the softer, more emotional side of the story which is also constructed extremely well and which, in spite of my best efforts, totally suckered me in. I was really choked up by the end, and I’m normally pretty good at laughing off the sort of blunt emotional manipulation that’s the stock-in-trade of literary love stories. The only thing I didn’t like about the book was that the male lead - a handsome, athletic librarian for fuck’s sake - was quite obviously a sexual fantasy construction of masculinity designed to appeal to a certain kind of well-read woman. But other than that it’s highly recommended as the ultimate love story for geeks.

The next book was one I’d never heard of but which was given to me as a gift based on a seemingly endless stream of five-star reviews on Amazon. Apparently it’s a science fiction classic but in spite of decades on the nerd circuit it had totally passed me by, the apocalyptic fable A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter Miller. The plot is difficult to summarize: it essentially tells the tale of how the attempts of the titular Leibowitz (long dead by the start of the story) to preserve some knowledge at the outbreak of a nuclear catastrophe profoundly influences the re-development of civilization in the long ages following the apocalypse. It was published in 1960 and the writing style feels even older. As a modern reader I found it a little dry and impenetrable at times, and the occasional use of untranslated Latin and the way the plot stop-starts between different ages and sets of characters as it seeks to cover the passing of many centuries doesn’t help either. But that’s counterpointed by a wry sense of humour that’s present throughout and ultimately it’s a rewarding, fulfilling read that leaves you with a lot to think about, filled as it is with themes that connect to important ideas such as repetition across history, the power of church versus state, the morality of euthanasia, the importance of knowledge and civilization in the face of war and barbarism and the potentially vast implications that can result from apparently insignificant choices and encounters. It’s always a great pleasure to encounter a book that can cover big, juicy themes whilst remaining exciting and readable, I just wish it had been a tiny little bit more readable.

Switching attention from books to TV now I finally managed to catch the sequel to zombie-reinvention flick 28 days later, the aptly and unsurprisingly named 28 weeks later in which survivors from the UK are repatriated in their home land now that all the infected have died from starvation. I don’t think it’s going to be a major spoiler to announce that the zombies manage to make a re-appearance and cause havoc. I didn’t know much about this film and I didn’t expect much from it, given the poor record of sequels over the years but I was surprised and pleased that it doesn’t fall into any of the obvious traps like re-doing the spooky empty London scene from the original or choosing a blindingly obvious route to bring back the ghouls. In fact it’s a pretty different film entirely, much more action oriented, a bit like the comparison between Alien and Aliens and on the whole I think it’s a good choice. It’s exciting to watch and features some stunning and truly horrific set pieces, such as a wife being trapped in a room with her much-loved and now newly-infected husband, which I found to be extremely disturbing both emotionally and visually, and that’s kind of a good thing in a horror film. It’s also noticeably darker in tone than the original which carried a spark of human decency and an ultimate possibility of hope throughout. Neither is present here and although such a bleak tone is a staple of a lot of zombie horror I think the story as a whole is weaker for it because it also lacks the undercurrent of tongue-in-cheek humour that’s so common in z-films and the whole is a bit too brutal without being sufficiently thought provoking. But overall an excellent effort, and well worth watching.

For my final paragraph it’s another gift that an old friend sent me out of the blue, a DVD set of a 70’s TV series called Kolchak: he Night Stalker that we both recalled watching as teenagers. It’s rarely, if ever, on TV nowadays, at least not here in the UK and it was a fun trip down memory lane. The series follows the adventures of a journalist who makes a speciality of investigating and eliminating a number of supernatural and extra-terrestrial threats, a different one each episode. Remind you of anything? The X-Files perhaps or Supernatural? Well of course this series pre-dates both by decades and as, in fact, been acknowledged by X-files creator Chris Carter as a major inspiration behind his invention. And if you can get past the inevitable hokey 70’s style, the dated props and special effects and the poor quality of the video the first episodes of this are actually really good. It’s not just nostalgia talking either. The acting from the lead is really pretty good, walking that fine line between camp and seriousness that’s necessary for any kind of fantasy or sci-fi show and the writers make excellent use of a variety of obscure myths and legends alongside the obvious candidates to keep the audience guessing. The episode Firefall about the ghost of an arsonist assuming the identity and trying to take over the body of an innocent man was particularly effective, with the phantom popping up and grinning a horrible hungry grin at his victim all the time. It tailed off toward the end of the series, becoming increasingly silly as the writers either began to run out of ideas or out of steam with the effort of keeping it semi-serious but there’s plenty of material that’s worth a look. The series itself resulted from two previous films, The Night Stalker and The Night Strangler which I won’t comment on as I’ve not seen them in years, but I remember them being entertaining. And the series was actually remade as the plain old Night Stalker in 2005 which I won’t comment on because I watched two episodes of that and thought they were bloody awful.

And that pretty much covers my media exposure for a year of my life up to Februrary of this year. I have about the same number of items to cover for the past few months, and there’ll be more coming at the same rate. So until next time - assuming you want there to be a next time - that’s enough trashy shorts for now.

 

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Comments (61)
  • avatarDr. Mabuse

    Good stuff Matt.

    I'm not surprised you'd take a swing at Dune since you disliked the game so much (an Emperor not spending any spice on bribes and info ..really?) :P

    It's interesting as I just finished reading Dune Messiah a couple of weeks ago and you articulated my huge annoyance with that book in particular. The large swathes of meta-physical jibber-jabber became tiresome and eventually I lost interest in the storyline. I also though there was very little in terms of character development on the whole with the exception of Hayt.

    Bleh. I'm done reading this series. I still prefer the first book.

  • avatarjeb

    DUNE is great. Looooove it. Most science fiction is utter shit(e), and DUNE is not. Thus it stands above. A great achievement of imagination--he crafts a universe that feels lived in, without the slogging details. Why don't they have computers? Oh, the "Butlerian Jihad"--whatever the hell that is. Why not just blast everybody with lasers? Oh, "Holtzmann shields." Wait--who's Holtzmann? It's really well done!

    DUNE MESSIAH--not so much. CHILDREN OF DUNE? Getting better. GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE? Pretty badass. HERETICS OF DUNE? Not so much. CHAPTERHOUSE:DUNE? The fuck?

    Can't win 'em all! Try THE WHITE PLAGUE. You might like that one Matt.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    I'm not surprised you'd take a swing at Dune since you disliked the game so much

    I wouldn't say I disliked it. It's just that right away I recognised it was a game I could play for a hundred years and still never, ever be any good at. For the sorts of reasons that you clearly articulate :)

    Quote:
    Most science fiction is utter shit(e), and DUNE is not.

    I still rate Dune, I just don't think it stands up to repeat readings. Some books don't. The first time I read His Dark Materials it totally blew me away: second time through I found it really quite dull. I guess it has a lot to do with how much the power of the story comes from the surprises of an unknown plot.

    In my experience most science fiction is certainly not utter shit. But I don't read a lot of it and I tend to stick to well-recommended classics, so perhaps it's just a fortunate lack of exposure.

  • avatarwaddball

    Canticle is a great book, though I struggle with the religious undertones (and sometimes overtones). I have to deliberately substitute morality in there, but it's still awkward to parse. Still, very worthwhile, "thinky" book.

    No more slagging on Dune, though! ALL* DUNE BOOKS ARE GREAT AND I WILL HEAR NO HERETICAL CONTRARY VIEWS!

    * Of course, not the Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson ones. Those are among the worst books I've ever read. Truly.

  • avatarjeb

    I try to stick to the classics and still end up mired in drivel. SF/Fantasy imprints let everybody write four books, five books, six books. Few are the stories that need this much room.

    A GAME OF THRONES -- Same old same old fantasy drivel. Everyone talks this up like he's upending fantasy fiction, but where is that? The incest thing? That's it? The gore? Give me a break.

    THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS -- Mumbo jumbo in the extreme. Impenetrable--but I think that's the point. Pun intended, by the way.

    PERDIDO STREET STATION -- Went nowhere for me. Got bogged down on the wrong characters and went after a path I thought funny (crisis mathematics) rather than deep.

    ENDER'S GAME -- Again, I fail to see the appeal. Works better as an elevator pitch than an actual work of literature.

    THE TYRANNIES OF THE NIGHT -- THE BLACK COMPANY was out so I read this to get a feel for Glen Cook. Complete shit.

    I am trying to be contrarian, I just think most SF/Fantasy is actually written poorly. It's like they get a free pass because they are writing about something interesting.

    I read and recommend:
    DUNE
    THE ROAD
    SNOW CRASH
    THE YIDDISH POLICEMAN'S UNION
    1984
    BRAVE NEW WORLD
    SLAUGHTERHOUSE FIVE
    THE STARS MY DESTINATION
    THE DIAMOND AGE
    THE SHADOW OF THE TORTURER

  • avatarSka_baron

    Brave New World? Really? Reread that one last year and recalled why I needed to reread 1984 - which I did and enjoyed much more.

  • avatarSuperflyTNT

    Always a good read, Matt.

    First, regarding Dune, it's not omniscience as it were. It took me years to boil this down, but he's essentially a super-mentat that can see all possible futures and determine the most likely. Maybe it's splitting hairs, but it totally changed my outlook on prescience at a young age. I used to think that all psychics were hucksters, but now I think that some have such a large subconscious computing ability that they can "see" the future.

    A good example was the recent Italian volcanic eruption - in 1915 a seizmologist were absolutely predictable due to the relation of gravity on the tectonic plates and the sun. Well, almost 100 years later, he fucking nailed it, almost to the day. He said earthquake, but it was a volcano. So omniscience or at least prescience is scientific, not "mystical", and therefore I can put a little weight behind it.

    Prediction:
    http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2011/05/10/attenzione-ai-presagi- thousands-flee-rome-over-mounting-quake-fears/

    Result:
    http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2011/05/12/italys-mount-etna-erupts- again/

    I love the novels specifically because of his ability to see things in the future, but through the lens of a "distraught-teen-royalty".

    Regarding the 28-x series, I wholeheartedly concur. I rate these as some of the best zombie flicks because of the nature of the "Rage virus" which doesn't make shamblers, but just Loter-izes them. A bit like "The Crazies" but far more aggro.

    I'm going to check out "A Canticle for Leibowitz" for sure. Sounds like it's an interesting story, and I don't mind "hard to read" or Latin...I have some Latin indellibly etched into my bicep, so I can't gripe.

    Thanks as always!

  • avatarFury

    ** minor spoiler alert **

    There was one thing that really bugged me in 28 Weeks later. Apparently the English and civilization in general have learned how to cope with the virus. One key fact was the virus spread extrememly fast from one host to the next. So what do they do when a London outbreak occurs? They herd everyone together into extrememly tight quarters! Why!?!? They were doing the exact opposite before. The dispersal of people method was working just fine. Send out extermination squads to deal with reported outbreaks.

    Other than that it was better than most zombie movies.

  • JJJJS  - re:
    jeb wrote:
    THE TYRANNIES OF THE NIGHT -- THE BLACK COMPANY was out so I read this to get a feel for Glen Cook. Complete shit.


    I don't know what you mean by 'out', but I still suggest you try The Black Company. It's not very fair to judge one book by reading another--even if it's by the same author. No artist is consistently good. And some may only hit it out of the park once.

    I totally agree with your point about 'written poorly'. There have been very few great writers in history--IMO like, maybe, 10 or so. And none of them write fantasy or science fiction. So yes, I give a free pass in writing quality to anyone who can tell me an interesting tale, no matter the genre. Being interesting, in itself, is a talent.

    MattDP wrote:
    It also struck me that large parts of the setting, which I’d hitherto regarded as fairly imaginative and unique, were actually common sci-fi and mythological tropes being repeated such as the centrality of prophecy and a past “machine rebellion” leading to a limitation of current technology.


    I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to Science Fiction, but I have to ask: While yes, those themes are common now, was it common when Herbert wrote it?

  • avatarJonJacob

    Despite what Ska Baron says I think Brave New World is worth the read and for the record I think it's a more accurate prediction of where we are as a culture then 1984 is. I don't think that either are great examples of prose in particular but they are interesting works of speculative fiction. BNW has the youth sex, the drugs, the "savages" being protected, and the people who actually want to be repressed which srtikes me as very accurate. 1984 has newspeak. If your going to read BNW it's worth it to check out the compaion novel Island as well.

  • avatarwaddball  - re:
    jeb wrote:
    A GAME OF THRONES -- Same old same old fantasy drivel. Everyone talks this up like he's upending fantasy fiction, but where is that? The incest thing? That's it? The gore? Give me a break.


    It's explicitly, deliberately not the same old fantasy drivel. I'm still not sold that he has an overarching vision that will tie this all together, and I think the plot has meandered way too much (he, like so many authors, needs a good editor; his writing is a victim of his success).

    But the good stuff is good. The characters are distinctly drawn, with unique and credible voices (something I think all writers struggle with, but esp. fantasy authors). There's little of the "cool for cool's sake", teen wish fulfillment crap; the world feels old and authentic, with consistent internal logic. I could go on, but I'm droning.

    Anyway, I don't thing GRRM gets everything right, but it's head and shoulders above the genre. Very low bar, sure (fantasy is rife with spectacularly bad writing, even among the "big" names), but Martin is a good writer by any standard.

    Quote:
    THE LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS -- Mumbo jumbo in the extreme. Impenetrable--but I think that's the point. Pun intended, by the way.


    Got me; I chuckled. I do like LeGuin (esp. Earthsea, just great juvenile fiction), though all the SF stuff seems really dated now.

  • avatarjhuntin1

    I had to read A Canticle for Leibowitz in high school for an academic competition and I only remember 3 things about it. 1) It's divided into 3 parts. 2) The first part reads like medieval Europe with a monk taking his masterwork (rescribing the work of Leibowitz) to the "pope" and getting mugged on the way back. 3) Not making any sense of the last 2 parts. I had no idea it was a famous sci-fi work at the time, and if I knew all sci-fi work was like that I wouldn't pick up another one again.

  • avatarjeb  - re: re:
    waddball wrote:
    jeb wrote:
    A GAME OF THRONES -- Same old same old fantasy drivel. Everyone talks this up like he's upending fantasy fiction, but where is that? The incest thing? That's it? The gore? Give me a break.

    It's explicitly, deliberately not the same old fantasy drivel.

    Let's expand on this, because I don't see it. Mind you, I have only read the first 700 page book, maybe the latter 2800 pages brings it home.

    I read the book and I saw the tropes of:
    Honorable man, distant from power, must kowtow to corrupt will of ruling authority.

    The secret band of rebels hides in the shadows, waiting to strike for justice.

    The princess who excels at swordplay! How handy when corruption fells her family and she goes into hiding!

    Is this all smoke and mirrors to set off the original concept of the reluctant messiah (who becomes the unreluctant messiah? Which could go places...in some sequel I imagine because it's not in this book.)

    I don't see how this is super different from the vast majority of fantasy works. Once you take feudal Europe as the basis for your mythology, you are going to lose points for originality.

  • avatarJonJacob  - re: re: re:
    jeb wrote:
    Let's expand on this, because I don't see it. Mind you, I have only read the first 700 page book, maybe the latter 2800 pages brings it home.

    I read the book and I saw the tropes of:
    Honorable man, distant from power, must kowtow to corrupt will of ruling authority.

    The secret band of rebels hides in the shadows, waiting to strike for justice.

    The princess who excels at swordplay! How handy when corruption fells her family and she goes into hiding!

    Is this all smoke and mirrors to set off the original concept of the reluctant messiah (who becomes the unreluctant messiah? Which could go places...in some sequel I imagine because it's not in this book.)

    I don't see how this is super different from the vast majority of fantasy works. Once you take feudal Europe as the basis for your mythology, you are going to lose points for originality.

    I haven't finished the first book yet (kind of just started) so I don't want to read or say too much but I will say this much. Classic character archtypes don't make a bad story, bad writing does that. Many of the greatest stories ever told are filled with pretty typical characters. Hell, even Finnegans wake isn't that complex in coles note form. The actual characters are pretty standard but it's the observations in-between and the quality of writing that brings it above that. No book or story in general should be marked down for playing with common types or even stereotypes... it's what they do with those types over time, how they present them, how it's written, the observations and poetry of the language, or even how much fun or how surprising the story is. I'm not saying this series is good or bad, it seems ok to me so far but I'll need to do more reading before I have a better handle on it's overall quality.

  • avatarMattDP

    On my smartphone so staying brief.

    Brave New World is one of the ten best books ever written. Better than 1984 and more prophetic. We could talk a lot about BNW.

    Most of you know I think GRRM is overrated. A good writer, certainly but distinct? No. He's just writing low fantasy and that's so rare these days we've forgotten what it looks like. But it's not new, and it's been done better.

  • avatarSka_baron

    Not saying BNW isnt great literature or well written - just boring to me on rereading it. Lots of interesting ideas - especially for the time, but 1984 had some tension on reread for me. Wonder how Animal Farm would hold up.

  • Mr Skeletor

    I read the first 2 acts of dune and never finished it. Where the fuck was the "politics"? It had all the political complexity of the original star wars. The prose was drier than the desert setting and the characters - not one interesting or engaging one in the whole book! I like reading about people who have motivations and feelings as opposed to plot devices.
    Not much of a plot either, basically a Hollywood remake of the Moses story. Considering how little dune worked it's magic on me I'd hate to read the supposed weaker stories that appeared later.

  • avatarwaddball  - re: re: re:
    jeb wrote:
    Honorable man, distant from power, must kowtow to corrupt will of ruling authority.


    And does he? How does it work out? I don't disagree that Ned comes off a bit cookie-cutter, but the plot threads around him don't. Plus, I think you've pulled one example out of a host of counters that are inconvenient for your argument.

    Quote:
    The secret band of rebels hides in the shadows, waiting to strike for justice.


    I'm a little confused on this. Do you mean the Army of the North? If so, yet again, how does it work out plot-wise? Not the way any normal fantasy novel would have it. Nor, I think, have you characterized them correctly. It's a time of conflicting claims on the throne, not a single powerful government/entity/overlord/whatever that rebels are trying to overthrow. But maybe I'm missing your referent.

    Quote:
    The princess who excels at swordplay! How handy when corruption fells her family and she goes into hiding!


    Well, there's foresight and there's good luck, and again, does she end up in the situation you expect, given that setup? Not at all. I'd say that's characteristic of the novel: it feels familiar with many tropes that you despise (though I'm unsure what you'd replace them with, and I see a bunch in your recommended reading list), and yet Martin doesn't do what you expect with them. But again, I think you're pulling out some obvious examples but ignoring the many counter-examples.

    Quote:
    Is this all smoke and mirrors to set off the original concept of the reluctant messiah (who becomes the unreluctant messiah? Which could go places...in some sequel I imagine because it's not in this book.)


    Right, it's not in this book. I've read them all, and I'm not at all certain how it's going to end up. I'm not actually fond of that in GoT; I wish each book was more self-contained (for instance, the way the first Thomas Covenant trilogy works). As is, it's essentially one huge novel broken up rather arbitrarily, and I don't see that changing.

    I'm probably not a great Martin apologist. I'm critical about quite a number of things. And I don't think this is "high literature". It's written primarily to entertain, not to reshape the world or whatever.

  • JJJJS

    My problem with Martin is I don't like any of the characters. Arya is the closest, but it's more out of sympathy for the little girl who wants to do the right thing. Perhaps John, but that again is out of sympathy because his fate is out of his hands. Everyone else is a heel. Even good ol' Ned got boring with his unending devotion to the old ways and honor and whatnot. Before I gave up I found myself rooting for everyone's death so it all could end. I read the first book and got a little way into the second book before deciding it wasn't for me.

  • avatarShellhead

    Martin writes better dialogue than most. His main characters are very well-developed, including characters that would be cardboard villains in the hands of other writers. And Martin has the ambition to depict a world at war, from a wide range of perspectives. Most fantasy writers are content to depict simple and boring conflicts of good versus evil. Martin reminds us of the complexity of real people. No matter what side you are on, you will be working with some good people and some real bastards.

  • avatarjeb

    I'm not arguing for high literature--I have Neal Stephenson on my list, after all. I am arguing that GRRM gets a ton of credit for overthrowing fantasy fiction, but I'll be damned if I can see where that happens. I don't want to make you type a novel in response--it's not your fault you like GRRM--obviously, I am the odd man out. But what are the other threads you mention?

    I think you hit on another gripe of mine--and you note it as well. The book is not self-contained. It's part one of a ~saga~. I might like to know what happens with the Night's Watch, where does that end up? I was blinded by the praise of the novel and was disappointed. If this is what passes for refreshing, I should be glad I'm not reading others.

    ----TOTALLY DIFFERENT TOPIC----
    Something I really liked about DUNE, and something I liked about ANATHEM (which I didn't actually like overall as you may recall here), was the idea of Long Time. Humans are equipped to deal with things over the course of about 30 years. Basically, enough time to make babies and make sure your babies have viable offspring. That's the biological essence of existence. Actions and consequences on longer time frames are not natural and require real work to maintain. Other than royal families and religions, the only plans executed on so grand a scale might be corporations, and only a few of those have been around for even ~100 years. The Bene Gesserit breeding program across the millenia is a huge idea. This is explored further in GOD EMPEROR which features a single entity that lives across that kind of time scale and has the power to change the galaxy. That's some heady stuff and I really enjoyed it.

  • avatarwaddball

    @JJJJS: Yes, it's plot-driven more than character-driven, and I can see how that could grate.

    What I like the most, I guess, is that I genuinely don't know what's going to happen. It's not "comfortable". It's not yet another formulaic Quest epic, with stupid villains and the usual cast of unlikely heroes (sorry, I really just do not see this, Jeb).

    I appreciate the dialog and the POV writing, where "the truth" is ambiguous and/or relative. Maybe I'm shallow, but that feels unusual and much more honest than the usual fare. But mostly, I get a real sense of dread and anticipation turning each page. Martin plays for keeps with his characters and plot, and for me, anyway, it's like nothing else I've read in this genre.

  • avatarjeb

    Now I get it. It's not that is high-falutin' or amazing literature--it's that it's not patently bad, as most fantasy fiction is. It trucks in ambiguity, both moral and as storytelling device. I don't read a lot of SF/Fantasy--I want to hit the highlights--that is very possibly clouding my view of GRRM. If I came from a head full of Zelazny or Anderson or Turtledove I might see the guy as a breath of fresh air. This makes sense.

  • Mr Skeletor

    Could not disagree more - GoT is character driven, motivations drive the plot. GoT lives and dies on it's characters, if you don't get into them you won't enjoy the series. If you enjoy the characters you will love it. That's always the reason behind people liking or loathing the series; I've never encountered anyone who loved the characters but hated the books for some other reason.

    Who the fuck is the sword wielding princess btw?!? I don't recall a secret band of rebels in the first book either.

  • avatarjeb

    Eddard has two girls--the princessy one and the tom boy who gets a sword, &c.

    The rebel band is the Night's Watch, sneaking Princess Swordfighter out of town after the REDACTED REDACTED.

  • JJJJS  - re:
    Mr Skeletor wrote:
    Who the fuck is the sword wielding princess btw?!? I don't recall a secret band of rebels in the first book either.


    Arya.

    As for the secret band of rebels, I don't know.

  • Mr Skeletor

    Ok, so the sword wielding princess isn't a princess and doesn't get into any sword fights in 4 books...
    The nights watch is a secret rebel band?!? Thats like saying cradle of filth is classical music.

  • avatarjeb

    So your beef with my first comment is that she's a duchess or something? Lord-ette? That's what you've got? I win this one.

  • Mr Skeletor

    No my 'beef' was I had no idea who you were talking about, as there are no sword weilding princesses in the series. But if it's so important to you to prove it's cleche and arya is just another fantasy troope, win away.

  • JJJJS

    The one thing I like about GoT is it inspired a killer song by The Sword. To Take the Black.

  • avatarShellhead

    Skeletor, that's a great point. There is a lot of plot in Game of Thrones, but it is very heavily driven by the motivations of the characters. Fortunately, most of the main characters are interesting and realistically complex.

  • avatarBrewmiester

    It took me about 5 starts at reading Dune before I could get past the first 50 pages. I eventually finished it and the next two but never read any of the other ones. I liked them well enough but have no desire at this point to reread them. A game of Dune, that I would be interested in.

    I loved Kolchak when it was originally aired. I nearly died of fright walking home in the dark from my friends house after the zombie episode. I think the Chiller channel plays them occasionally.

  • avatarJeff White
    Quote:
    The one thing I like about GoT is it inspired a killer song by The Sword. To Take the Black.

    Never read the series, but this I agree with. Great Song. I also dig the Conan songs on Gods of the Earth.

  • tube_ee  - On Paul's omniscience...

    It does get annoying, especially in Dune Messiah, (the weakest of the series, IMHO.)

    In Children of Dune, and especially in God Emperor, Herbert starts deeply exploring what absolute prediction of the future would entail. Basically, Paul's visions lock the future into his vision. Which would have been great, except that his vision was what he was always trying to avoid.

    It takes his death, and his son's multi-thousand-year life, to break humanity out of Paul's vision, which would have lead to the extinction of the human race.

    It ends up taking both perfect prescience and a first-person knowledge of all of human history to chart a safe course for the future of humanity. Paul lacked the second piece. Leto II has both, and manages to live long enough to implement his unique knowledge.

    --Shannon

  • avatarwaddball  - re:
    Mr Skeletor wrote:
    Could not disagree more - GoT is character driven, motivations drive the plot. GoT lives and dies on it's characters, if you don't get into them you won't enjoy the series.


    Funny, I guess I agree with your premise, but I don't "get into" many of the characters. They serve their part in the tapestry, providing unique viewpoints and details, but the real focus, as I see it, is the overarching "critical moment in history".

    Maybe this is yet another way this series avoids cliches. There is strong characterization, but not much in the way of truly sympathetic characters (at least, as I understand it, but I'm no lit critic).

  • JJJJS  - re: re:
    waddball wrote:
    ...but the real focus, as I see it, is the overarching "critical moment in history".


    And that's where I disagree. To me it appears GRRM is writing these books more like a soap opera. There is no overarching story. It's all conflict and resolution based on character motivation. And just like soap operas, as long as people like the characters, or at least enjoy taking a voyeuristic peek into the characters' lives, it doesn't matter to them how it ends or if it ends.

  • avatarjeb  - re: On Paul's omniscience...
    tube_ee wrote:
    In Children of Dune, and especially in God Emperor, Herbert starts deeply exploring what absolute prediction of the future would entail. Basically, Paul's visions lock the future into his vision. Which would have been great, except that his vision was what he was always trying to avoid.

    It takes his death, and his son's multi-thousand-year life, to break humanity out of Paul's vision, which would have lead to the extinction of the human race.

    It ends up taking both perfect prescience and a first-person knowledge of all of human history to chart a safe course for the future of humanity. Paul lacked the second piece. Leto II has both, and manages to live long enough to implement his unique knowledge.

    Great post, Shannon. This is what I was getting after, and it makes slogging through DUNE MESSIAH and CHILDREN OF DUNE worth it. I really like the ideas explored in GOD EMPEROR (especially) and HERETICS (less so). That depicts a world fundamentally different from ours, with different motivations than those I am familiar with.

    For you folks that like DUNE and think Brian is fucking his father's corpse, I highly recommend tracking down THE DUNE ENCYCLOPEDIA. It was canonical at the time--Frank liked it at least. And it's a far more interesting document than the goddamn mechs-with-brains shit his son pooped out. It's a rare item, but you can likely track it down via inter-library loan--that's how I've read it twice in these last 20 years.

  • avatarShellhead

    "There is no overarching story."

    What? Seriously?

    I will give you a hint... "A Game of Thrones." Does that suggest any possible overarching story to you?

    Okay, I will be more explicit. Have you noticed any changes in leadership in Westeros since the beginning of the series? Any, um, disputes involving who is or should be king?
    That is the overarching story, though there may be an even larger story involving "Fire and Ice." I would suspect that has to do with dragons and Others and the overall increasing amount of magic in that world.

  • avatarMattLoter

    I'm not going to wade into the GoT arguement, (I got papers to write!) but I will provoke some controversy by saying I really enjoyed the Dune prequals, especially the Machine Crusades trilogy. They are fun pulpy sci-fi, and fuck all you fancy bastards who are too good to just cut loose and have a good time reading something stupid and action filled set in a fun universe. Stick to reading James Joyce and pretending like you actually enjoy that boring pretentious bullshit, I'll be playing Han Solo and Princess Leia with my wife and having fun at life.

  • JJJJS  - re:
    Shellhead wrote:
    "There is no overarching story."

    What? Seriously?

    I will give you a hint... "A Game of Thrones." Does that suggest any possible overarching story to you?

    Okay, I will be more explicit. Have you noticed any changes in leadership in Westeros since the beginning of the series? Any, um, disputes involving who is or should be king?
    That is the overarching story, though there may be an even larger story involving "Fire and Ice." I would suspect that has to do with dragons and Others and the overall increasing amount of magic in that world.


    I only read the first book and about 50 pages into the second. But when I think overarching story, I think like LOTR, where there is an ultimate goal. Once that goal is reached, no matter what happens along the way, the story is over. From what little I read of GoT (though it was hundreds of pages) it doesn't seem like there's such a component to Game of Thrones. There is no ultimate goal, just everyone wanting to be king. For that reason, it seemed more like a soap opera or serial comic book.

  • avatarwaddball  - re:
    MattLoter wrote:
    I really enjoyed the Dune prequals....


    Wait a minute, are you that guy that likes The Phantom Menace best of all the Star Wars movies, too? :P

  • avatarMattLoter

    Hey, just cause I said I enjoyed them doesn't mean I think they even come close to the true greatness of original Dune.

    Phantom Menace I haven't seen since the first viewing in theaters. This summer I'm actually planning to watch all the prequals without all the baggage and see if I can enjoy them on their own merits. I feel like they are better than I remember them being when not being asked to live up to my outrageous expectations.

  • avatarMattDP
    Quote:
    And just like soap operas, as long as people like the characters, or at least enjoy taking a voyeuristic peek into the characters' lives, it doesn't matter to them how it ends or if it ends.

    Bang-on observation. Totally captures why I felt I couldn't be bothered getting suckered in to the whole series once I'd finished the first book.

  • Mr Skeletor

    I call bullshit on the 'no overall story' claim.
    Because there is no 'big bad' or lame ass 'quest' that means there is no overall story?!? What?
    So Beowulf and King Arthur don't have a story either?

    I also don't buy the claim that Martin is making it up as he goes along (ala TV shows like Lost and BSG.) If that were the case we should be seeing unresolved/dropped plot threads all over the place by book four. Instead Book 3 and 4 heavily reference events from the first book, clearly playing off much of what is seeded in there. Unresolved stuff (like Jon's mother) quite clearly hasn't been dropped but will pay off later. I can't think of any side plots that have just been dropped and go nowhere, nor any tieins that weren't brilliantly done (sometimes the journey to get there is clumsy, but that's a naritive issue. All the plot beats have been hit brilliantly.)

    Liking or not liking the series is fair enough and down to poor taste. But claims like those above are nonsense unless you have read everything to date.


    "Maybe this is yet another way this series avoids cliches. There is strong characterization, but not much in the way of truly sympathetic characters (at least, as I understand it, but I'm no lit critic)."

    I find almost all of the characters sympathetic, much more so than Dune (Paul was the coldest character I have ever read.) Glad you like the series, but if you aren't into the characters I'm not sure what the appeal to you is.

  • avatarJonJacob  - re:
    MattLoter wrote:
    Stick to reading James Joyce and pretending like you actually enjoy that boring pretentious bullshit, I'll be playing Han Solo and Princess Leia with my wife and having fun at life.

    Heavens forbid you should be the final arbitrator on what is fun for everyone else. But more importantly that last sentence seems a little, uh, contradictory. Don't you mean non-life or fantasy?

    But Joyces last two books are great fun and the furthest thing from pretention I can think of. I'm thinking you don't know what pretentious means, everything he does in his writing he actually can do. His reach does not exceed his grasp. I just don't read them cover to cover, they're bathroom books for flipping through to steal lyric ideas. They are also the most common books I can think of that people claim suck but have never actually read past the first page.

    I'm half way through the first GoT book right now and I'm enjoying it just fine. But after all the arguements here I'm going in just hoping it's not total unreadable crap like, say, that Jordan loser who sucks all the enjoyment out of life if you try to read him.

  • avatarscissors

    I like Joyce just fine.

  • JJJJS
    Quote:
    I call bullshit on the 'no overall story' claim. Because there is no 'big bad' or lame ass 'quest' that means there is no overall story?!? What? So Beowulf and King Arthur don't have a story either?


    Those have stories. And big bads and quests. But it doesn't have to be that simple. Stories don't have to have a quest or big bad. But they need a definitive beginning, middle, and end. If someone asked me what the beginning, middle, and end to Game of Thrones was, I couldn't tell you. It was all middle. Sure, there's a plot. Sure, there's character development. Sure, there's conflict. Sure, there's everything to tell a tale. It's just not, as I see it, a story arc in the traditional definition of the word. Don't think because I'm using terms like soap opera and comic book I'm running it down. It's a stylistic choice I think GRRM's making.

    Quote:
    I also don't buy the claim that Martin is making it up as he goes along...


    Isn't that the definition of fiction? An author making things up as he goes along? Whether or not he has a plan or references the other books, he's making this stuff up in his head and letting the plot go where his imagination takes him. You seem to be seeing it as a bad thing, but it's not.

    However, to say he doesn't drop plot threads is giving him too much credit. He probably drops threads all the time. But since he takes a very long time to write a very long book and not an hour TV show with a budget and production time constraints, he can spend more time taking the plot thread in another direction rather than abandoning it completely. Again, not a bad thing.

  • avatarShellhead

    Right now, the series is 4/7 finished. I think that it's unfair to complain about the lack of ending. Well, except for the fact that Martin turns 63 this year, and doesn't look incredibly healthy for his age. But if he gets back on track at the pace he wrote the first three books, maybe we will get our ending by 2015.

    Good writers generally know the end of the story when they start writing. That's the main reason that the tv show Lost ended so badly... they didn't know where they were taking the story and introduced too many contradictory elements to ever end it properly.

    That said, Martin has definitely changed his mind along the way about how he was going to tell this story. Originally, it was going to be 3 books long, and there was going to be a significant jump forward in time between the second and third books. But Martin thought up more and more interesting angles to explore, and started writing out detailed sections that he was originally going to skim past. That's why the Stark kids are so young, they were supposed to be some years older by the conclusion due to the time jump.

    When Martin drops a plot thread in this story, there is often a corpse.

  • avatarwaddball

    Few years old, but this interview is interesting. He divides authors into "architects" and "gardeners", and puts himself in the latter. I've no doubt he has a big picture resolution in mind, but there's a lot of meandering going on, esp. in Book 4, that I bet was never remotely envisioned in Book 1.

    @Frank: I'm not expressing myself clearly about the characters, probably because I've never really thought about it before. I like reading about them, I find them interesting and compelling; they feel "real" to me, not the cardboard mouthpieces you find in lots of genre writing.

    But I don't identify with them in the same way I do in most fantasy novels. Maybe part of that is that there are so many POV characters that you can't care about them all, and I don't really want to pick and choose too much either, as (a) they may be killed off in the next page, and (b) I don't want to be waiting for the bits I'm interested in at the expense of the bits I'm reading. So I keep a certain distance.

    Sorry, tl;dr.

  • JJJJS
    Quote:
    I think that it's unfair to complain about the lack of ending.


    I'm not complaining. I'm merely making an observation of what I see. Saying that he's more than doubled the intended volumes since he started tells me even more he's not interested in an ultimate conclusion. He's enjoying telling the tale he wants to tell and doesn't want to stop. If it were a story in the traditional sense, it would reach a point that people, even GRRM, would say, "Enough is enough. It's concluded. I don't need to read more. Any more would be anticlimactic." Instead, this series will end only when he says it does.

    GRRM can weave a tale, but I don't think he has any idea of where this one will end. He's into this thousands of pages, and has thousands more to go. The reason LOST got such backlash was the guys actually came out from the beginning and said they had an end plotted. Around Season 3, when Stephen King said in an interview he didn't think the series was going anywhere and compared it to the X-Files, the LOST people doubled down on their claim that all would be revealed and they had the end all planned out.

    Actually, if GRRM came out and said he had an ending, I'd call him a liar and then I would disrespect him. But I don't. I just don't like the characters or reading about the characters, which is what The Song of Ice and Fire is all about. I think he's doing a great job and the fact I could come into the middle of an episode in the TV series and know exactly who each character was and what scene of the book they're covering tells me he's a master of his craft.

    But he's only 63? Man, I had him pegged at 75. My dad's 61 and seems nothing like him age-wise.

  • avatarShellhead

    I guess I have faith in Martin's plan for the conclusion of this story because he did a couple of excellent standalone novels earlier in his career, plus lots of short stories.

  • avatarMattLoter  - re: re:
    JonJacob wrote:
    I'm thinking you don't know what pretentious means, everything he does in his writing he actually can do.

    Joyce himself isn't pretentious, people who like him just tend to be. My point isn't even that he sucks so much as the idea that "great" literature is a bunch of bullshit as an idea. The idea of "great" anything creative is generally bullshit. It's all subjective, yet pompous ivory tower motherfuckers like to make it such that there is some greater purpose or value in reading something like Joyce than there is in reading a Harlequin romance novel. There isn't.

    I've only read Ulysses, Portrait of the Artist and Finnegan's Wake, but that's plenty for me to not be a fan. If Joyce bothers you as a particular suggestion, how bout you pretend I said George Elliot instead. There is no way anyone actually enjoys Middlemarch.

  • Mr Skeletor

    Martin has said he has an ending. The HBO showrunners know what the ending will be.
    The rest of the argument is based on.... I don't know what it's based on actually since JJJ hasn't read it and isn't backing up his arguments with evidence. As far as the 'story' goes - "A united kingdom is fractured by the death of it's king. But while the kingdom battles itself, a greater threat gathers in the north which threatens to destroy them all." That's the story. It will end with someone taking the throne and reuniting the kingdom To defeat the northern threat. The title 'song of ice and fire' is likely a clue as to which characters that will be. There is your beginning, middle and end. Any evidence to the contrary?

  • Mr Skeletor

    Im also interested to know what plot threads you think were dropped shellhead. Most character deaths were foreshadowed long before they happened indicating they were always part of the plan.

  • avatarShellhead

    I was just joking around. What looks like a plot thread to some might just be some poor bastard who is marked for death. It's been a while since I read the first book, but I'm sure at least one of those guys in the prologue had some plans for the future that didn't work out.

  • avatarJonJacob
    Quote:
    The idea of "great" anything creative is generally bullshit. It's all subjective, yet pompous ivory tower motherfuckers like to make it such that there is some greater purpose or value in reading something like Joyce than there is in reading a Harlequin romance novel. There isn't.

    This is a really popular idea these days. Everyone I know, just about, would agree with you. Personally I think it's total bullshit though. I believe, really believe mind you, that Joyce (or whoever, but I don't like George Elliot) is Objectively better then September's issue of Cosmopolitan and I think that if we as a species give up that notion we're fucked. It's really hard to judge during the time the art is created but history makes it clear. I also believe that Beethoven is Objectively better then Britany Spears or someone like that. OBJECTIVELY , yes. I know it takes a bit of balls to say something like that these day in this wimpy society where everyone is afraid to step on anyones toes but if your seriously suggesting that we as a culture need to embrace Penthouse magazine to the same degree we embrace Shakespeare then I don't know what to tell you. Your crazy.

    There are shades though and I'm purposely choosing really obvious distinctions. Can I objectively say Frank Herbert is better or worse then say Isaac Asimov. No, that's too much but certainly we can agree that there is some objectivity when dealing with creative material that is worth celebrating and material that is simply reprehensible. This whole "all art is subjective" notion is garbage.

    Do you really believe that there is zero difference objectively between the speeches of Fred Phelps and Harvey Milk?

  • avatarShellhead

    JonJacob, I came around to your side of the quality debate a few years ago, but I have never heard the position stated so clearly. There really are some objective standards regarding quality in art, writing, music, etc, and the only people who will deny that are willfully ignorant.

  • avatarMattLoter

    I totally do believe there is no difference at all when it comes to a question of "better". Clearly different things have different levels of meaning, purpose and subject, but none of them are somehow intrinsically "better" than any other. Fuck stepping on toes, I'm not trying to be all culturally sensitive about it or anything, it's just that it's all bullshit. Everything. "Art" is some totally made up construct where we all get to pretend that our personal taste is somehow more "right" than someone else's.

    Please, enlighten me to these "objective standards" that clearly I don't get. You are telling me that there is some standard that everyone agrees upon and recognizes as the "truth"?

    I suppose now we're treading dangerously close to some sort of religious/philosophical argument, and I can accept that if you do believe there is such a thing as objective Truth in the world, that you might feel that extends into all areas, including art. But otherwise, it's just a bunch of wanking bullshit where you act like your taste and the people who agree with it are better than those that don't.

  • avatarJonJacob  - re:

    Warning! Do not read. TL:DR for our younger viewers.

    MattLoter wrote:

    Please, enlighten me to these "objective standards" that clearly I don't get. You are telling me that there is some standard that everyone agrees upon and recognizes as the "truth"?

    It's pretty tough to try and write something so high falutin' and obviously above my level for someone who doesn't really want, but claims sarcastically to, be "enlighten"ed by anything I might have to say on the topic.

    Your really asking me to get naked before you to some degree but you did call me out specifically in your first post, why else would you mention Joyce? So it's almost as if I feel obligated. But I can't do it too seriously, you have to realize that on a board game site comment section there's no way I can put even close to the right amount of work into the topic.

    I am bored and stuck in front of a Computer though so I'll kill some time with it for ya, but remember I'm being awfully nice doing this considering the amount of effort you've put into presenting your point of view on it.

    Here are some of the things I look for when judging writing.

    General technical quality; can the writer in question actually communicate effectively? Basic grammer wouldn't be the only consideration as many great writers eschew such tirival matters (usually after mastering them, I think this is important) for more colloquial styles in order to communicate something much more personal.

    Celine is my favorite example of this but there are many and sure that Joyce dude can count here too. Finnegan's Wake is virtuosic, I can't read it in the traditional sense but there is a beauty to it and I still am inspirerd by many sections. Huck Finn is a more American example and maybe Beautiful Losers would be a good Canadian example. All of these writers know the technical shit, you can see it in their writing, but they also forge very personal styles that offer you things no other writer can by moving past that into something entirely their own.

    The counter to these writers are people who are meerly effective but couldn't be reconized by anyone based on their prose alone because the style is so cliche or procedural as to be entirely indistinguishable from any other "hack". As much as I love someone like Asimov (and I really like Asimov) his prose is not accomplished, it's meerly effective. I can't help but mention it when I talk about him as a result. But there are many worse writers, and whoever wrote this book I have at home called "Revenge of the Ninja" (not based on the Sho Kosugi film I loved as a kid), is one of them.

    Understanding of the Human Condition; this one is a bit more vague and really hard to judge. Talking about this will go a bit too far past my abilities. The basic idea to me is that the writer in question can say things that will show they have seen the world around them. Not a large section at all but the world in a less physical way.

    It's easiest to see in writers that can accurately present different types of people, as if they're listening all the time to the varities of speech we have and trying to learn to think like other people and understand them. As opposed to many of us that may walk around with their heads in the sand only really knowing about ourselves and a few of our friends. Never really experiencing the world at large. I like Alan Moore for this kind of thing actually, the variety of characters he effectively portrays astounds me on a regular basis.

    Speaking to the Universal; this is the one you'll hate the most but in some ways it may be the most important. Comedy fails at this more then anything else I can think of... and I fucking love comedy deeply! But it dates very quickly.

    The idea is that as time goes by and we as a people change the writing in question can still be presented reasonably accurately (chances of reading in the original language are slim to none) and be largely effective in the other areas we know about shows that the person wasn't just talking to a select crowd but phrased things in such a deep and spellbinding manner that people in other times can still be effected by it beyond a simple WTF?. The work stull moves us and resonates, it still lives. Although many greats are forgotten it doesn't mean they couldn't resonate if presented to modern audiences.

    For examples of this just think of anything we still read today from a long time ago. Ask why Mozart and not Salieri? Things like the Old and New Testament, Beowulf, The Illiad and the Odessy, The Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám, The writings of Chuang Chao or Lao Tzu.

    That's only three ponints and I didn't go into the idea writers that we genre freaks love so much like a Huxley, Lovecraft and for you if I remember correctly, Tolkein, but I'm just wasting virtual space on Matt's fine article for something that no one will even read so au revoir for now (apparently wiritng in French is best if you want to write pretentious crap on F:AT, just ask old Braniganaenemanienggghee whatever his name was, guy was a godamned terrorist!).

  • avatarMattDP

    I'm inclined to agree with Jon on this one. The arguments about objective quality do, I think, apply to modern visual art where it really, truly is hard to hold up some sort of basic technical standard to judge things by. But in other areas of the arts I think it's entirely possible and in writing probably more so than others, as Jon has so eloquently stated.

    I wonder if some of you who are arguing otherwise have ever actually read some of the bargain-basement "novels" that little the dusty backshelves of airport bookshops which the authors clearly took about a week (if that) to write. There really is some truly atrocious shite out there which I've occasionally read out of politeness because a well-meaning relative has bought me one thinking that all fantasy literature is cut from the same cloth. You can't realistically tell me that Shakespeare is not objectively and measurably better than Guy N Smith.

  • tssfulk  - re: re:
    JonJacob wrote:
    MattLoter wrote:
    Stick to reading James Joyce and pretending like you actually enjoy that boring pretentious bullshit, I'll be playing Han Solo and Princess Leia with my wife and having fun at life.


    Heavens forbid you should be the final arbitrator on what is fun for everyone else. But more importantly that last sentence seems a little, uh, contradictory. Don't you mean non-life or fantasy?

    But Joyces last two books are great fun and the furthest thing from pretention I can think of. I'm thinking you don't know what pretentious means, everything he does in his writing he actually can do. His reach does not exceed his grasp. I just don't read them cover to cover, they're bathroom books for flipping through to steal lyric ideas. They are also the most common books I can think of that people claim suck but have never actually read past the first page.

    I'm half way through the first GoT book right now and I'm enjoying it just fine. But after all the arguements here I'm going in just hoping it's not total unreadable crap like, say, that Jordan loser who sucks all the enjoyment out of life if you try to read him.

    I agree. Even Dubliners is quite funny.

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