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graph.jpgA short while ago, over on Boardgamegeek, I made a bold and public statement to the effect that current trends in Euro game design were bad for the hobby as a whole. Another user, Pedro Silva (Mallgur) called me out on this, and asked me to explain what on earth I meant. I couldn’t give him a succinct answer to this question: in truth, what I’d phrased as a bold and definitive statement was in fact little more than a collection of vaguely associated ideas in my mind. But I was pretty sure there was a coherent argument there somewhere, so I said to him that I’d respond by putting my thoughts together into a column. So here it is - this is my response. 

The train of thought that lead me toward making that statement started a long time ago, when it occurred to me that two of the common defining features of Eurogames - the short rules and play time - had actually become design goals in themselves. I don’t see how anyone could possibly argue that keeping play time and rules length down to the minimum is a bad goal - the big question is what does one define as “the minimum”. Is it the minimum to convey a particular theme? The minimum to reach a certain number of meaningful decisions during play? The minimum to pass muster as an acceptable simulation of the Battle of the Bulge? Which minimum you pick is irrelevant to this argument: what’s important is that you have some sort of minimum, some sort of goal by which you define the success of your game. The trouble starts when something like “must play within 60 minutes” becomes a minimum in itself as that’s a sure-fire way to create a game with a short shelf life, because it exists to do nothing more than entertain the players for an hour. It has no other raison d’être. If that’s all it needs to do then it isn’t likely to be a game which has much depth or replay value. If you ruthlessly strip a game back to its bare essentials, you’re going to be left with something which is quite obviously some sort of logic puzzle. And it’s an unfortunate fact that logic puzzles often have a solution - once you’ve got it, the puzzle ceases to have value. This is what seemed to be happening with more and more Eurogames.

At the time I formulated this opinion, it looked to me that the market was being flooded with gluts of games that people were buying, playing maybe once or twice and then forgetting and moving on to the next shiny exciting thing. Whatever happened to Yspahan or Santiago or Reef Encounter or Ticket to Ride XIIIIXX: Revenge of the Mutant Steam Boilers? All (well, mostly) games that got raved about at one time or another, and were indeed solid enough designs, only to drop into the mists of relative obscurity in a vanishingly small space of time. Often, it seemed because they’d been slimmed, reduced and playtested to the point where there was relatively little left to engage the attentions of gamers over more than a handful of plays.

This was the basis of the nefarious and unfortunate “cult of the new”. And it was being aided and abetted by the hype-mongers of the internet who’d scream “OMG, best thing since Chess!!” after a couple of plays only to quietly drop it like a stone another couple of plays later and move on the next shiny thing.

I can’t see how anyone could possibly defend this process as being good for the hobby. We, the consumers, were being buried under avalanches of rubbish in which it was becoming increasingly difficult to pick out the gems. As a result, publishers felt emboldened to keep on offering us rubbish because we kept buying it, and designers no longer felt the need to innovate or to produce genuinely exciting games because they knew that a game knocked up over a couple of months would still find a publisher and enough of an audience to pay their bills. Whatever happened to the early German games like Settlers or Ra or Bohnanza which were relatively simple and quick but which also had immense replay value and clearly had some sort of point to their existence other than turning a quick buck?

But I’m hardly alone in having that particular opinion, or in taking the time to point out to people the problems engendered by that approach. What really alarmed me, and lead me to making the blanket statement about current trends in design being bad, was the realisation that nearly all of the highest ranked games of recent years were efficiency engine games. If you look at the BGG top ten then I would characterise at least six of them as quite clearly being efficiency optimisation games. There are heavy overtones of the efficiency engine in two of the others. It looked rather as though the success of Puerto Rico had forced all the Euro designers to live in its shadow and churn out clones in order to please the taste makers over at BGG. So I reached the conclusion that the way in which designers were moving gaming was ruthlessly toward the efficiency engine model, the style of game that I dislike the most, to the exclusion of all else.

Or were they?

See, when Pedro called me out and demanded that I defend my opinion, I obviously had to sit down and think about it. And the more I thought about it the more that I realised that my argument was built on some fairly shaky foundations. What first struck me was that in recent years, alongside the meteoric rise of massively hyped efficiency engine games such as Agricola and Dominion there had been an increasing number of other Euro designers who’d been moving away from the efficiency model that had made Puerto Rico so popular, and who had been creating and employing a variety of clever mechanics in doing so. What’s more many of these games, such as Imperial and Shogun, had been very highly lauded and achieved a lot of success on the back of very little hype at all, even if they didn’t actually end up making the holy grail of the BGG top ten.

On further consideration I was also struck by the fact that a lot of the most popular Euro titles actually break their own definitions. Neither Agricola nor Puerto Rico nor Caylus are particularly simple, partly because they require players to internalise the effects of a variety of different resources and buildings. The former two games, whilst almost wholly skills based, depend on random elements to seed the differentials which give them replay value. Nor, I should add, are any of them all that quick, with most requiring 90-120 minutes to play. So could I really make a circular argument about the demand for shorter, simpler, logic-driven games ruining the hobby as a whole, when it seemed like the most successful games were actually turning away from this model, and utilising more concepts and random elements to add replayability and depth to the game? No.

I still think that the whole speed and simplicity thing, and the “cult of the new” concept are overly prevalent and bad for gaming as a whole. But on examination two things stand out. Firstly, my claim about current trends in design being detrimental to the hobby is patently false. In actual fact it looks a whole lot like things are moving in the other direction - after a few years dominated by the “short and simple” mantra, many designers are breaking out of the mould and making longer, more complex and more random games and whilst there’s still a lot of optimisation games around, a significant number of authors are using this break with the past to move design in new and interesting directions. So I’m glad that I decided to answer Pedro’s question in a column - I made my original statement in a public place from which the limelight has now moved. So it seems right that I should make my retraction in an equally public place where plenty of people can see it. Pedro: I was wrong.

But.

There was, as I said, a second opinion that came out of all the considering I’d been doing. Like I said, the cult of the new is still with us, and even if things are shifting somewhat it’s still damaging and potentially dangerous. What I said about the uniformity of the top ten on BGG is also still true. There is a problem here. What I’d got wrong was the source.

The source is that there is a single, overriding source of opinions about gaming on the internet: BGG. It’s not the fault of anyone at BGG that it got to be that way, indeed given the status of our hobby as a minor aspect of a minority pursuit it was perhaps inevitable. But I can’t help but to think that it has got to the point where it’s becoming damaging. The reason the top ten is so uniform is because the bulk of people on BGG who rate games (which isn’t necessarily the same as the bulk of users overall) are fans of that style of game. The reason so many other games are starting to look like clones of each other is because they’re playtested with this same audience in mind and, perhaps worse, playtested to the point of destruction where anything which might be seen as being imbalancing or offensive or illogical or indeed interesting is ruthlessly trimmed. And this sort of playtesting goes on because designers and publishers know that if they annoy a single vocal BGG user that user will be able to damn their game with a single post, since so many gamers interested in the title will check the entry on BGG. The reason the cult of the new continues to perpetuate itself is because a few self-proclaimed tastemakers on one site have the ear of the significant majority of the gaming world.

So if it’s not the fault of BGG, whose fault is it? It’s mine. Or, to be less egocentric it’s the fault of every gamer who writes about gaming outside the confines of BGG. We need those people to be good writers and to some extent able self-publicists so that gamers of all stripes will go to Hardcore Ludography, visit Consim World and of course read columns on here on F:AT and on BGN. We want more mixing and meeting of minds and more meaningful discussions from people who are exposed to a range of different ideas and opinions about gaming. I was wrong about the direction we’re going in: what I’m asking for has already started to happen. But the speed with which it happens, and indeed whether or not this sort of cross-pollination moves us forward or gets strangled at birth, is up to us.

This is a copy of an article posted on http://www.boardgamenews.com/. The audience over on that site will be contributing a discussion thread of their own which I imagine will head in very different directions to this one. In the interests of diversity, please head on over there, read the comments and if you have something to say, add it to the debate!

Comments (22)add comment

hancock.tom said:

hancock.tom
...
The problem with the "efficiency engine" style of game, whether long or short, is that ultimately you are playing the system, not each other. Thats what I find troubling. Highly interactive euro designs like T&E are tumbling down the rankings while circle jerk style efficiency games where the only interaction is buying something before someone else seem to be more common. Can we call it the St. Petersberg phenomenon?

Gamers are very prone to groupthink. This is what causes the cult of the new. Heck we aren't immune to it here. Has anyone criticized BSG on this site? It is far from a perfect game. Anyway, the groupthink on BGG for the last two years or so has been that interaction is bad and that efficiency games with little interaction, balanced so tightly that your opponent's actions are meaningless, are the future of boardgaming.
January 26, 2009

vandemonium said:

vandemonium
...
What strikes me is a that there is a legitimate and in my opinion, necessary criticism to be made for the "cult of the new." I fall prey to it myself.

Tom points out above "Gamers are very prone to groupthink." I would also point out that gamers also tend to be prone to being a cantankerous lot who argue about *EVERYTHING* Rules lawyers. Rules Nazis, etc. The think is this is done by different people in different manners. Some more passively aggressive, some just plain old aggressive.

I honestly don't think that TOS is nearly as uniformed as sometimes it is portrayed as. To a degree, there is a vocal group that drowns out all but the most obstinent critics. But there ARE dissenting voices. Some of us are that obsitnate.

I would point to Dominion as a game that is really not "Euro" at all, it is much more cousin to CCGs than to any Euro game. Its success, and the development of games like Android, BSG etc., show that there are games that fall well outside the "mold" of stereotypical TOS games.

Where I think the criticism fits and our collective responsibility falls is in honestly looking at whatever the new darling game is and not falling into the cult of the new trap of love it or else.

I also do think that perhaps we sometimes take this all a bit too seriously. I mean do game designers read any of our blatherings? Do they think, "oh dear, how will this play on the interwebs?" I don't know. But I would guess that in general a lot of game design is much more organic and less manufactured than that. I'm sure that designers look at what is selling and what is "hot" and do take that into account. But if that was ALL they did would we have anything other than Monopoly clones?

I have play tested a couple of games. They had some familiar mechanisms to them. I have done a Settlers of Catan Scenario for a competition, it had some familiar mechanisms to it. I am working on a game with my uncle, and guess what, yea, familiar mechanisms. It is hard to be original. So it is not surprising that there are gluts of games with a similar feel. Sometimes that is OK, if has some new elements to it that makes the overall game fun and fresh. But as consumers and as yappers we should all be honest about it.
January 26, 2009

Million Dollar Mimring said:

Million Dollar Mimring
...
Some designers, maybe not companies, pay attention to the ramblings of the interweb. You're dealing with such a small niche market. The "Variety" of boardgaming seems to be BGG. If the leader of a group says Game X is bad and the group follows, it may not be the death nail of a game, but it doesn't bode well for certain games either.
January 26, 2009

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
...
Designers and publishers do pay attention to the interweb. It's why DoW is doing something with a more AT-friendly theme (that's not BATTLELORE) and it's why Alderac did TOMB.

This is a knockout article Matt, and you've brought to the surface a lot of my grievances...I saw over at BGN you got Faidutti's agreement, and I think that's pretty darn cool. But then you got Derek Carver citing DUCK DEALER as an example of "meaty" games that we should all be thankful for.

The problem is homogenity. Games are designed by people entrenched in the hobby, friends with designers and other people in the hobby, and completely committed to particpating in the online community. You've got designers purposefully "redeveloping" existing game ideas to simpler/shorter, practically rewriting older titles to satisfy modern tastes, and designers engaging in the wholesale appropriation of mechanics and concepts from currently popular games to seed the next generation of me-too games. You rarely have people designing outside of this racket, and I think that's a big problem.

Not that there's anything wrong with being influenced by other games or participating- the problem is that the whole thing is a big gigantic bubble.

It's also particularly harmful that there is apparently some site where people assign numerical ratings to games and collectively decide what is going to be popular or "good" and this one site is where most board games discussion goes on. I personally can't believe there's another board games discussion site outside of F:AT, Consimworld, and BGN, but you guys are telling me it's out there. It sounds like the Cult of the New-spawned title churn that is helping to encourage publishers to increase their output of shovelware mostly occurs there.

There's nothing wrong with simpler, shorter games at all. I just played that THROUGH THE AGES dice game last night and I thought it was pretty good- about a page's worth of rules, your Grandma could probably get into it, and it looks like a Cracker Barrel game. But it was fun, easy, and pretty cool. It doesn't always have to be about hugeness and complexity...but by the same token, constantly driving this "under an hour and 1 page of rules" thing as a design goal is terrible. It's like junk food after awhile, and now we've got these people in the hobby that pursue that exclusively.

January 26, 2009

Shellhead said:

Shellhead
...
At one point while we were working on Vampire: Dark Influences for White Wolf, we were instructed to decrease play time from 2-3 hours to 30 minutes or less. That's right, a game for 2-6 players, playable in 30 minutes or less. Needless to say, White Wolf has had a particularly steep learning curve with boardgames. At this point, nobody would even look at their games if they didn't have such great source material.
January 26, 2009

Gary Sax said:

Gary Sax
...
CSW is just as vulnerable to rapid swings in attention as well, they are just looking for way different things.
January 26, 2009

Juniper said:

Juniper
...
The clearest example of the way that BGG influences game publishers is the AGRICOLA preorder program, which was publicized more-or-less entirely through that site. Z-MAN wouldn't have been able to finance the production of the game without BGG.
January 26, 2009

moofrank said:

moofrank
...
Looking at prototypes presented at one con with a lot of prototypes, what Barnes says is mostly correct. Publishers really do want something at the same time both familiar and innovative, but recycling is rampant.

And thus what we are getting is very familiar games with one or two changes.

As to hour-long games--it is entirely possible to design solid games within a 60 minute play time. The thing is, they have to stick to only one or two mechanics.

That makes auction games the most successful sort of 60 minute game--and it is why early short Euros are rife with them. I think that a lot of the issue is that a lot of people are tired of auction games...and the attempts to make a good, short game without them are clumsy.

...unless you add a lot more stuff to the game.

There are some quite remarkable abstracts that fit well within 60 minutes. Years later, a friend and I are still learning things about Claim. But no one seems to like absracts...AT or Euro.
January 26, 2009

hancock.tom said:

hancock.tom
...
The hype engine is pretty incredible. Race for the Galaxy is a good example... it was the second coming of Jesus for a long time on there. I think it was at one point rated in the top 8 or so? Now it is an afterthought, buoyed by old ratings made during its time in the limelight. It will be interesting to see what happens to Agricola once Le Havre hits more stores in the US. Will people adjust their ratings, like they did for RFTG, or will TOS end up with the same rampant ratings inflation seen by sites like IMDB, where a new OK movie outranks an old fantastic movie by virtue of getting more votes?



January 26, 2009

Space Ghost said:

Space Ghost
...
@moofrank: I like abstracts. A lot of times I wish Euros would just cut the bullshit, leave off the theme, streamline the rules, and make a good abstract

@Tom: TOS ranking/rating system is in fucking shambles. They know just enough about statistics to do something wrong that sounds right. A personal pet peeve of mine that I will just leave alone so you guys don't have to hear me beat a dead horse and perhaps approach wankerdom.
January 26, 2009

Gary Sax said:

Gary Sax
...
I would like to hear about it Spaceghost.

Also, can we make it a thing that for the next month we only have articles with pictures of some sort of black and white graph on them?
January 26, 2009

Orthodork said:

Orthodork
...
@Spaceghost: The amusing thing is that even though a lot of Euros are effectively abstracts, a lot of Euro players won't play abstracts at all. I'm a big fan of abstracts, and getting them played at one of my gaming groups is near impossible.
January 26, 2009

Uethym said:

Uethym
...
The hype engine is pretty incredible. Race for the Galaxy is a good example... it was the second coming of Jesus for a long time on there. I think it was at one point rated in the top 8 or so? Now it is an afterthought, buoyed by old ratings made during its time in the limelight.


Race is #10, and I would argue that it has dropped not because people are readjusting ratings, but because newer hype machines (i.e. Dominion at #6) are passing it. Race is #2 on T.O.S. in recorded plays, and second in plays in our group behind only BSG (yes, the same people can love both!).

This is a minor quibble -- I think Dominion and Le Havre will plummet exactly as you describe (not sure about Agricola, with the large cushion it has). But I've never understood the Race hate. Not *every* game has to be about interaction. It is possible to make efficiency engines fun, and I find Race to be the most addictive. Can't stand Dominion, though -- talk about switching off your brain.
January 26, 2009

Space Ghost said:

Space Ghost
...
I agree that efficiency games can be fun. The point, I think, is that when everyone is just trying to refine efficiency engines the gaming scence begins to become stale.
January 26, 2009

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
...
I definitely agree that efficiency games _can_ be fun. I still think PUERTO RICO is a pretty interesting design and I wouldn\'t turn down a game a year of it. But it\'s all the me-too stuff that\'s come along that\'s ruined the whole genre. I mean, GOA? WTF?

It\'s funny how OUTPOST got completely buried and forgotten in the efficiency engine sweepstakes...that was really the first game I knew of that had that whole \"build an economic engine\" thing going on outside of the rail games.

I liked AGRICOLA because I thought it provided tangible rewards for your efficiency and was true to its theme (whether you liked it or not). I liked DOMINION because it had an awesome mechanic and it boiled down the efficiency thing down to a 30 minute game without a lot of bullshit. So no, efficiency games don\'t suck by default, I don\'t think...it\'s just that a) the people that play them mostly tend to be anal fun murderers and b) the lack of interaction can not support a game longer than an hour and some change- that means that as far as I\'m concerned 2-3 players is an absolute maximum for any game in the genre including the ones that I like.

Going back to AGRICOLA and DOMINION...both of those games have very clear antecedents outside of the board game bubble. Both have very distinct CCG elements and the stronger than usual commitment to setting and theme in AGRICOLA sets it apart. DOMINION leverages card combinations and deck building in ways that garbage like BLUE MOON never could muster.

Compare those to RACE FOR THE GALAXY, which is SAN JUAN re-skinned with SF artwork and a bunch of icons. RftG is exactly what I mean about games being made in the hobby bubble. Tom Lehmann used to make really interesting, quirky games (MYSTIC WAR, FAST FOOD FRANCHISE, THRONEWORLD, TIME AGENT) until he fell in with that crowd. Maybe those games weren\'t the best all around, but they were unusual and unique. Now he rips off PUERTO RICO and designs games to pacify his GoF buddies. It\'s disappointing, because he is a talented and very creative designer.



January 26, 2009

Tamburlaine said:

Tamburlaine
...
I too have never understood the hate for Race; I enjoy it a lot and I can't stand Puerto Rico.

I think a lot of the reason that there has come to be a certain homogeneity at the top of the BGG ratings is that the supporters of the Euro efficiency game have been able to work out a universal aesthetic doctrine when it comes to games; groupthink can't exist without this sort of firm ideological foundation. I happen to think their aesthetics are rather misguided, but the system of views is somewhat coherent (I don't know if it's been set out in a manifesto, but it easily could be), and moreover addresses certain points of anxiety among many gamers, chief among them the question "How do I justify my boardgaming habit as a valid intellectual exercise, and not merely childish fantasizing or play?"

Unfortunately the ideology that pacts the BGG top ten with efficiency games of various sorts has gone about answering this central question the wrong way, emphasizing that good games provide a competitive context within which the intellect of the players can be judged. Under this definition the serious boardgamer is doing something much more acceptable with his time than, say, the teenage roleplayer is, because he is effectively taking a strenuous regimen of competitive IQ tests.

This doctrine has not only a strong and simple coherence, but also a great justifying power for the adult who, to the outside world, appears to be continuing in childish behavior by playing games. It is not surprising then that it should have become the dominant ideology among those who want to take their boardgaming seriously.

It is also not surprising that it has remained the dominant ideology because no other doctrine has appeared on the scene with the same internal coherence. Although ideas from this site and others are beginning to change things, we must own up to the fact that the concepts of 'theme' and 'narrative' have yet to be unified to the same degree as the doctrines of the Game-as-Intellectual-Competition have been. Until we --as Trashies, as gamers in general-- can form a model as coherent and convincing as the current ideology of The Other Site, we can expect this sort of stagnation in our community.
January 26, 2009

domus_ludorum said:

domus_ludorum
...
A good article which I enjoyed reading.

I can't say that I dislike 'efficiency engine' games, as long as they are implemented well and are wedded, however abstractly, to a good theme. There is though a limit to how many of this type of game that I feel the need to have - how many games do I really need where I place workers to gain cubes to trade at different rates for either more cubes, buildings or victory point - I'd already got tired of this mechanism in RTS games for the PC.

That having been said there would appear to be no limit to the number of games I'm prepared to bring through the door involving military units, CRT's, card/events etc. So whether there is too many games of one type or not is probably a matter of personal taste.

The cult of the new, the associated hype, then rapid fall into obscurity is not just a phenomena that afflicts the game industry, but is a facet of our consumerist society. Manafacturers need product churn so that they can keep selling you things, even if it is the same thing repackaged. The last thing they want is to sell you something that is the last thing you will ever need in a particular product line.

I don't think that any opinion setters within the ranks of BGG users have sufficient influence to cause/drive the hype but the rankings may well do. The way the ratings are framed at BGG does tend to reinforce the 'cult of the new' due to the criteria being phrased in terms of how much you want to play a game at the current moment, rather than being based on an assessment of the various qualities of a game. If more of the BGG users revisited their ratings against the existing criteria this would be even more the case.

I would like to see the ratings system on BGG changed, or at least an additional ranking system to supplement the existing one, based on ratings of the various qualities of the game (depth, aesthetics, components, fun etc) rather than just the existing 'flavour of the month', but I don't think that this will solve the underlying 'consumerist' pressure for the 'new'.

I had however better leave the BGG ratings topic alone as even though I'm a new user here I sense that the subject may have been turned over before. smilies/smiley.gif
January 26, 2009

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
...
Tamburlaine, that was a TKO. You'd think that you had been silently watching the debates, discussions, and conversation here and completely summed up pretty much the whole thing in one succinct post. I mean, you nailed almost every aspect of the AT opposition.

I think things have changed a lot over the past two years, actually. In 2003, a very thematic game like WAR OF THE RING was an anomaly. In 2002, a conflict-heavy game was practically unheard of at all outside of some fringe publishers, wargame firms, or the work that Eagle Games was doing (before Drover sold out and basked in the accolades that me-too games like AGE OF EMPIRES III have recieved).

See, I remember 2001-2002. If you wanted to play anything like an AT game, you either went down into the basement and dug up your old AH games or copy of SIEGE OF THE CITADEL or you played WAR! AGE OF IMPERIALISM. Or you could play a crudely produced and poorly designed travesty like CULTS ACROSS AMERICA. But you could buy Eurogames by the boatloads, and I- like a lot of other "lifers"- did. My friends wanted to play Euros, I wanted to play Euros. But then, it does seem like about 2003 that things started shifting. I'd actually pinpoint it to the almost back-to-back releases of AGE OF MYTHOLOGY and GAME OF THRONES. That's when conflict, theme, and interaction suddenly seemed to reappear in designs. Then there was stuff like MEMOIR '44, WAR OF THE RING, and so on that brought light wargaming back into the equation. Now, it's six years later and I think that the dominant aesthetic has pretty much been backed into a corner, it's just that it's a very vocal and insinuating aesthetic that a lot of people seem to have WAY too much invested in. Plus, there's a huge online community that perpetuates that aesthetic and- what's worse- proposes that it is the only approach to "These Games of Ours".

The whole intellectual contest element of it is something that I don't think has been completely dug up and dissected. It doesn't make much sense to me to play a board game to prove to your friends that you're "clever", but god damn it a lot of people do. I've been in games with people who have stopped just short of calling me an idiot for doing something that wasn't the best or doing something just because I wanted to see what the outcome would be. I've been in games of fucking TICKET TO RIDE where I've been criticized for having "poor" strategy. And I've been told that I have given a game a bad review because I somehow played it wrong- like I'm either too dumb to read a rulebook or too dense to witness the glory and brilliance.

On some other board game sites, a bad review or comment regarding a popular game is inevitably met with a host of forum junkies (kind of like black tar heroin junkies) who circle the poster and proceed to audit the review and point out how very, very wrong the person is for having a dissenting opinion. They'll cite certain opinions as wrong, they'll adopt a condescending tone about how the poster couldn't possibly have understood something so incredibly clever, and generally proceed to bend over backwards to say that the person is a moron. AND THEN elsewhere they'll claim that they want to see completely impartial and objective reviews.

I'm not going to be coy like I usually am, but I'm also not going to violate my oath. These other board game sites, outside of their factual, informational components, are the absolute ruin of this hobby. Yes, we have greater access to knowledge, yes we have greater access to other gamers and discourse but when it's all going through a very, very tight intellectual bottleneck then what happens is nothing good. Aside from that, sites like those in question take the hobby out of being about playing games and into being about auditing and nitpicking the opinions and attitudes of others in order to validate what are the core, established right ways of thinking. It's how the internet works in general, but in such a small hobby world as board gaming it is all the more evident.
January 26, 2009

moofrank said:

moofrank
...
With some credit to Tom Lehmann, Race was mostly designed BEFORE San Juan. Alea asked around for a Puerto Rico card game. Eventually, they went with one by the Puerto Rico designer.

As far as efficiency engine games, there are a few business games that are even earlier. Outpost was just one of the more amazing and complete ones. But it is really a business game with pretty clothing.
January 27, 2009

Sagrilarus said:

Sagrilarus
...
Yes, we have greater access to knowledge, yes we have greater access to other gamers and discourse but when it's all going through a very, very tight intellectual bottleneck then what happens is nothing good.


How many of us would be here on this site were it not for a stopover at BGG first? I think you're discounting the amount of positive energy it has thrown into the industry. I as well have become disappointed in the past year with the content there, but I think it has brought a lot of money and interest into the industry and I see the current funnel that mainstream games are going down as just a temporary situation. What I'm finding remarkable is that, unlike every other group of trend followers I've ever run into, the center-lane crowd on BGG has not moved onto something newer and trendier. They're long overdue. I simply cannot imagine that situation will continue, and God help the poor devotees whose games they choose to invade next.

A question for Matt -- I very much enjoyed reading your original article and the conversation that has followed, but you've only looked at one side of the coin. I've been more curious about the packaging and marketing aspect of the current releases. I'm talking publishers, not designers. Have you considered that side at all? As explored in Barnes' recent article on pricing I think the marketing mix (including theme selection which has a particularly glaring example of publisher intervention on the hot list right now) is already going through a transformation.

Sag.


January 27, 2009

Bullwinkle said:

Bullwinkle
...
What I'm finding remarkable is that, unlike every other group of trend followers I've ever run into, the center-lane crowd on BGG has not moved onto something newer and trendier. They're long overdue. I simply cannot imagine that situation will continue, and God help the poor devotees whose games they choose to invade next.

But it will continue. And the other devotees are as safe as they can be. This is not a traditional follow-the-herd phenomenon, but something else. The reason that the TOSsers aren't moving on is that, to many of them, games aren't really about fun, they're about proving their superior intellect. Efficiency games, luckless games, passive-aggressive games, etc. fulfil this criterion; other types of games don't. Certainly Ameritrash, or RPGs, or CCGs, or even wargames don't fit this bill, and never will. (It is interesting how much dislike there is for abstracts, though, since many of these games are just slightly dolled up abstracts. More self-denial?)

How many of us would be here on this site were it not for a stopover at BGG first? I think you're discounting the amount of positive energy it has thrown into the industry.

I certainly wouldn't be here, and I'm sure that's true of most of us. The problem isn't the site, which is a brilliant database, but the so-called "community" which acts as the intellectual bottleneck and absolutely does have a negative impact. As usual, the language and terms a culture uses is the easiest way to see what's behind the curtain. The most egregious offenders here are 'chrome' and 'fiddly'. WTF? Both of these terms are derogatory, and are intended to be. 'Chrome' is what you call something shiny that has no impact on the function of the object in question. 'Fiddly' implies that there are special exceptions to rules in certain cases, or details that need to be remembered. Both of these are sins in the TOSser world, the latter a major one. But both of these are essential for a thematic experience. To each their own, sure, but what kind of a jackass thinks this is a bad thing? And even if you do, what the fuck do you care if others want this? While 'chrome' and 'fiddliness' are to be held to a minimum--if included at all--gaming cannot advance from its current state.

And while I'm on the topic, another problem is 'filler'. Huh? Before I returned to this hobby, I would have considered 'filler' to be a game that you and I would play because we both got knocked out of the game and the other three guys are duking it out. I don't understand this modern trend (of course, tied intimately to the cult of the new) for short games and scheduled times for game nights. "We've got 4 hours...I'd say one Agricola, one Race for the Galaxy, three Dominions and a Carcassonne, eh, what?" I don't have a problem with short games in general, but when your criterion is that you need something that can be finished in 15 minutes in case the last game you play ends at 10:45 and you have until 11:00 before you need to go home, you're looking at things in entirely the wrong way. And, yes, I realize we're adults and can't do things like we used to. That's not the issue.
January 27, 2009

MattDP said:

MattDP
...
I think a lot of the reason that there has come to be a certain homogeneity at the top of the BGG ratings is that the supporters of the Euro efficiency game have been able to work out a universal aesthetic doctrine when it comes to games


This, and the remainder of this comment, is pure fucking gold. Michael is right to say that this is an aspect of gaming we've yet to explore. In the terms that you've framed it's easy to see that virtually no other gaming subculture has managed to define its terms quite so solidly. AT is sitting on a particularly messy basis, and this may be why we continue to define ourselves by what we're against rather than what we're for. I think that our tendency to do this which has garnered us the moniker of "hate mongers" from other quarters.

chief among them the question "How do I justify my boardgaming habit as a valid intellectual exercise, and not merely childish fantasizing or play?"


The only point in your post I disagree with is that this is how it started. I think the drive toward Eurogames started with a much more reasonable question of "how can I get more strategic choice into my games", a question which was forced upward by the glut of really rather crappy AT games that were flooding the market in the late eighties and early nineties. I have no doubt however that a certain set of gamers took that sensible question and mutated it into the one you describe, and that this quite possibly is the motivating force in the move from "German" games to "Euro" games.

Manafacturers need product churn so that they can keep selling you things, even if it is the same thing repackaged. The last thing they want is to sell you something that is the last thing you will ever need in a particular product line.


Yes. The trouble is that a modern approach to selling product is a relatively new thing in the games industry, and the fact that it's arrived does not bode well. This might event be linked to the price rises we've seen on some games recently that Michael discussed in Gameshark last week. It's happened in other areas of the hobby too: RPGs underwent a marketing revolution ten years ago, miniatures games did the same thing maybe twenty years ago. The result was fewer publishing companies and less choice, but whether the impact overall was positive or negative is hard to say.

I think things have changed a lot over the past two years, actually. In 2003, a very thematic game like WAR OF THE RING was an anomaly


This is a really important point in this argument which I failed to highlight sufficiently in my original article. The diversity of games on offer has in fact improved immensely over the past few years, in tandem with the rise of the ultimately forgettable consumer Eurogame. That's why I stepped back from my original accusation. It seemed quite clear to me that there has been a seismic shift in attitudes toward games since I first got in to board gaming as a hobby in 2002.

A question for Matt -- I very much enjoyed reading your original article and the conversation that has followed, but you've only looked at one side of the coin. I've been more curious about the packaging and marketing aspect of the current releases. I'm talking publishers, not designers. Have you considered that side at all?


Not until you asked the question smilies/smiley.gif

I've covered it briefly above, wondering whether we're not on the verge of a big tightening up of the market for boardgames. Beyond that I can't say I think an awful lot about marketing. I'm of the old school who are used to seeing niche games with appalling production values, and I'm still happy with that approach if the price is right. Whether more modern consumers are demanding more from publishers is therefore hard for me to say.
January 27, 2009

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