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children playing chessI have an amazingly poor record when it comes to finding bargain copies of games in charity shops. But about this time last year I came close - I found copies of Civilization and Kingmaker in my local charity shop. I didn’t buy either, the former being one very long game too many and the latter being something I already own. But what was particularly interesting about this experience was that both games were ones that any gamer worth his or her salt would recognise as being classic titles which are heavyweights in terms of both complexity and strategy, whilst the staff in the charity shop had stacked them with the children’s’ books, and the adult books were being kept company by any number of god-awful cheap shot party games and TV quiz show spin-offs. This demonstrates, I think, the perception in which board gaming is held by the general public: something that kids do.

This reputation for immaturity seems to be unique to our corner of the hobby and seems to be a uniquely embarrassing thing to have to admit to. In years gone by when people asked me about my hobbies I was usually happy to answer “dungeons & dragons” or “miniature wargaming” without shame and the worst reaction I’d usually get was to be pigeonholed as an unusually talkative nerd - which probably isn’t far from the truth. Nowadays when people ask I tend to mumble something about “strategy games” and, if pressed, I pretend that I play a lot of Chess. And to really rub salt into the wound we’re all well aware that in many respects board gaming is in fact a rather more mature hobby than role-playing or miniatures - it’s more intellectually demanding and even those of us who, like me, glory in thick fantasy and science-fiction themes on their games will grudgingly admit that there are some pretty decent abstracts and games with non-nerd themes out there if you care to look. But of course the general public don’t know about these games and continue, unfairly, to treat us board gamers with undeserved suspicion.

Given this unfortunate state of affairs it’s hardly surprising that the board gaming community should react adversely to the labels slapped upon them. The trouble is that that reaction takes two particularly pernicious forms which are not merely unlikely to advance the situation in any way but are ultimately very destructive to the hobby itself. Indeed they could be seen as so ill-advised as to perhaps warrant the “immaturity” label after all.

The first is that it seems to bring out in some gamers a particularly zealous form of neo-religious conversion fervour which compels them to go out into the world and preach the gospel of board gaming to all who will listen and most who won’t. We’ve all come across gamers like this - the sort of people who will turn up at game club and anxiously state that they’ve been invited to a dinner party with their boss and his family and want to know what gateway games they should take and then, in spite of being told that the obvious answer is “none”, spend the remainder of the week loosing sleep over how they’re going to whittle down their short-list to just a car boot full of games. Indeed I suspect we all have a microcosm of this in us because we’d all like to find it a bit easier to find people to play against. But the social death which an admission of board gaming as a hobby usually seems to bring just flames this tendency to truly messianic levels in some people.

In spite of the fact that I can relate to the kernel of this particular behaviour I totally fail to understand the sorts of people who just keep pushing it. Some people, most people, don’t like and/or aren’t interested in games and that’s fine by me. If, in any given social situation, I get given the green light to wax lyrical about my hobby because the conversation happens to turn that way then great but I’m not going to be the first one to mention it. Why should anyone else take so much time and effort to go out of their way to convince them otherwise? But the religious metaphor that I’m using is actually pretty apt because the board game evangelicals seems unable to accept that what brings them joy won’t necessarily bring joy to others. And this in itself would not be a huge problem was it not for the fact that the behaviour is ultimately counter-productive and usually does nothing but entrench the opinion in targets of the sermon that board gamers are dangerous - and immature - lunatics who should be shunned at all costs, together with the games they’re trying to peddle.

I suspect that for most of you out there I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. The other problem is something rather more subtle to get to grips with and was, in fact, my original inspiration in writing this article although the introduction seems to have run away with itself somewhat. The issue is that a lot of gamers seem to react to societies charge of “immaturity” by holding up the allegedly intellectual properties of board games like a shield against their scorn, and in doing so not only make themselves look pompous and inflated but within the hobby itself achieve nothing more than cause splits and divisions. Rather more so, I might add, than the sorts of divisions that I and some of my contemporaries have been accused of creating.

The argument is so well rehearsed that it seems almost pointless to re-hash it and it goes something like this: people in the wider world tend to regard people who focus exclusively on “lifestyle” abstracts like Chess and Go as being eccentric but extremely intelligent. Many of “these games of ours” are either just as demanding as said abstracts or, at the very least, are nearly so. Therefore if we focus on the intellectual properties of our favourite games to the exclusion of all else, we’ll feel better about ourselves and maybe, just maybe, people in society at large will start treating us with the same level of respect that the players of said abstracts get. Right?

Wrong.

Before we even come on to the problems this can cause within the hobby itself, it’s worth taking time to recognise that this line of thinking is deluded. For starters it’s never going to work on wider society because most of them don’t even know that hobby board games exist, let alone care, let alone be bothered in taking the time to recognise that it is, in fact, a pretty challenging pursuit. The credibility gap is just too wide to try and bridge with that is effectively only a fraction of an actual bridge: people would have to be more aware of hobby games before they started taking arguments about intellectual exercise at all seriously. The other reason that it’s deluded is because it’s based partly on a false premise: abstracts make good candidates for the intellectual excuse because they look classical rather than geeky. And yet I’ll bet that every single gamer who’s trotted out the “intellectual” argument owns and enjoys at least one fantasy or science fiction game. Which isn’t to say that games with fantasy or science fiction games can’t be intellectual but as soon as a hobbit pops up, no-one outside the inner circles of geekdom is going to accept that these games have a shred of credibility about them.

It also needs to be recognised that it’s deeply hypocritical. One way in which the typical condescending manner of the average non-gamer responding to a revelation of gaming could be described is as a form of snobbery. And of course trying to claim in the face of this attitude that what you’re doing is actually deeply important and rewarding because only those with the intellectual capacity of Bobby Fischer can possibly enjoy it is just fighting fire with fire. Because it is in itself a form of snobbery, just like every other form of snobbery it tends to engender poor reactions in people who encounter it and don’t agree. And the important point here is not just that the people who “don’t agree” will include virtually every non-gamer on the planet (thereby rendering this approach to the problem as self-defeating as the evangelical one), but that it also includes a significant amount of gamers. For those of us, like me, who don’t agree, this attitude is enormously problematic and irritating. Effectively I’m being told that just because most of my favourite games aren’t mathematically rigorous, I’m a second-class citizen in the gaming world. Can you possibly imagine an attitude that’s more potentially divisive than that?

The problem is exacerbated because the guilty parties here are often totally unaware that what they’re doing has the potential to make people damn angry. This isn’t the social blindness exhibited by the evangelicals but a much simpler inability to re-read what they’ve written and see that if you’re on the other side of the fence it sounds tremendously patronising. I’m not going to go on at length about that because that particular inability to appreciate how other people might read your proclamations is something that I’m certainly as guilty of as the next man, even if I do strive not to be a gaming snob.

It’s also, of course, the root cause of fun-murdering, that contemptible attitude which forgets that “fun” is a subjective experience which differs between different people and insists that only games which are intellectually demanding can possibly be worthwhile. This wilfully ignores the fact that most people play games to relax and have a good time. And if you can recognise that recreation is the primary purpose of game playing to the majority of people the world over, you should also be able to see that this leads us directly back to where we came in: wanting to have fun all the time is immature and the perception of immaturity is embarrassing. This is, of course, a square circle: nearly everyone plays games or wants to have fun some of the time, so judging a game player simply because of the manner in which they choose to have fun is hypocritical. Surely this - or a variation on it that doesn’t use the word “hypocritical” - is actually the best way to bridge the credibility gap? Help other people to see that we’re just doing the same as everyone else but in a different way? And in doing so we can, hopefully, not only help improve the image of gaming as a hobby but put down gaming snobbery once and for all: a loop of positive feedback that can do nothing but good for gamers and non-gamers alike.



Matt is the founder of Fortress: Ameritrash. He is also a regular columnist for Board Game News.

Click here for more board game articles by Matt.

Comments (51)add comment

Hatchling said:

Hatchling
...
Great article. You tie together a great number of threads.

Part of the underlying problem here is that people can be rather obsessive in how they police the boundary between children and adulthood. Grown ups, unfortunately if not shamefully, don't tend to like sitting with the kids if there is no room at the adult table. I remember when I was a small kid some of my adult cousins were mocked by my more ignorant relatives for not minding sitting with us. And of course the adult who spends too much time with children (what counts as "too much" varies depending on the context of course) causes eyebrows to raise and can trigger all sorts of other fears about the boundary of child and adult being crossed. If an adult fails to be a sufficiently successful "adult" according to conventional social standards (is under-employed, unmarried, doesn't have a mortgage, is living the life of a student or artist or activist, doesn't have children etc) is often dismissed as being childish ("when will so and so ever grow up?"). What I'm trying to get at in these examples is that whenever there is a blurring of child and adult, it is more often than not seen as something anti-social or wrong. At least in my city (which is admitted more tightly wound than most) the spirit of Peter Pan (as developed in that awesome film, Finding Neverland) has been crushed for the general public.

Boardgaming -- and geekiness generally -- enters into that taboo social zone where the spirit of childhood lives on in an adult world. My attitude to this is is to criticize those who police that boundary too obsessively. Obsessions are always self-propelling. There is a huge industry (and, I would add, school systems) that aims to hurry kids as quickly as possible through their childhoods, and this is matched by other currents that excessively romanticize childhood. All this fuels a lot of tension and pumps out premature adults and overly mature children who don't know how to play with others very well.
February 08, 2010

volnon said:

volnon
...

I am happy to say that the few times I was able to get a non-gamer to sit down to a board game with me they loved the experience and, although they may have never bought a board game afterwards, they at least had a much better attitude about the hobby, and were open to a game in the future.

But there is no way in hell I am going to try to have a sit-down game with all the people I meet who doesn't respect the hobby. The best I can do is say a few words about what goes into the entire interest of the hobby, and leave it at that. Sometimes I don't even bother doing that. You can usually tell the person you are talking to has as much interest in board games as he/she would in how to re-rewire a house. Therefore, for many people, my hobby is one of those things I don't talk about. Not out of shame, but because the other party just won't "get it". Why should I waste my time? I have a game of "Claustrophobia" waiting for me at the house!

February 08, 2010

mjl1783 said:

mjl1783
...
Some people, most people, don’t like and/or aren’t interested in games and that’s fine by me.


Not true. Not in my experience, anyway. Of the people I know, very few of them aren't interested in games. What they're not interested in is games as a hobby.

Hell, even my mom drags Apples to Apples to every damn family gathering we have. I get invited to Trivial Pursuit night all the time. Younger couples I know are constantly calling me up to see if I want to stop by and play Jenga, Scene It, or some traditional card game. People with whom I've played some of my nerd games often ask me to bring Mall of Horror or Ca$h & Gun$ over, unless I picked up something good in the meantime that is.

Jesus, even of my regular game group, only about % of us are hobbyists. Only half of us even own any games, aside from maybe a copy of Monopoly, and only half of us that do own more than one or two nerdy board games.

Is it that these people aren't gamers? Hell no. They show up week after week, play whatever's on the table, no matter how complex, and enjoy it. They just leave the games at game night, that's all. They don't run out and buy a bunch of games. They don't go telling everyone they know how awesome these games are, and how much better they are than Sorry!. They don't sign on for the whole nine nerdy yards. They play, though, and that's all that matters.

That's what The Hobby needs to get through it's thick skull, the distinction between gamers and hobbyists. That's why the term "hobby games" itself has got to fucking go. It's elitist, snobbish, exclusive, and wraps every title not published by Hasbro into a "culture" it doesn't need to be associated with.
February 08, 2010

KingPut said:

KingPut
...
Matt, you packed in 2 weeks of stuff with this article. I guess it's a little easier when you don't have a weekly deadline.

Inside the gaming world, I wear my immature second-class citizen in the gaming world badge proudly.
February 08, 2010

InfinityMax said:

InfinityMax
...
It is kind of funny that hobby gamers feel a need to proselytize. I'm also a hobby woodworker, but I never hear about the woodworkers who are trying to convert other people to learn how to use a drill press and table-mounted router. Sure, games are less acceptable than watching hockey, but then, hockey fans are also seldom seen attempting to convert the masses. They hang out with other hockey fans and talk hockey with people who know hockey.

I frankly don't understand the conversion concept at all. I have a friend whose hobby is fixing old computers to do stuff they weren't built to do. It's fun to see what he can do with a computer, but he never says, 'man, this weekend, we should try find a good computer project for you.' Because he knows that what I find fun and what he finds fun are different things, and that's totally cool. We have different hobbies.

So I think the reason we try to bring new people into the fold is because we're a little self-conscious about our hobbies. If we played golf and shot handguns for hobbies, we would probably brag about it. But any time you have games that require the consumption of a 40 page manual, and we understand terms like 'area-control mechanic' and 'resource management', there's a considerable nerd factor.

I embrace it, but I don't preach it. I don't hide it, and I talk about it when it comes up, but I've never tried to recruit anyone. I don't have a problem with nerdy. Though that might be why I smoke and drink dark beer - I may just be overcompensating.
February 08, 2010

Ancient_of_MuMu said:

Ancient_of_MuMu
...
I think the conversion concept comes from the fact that it is something that you can't do on your own. You can only play with other people so the more people who play games you like the more chance you have of playing them.
February 08, 2010

mads b. said:

mads b.
...
I preach. A bit. But that's because in my experience most people actually like playing games. And since I think games is a great way to spend time with other people (and because I have a lot of games) I don't mind suggesting things.

For instance I was in Afghanistan a couple of years ago to perform for the Danish soldiers. I brought Blokus Duo just in case me and my fellow comedian had some downtime (we sure did) and it was an instant hit. And not only with my colleague, but also with a couple of the soldiers who saw us playing.

What I'm trying to say is that lots of people actually like games. Almost everybody I know has been in a Risk club and I don't doubt for a second that they'd like to play one of the many cool, new Risk variant.
February 08, 2010

MattDP said:

MattDP
...
Boardgaming -- and geekiness generally -- enters into that taboo social zone where the spirit of childhood lives on in an adult world


This is a fantastically astute observation and right on the money too, I reckon, as to precisely why it seems so embarrassing to have to admit to doing something that's largely perceived as a children's activity. After all, plenty of people do immature things some of the time but they don't get tarred with the same brush as we do.

What they're not interested in is games as a hobby.


Whilst I think what you're saying is largely true, I'm going to defend my original statement on personal grounds: in my experience people aren't generally interested in games. And it's true: I seem to have an unerring ability to pick up friends and family members for whom even standard common-or-garden family games are a painful chore. Which is an unfortunate ability for a game hobbyist to have but nevertheless, it tends to colour my perception of what people outside the hobby think of it.

So I think the reason we try to bring new people into the fold is because we're a little self-conscious about our hobbies.


Exactly. And we're self-conscious because it's so often labelled as a child's activity.
February 08, 2010

mjl1783 said:

mjl1783
...
It is kind of funny that hobby gamers feel a need to proselytize. I'm also a hobby woodworker, but I never hear about the woodworkers who are trying to convert other people to learn how to use a drill press and table-mounted router.

That's because you don't need other people for woodworking.

I have a friend whose hobby is fixing old computers to do stuff they weren't built to do. It's fun to see what he can do with a computer, but he never says, 'man, this weekend, we should try find a good computer project for you.' Because he knows that what I find fun and what he finds fun are different things...

Nope. It's because he doesn't need you.

So I think the reason we try to bring new people into the fold is because we're a little self-conscious about our hobbies. If we played golf and shot handguns for hobbies, we would probably brag about it. But any time you have games that require the consumption of a 40 page manual, and we understand terms like 'area-control mechanic' and 'resource management', there's a considerable nerd factor.

If your hobby was making drawings of the Care Bears fucking the My Little Ponies, you'd probably be self-conscious about that, but I doubt you'd feel the need to proselytize to make up for it. Probably because you wouldn't need anyone else to help you do it, and therefore, nobody else would need to know.
February 08, 2010

Sagrilarus said:

Sagrilarus
...

Fantasy Football and its brethren are boardgames that moves about $1Bn dollars each year. There's plenty of interest when the packaging is correct. What remains is the stigma. Maybe we should get a secret handshake or a lapel pin or something.

Preaching is best done from the pulpit. Wait for them to step into the atrium before speaking.

S.

February 08, 2010

InfinityMax said:

InfinityMax
...
Good point, MJL. Games require multiple participants. I guess that makes sense. I have lots of friends who play games, though, so I just play games with them.

And like several people have said, it's not like people don't play games. They just don't do it as often as we do.
February 08, 2010

jtabler said:

jtabler
...
Avid book readers or movie watchers are always trying to get me to read or watch some movie that I'll never read or see. When my eyes glaze over and they realize that I'll never see the movie, they'll go on with the entire long synopsis. People that play "disc golf" or recreational sports are always trying to get new people to play.

I believe that all hobbies that fall into this accessible "entertainment" or "recreation" category end up on the gospel block. It's not like a personal hobby that relies on honing a skill e.g. Knitting, woodworking, playing an instrument, writing, art, etc. They all have a path from apprentice to master. That's why the overweight, non-sporty looking person will never be invited to the after work softball game. They expect you to understand the game and be capable. You'll never be invited to a jam session if you don't play an instrument. However, I bet if you are fit and sporty or you play an instrument, you get invites all the time to the above.

However, there is a difference between playing any of the hobby games and turning it into your hobby by following development, tracking your plays, talking to experts, blogging on F:AT, writing a review, knowing the lingo, leading a game group, etc. I expect people to play games and take an interest in "good games", but I never expect them to be the gateway to the games. That role is mine amongst my non-gamer friends and family. In the same respect, my movie nerd friend will always select a great movie 'cause he knows what I like. However, I don't know how much time or "hobby knowledge" went into the selection. He's a total movie snob.

I definitely agree with the elitist intellect crap. It's all entertainment. However, I'll be a little elitist and say it's more stimulating than many books, movies, sports, or TV. However, it sure is hell isn't doing a body good like sports. For many, it certainly isn't as de-stressing like books, TV, or movies.
February 08, 2010

Stephen Avery said:

Stephen Avery
...
This reputation for immaturity seems to be unique to our corner of the hobby and seems to be a uniquely embarrassing thing to have to admit to.


Not me. I revel in my immaturity.

Steve"Manchild"Avery
February 08, 2010

mjl1783 said:

mjl1783
...
Good point, MJL. Games require multiple participants. I guess that makes sense. I have lots of friends who play games, though, so I just play games with them.

And you don't feel compelled to try and convert the non-believers. Funny how that works out, huh?

Why, it's as if one's tendency to evangelize might be inversely proportionate to the number of regular, willing players he calls friends.
February 08, 2010

Notahandle said:

Notahandle
...
I'm not sure that you can distinguish between the snobbery and the evangelism; at different times I've thought one a subset of the other, only to conclude that it's probably just a huge overlap between the two. Which reminded me of TOS. So I had to laugh at the "only those with the intellectual capacity of Bobby Fischer can possibly enjoy it" line. Because many of them are on a par with his current intellectual capacity...

And I don't agree that they're "totally unaware that what they’re doing has the potential to make people damn angry". I think they just don't care because they are absolutely certain that they're right.
February 08, 2010

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
...
This is good stuff, a lot of ideas that I've had myself brought together under one roof.

One point about the evangelizing crap is that there does seem to be a need amongst many games hobbyists to somehow validate what they're spending so much time and money on, to make it appear that blowing hundreds of dollars and hiding credit card bills from the spouse is somehow in pursuit of some kind of intellectual or "higher" activity. Part of that is finding acceptance and empathy with a larger group that is doing the same thing. As has been pointed out, tabletop games require others, so the whole "recruitment drive" thing makes at least some sense. But I think it also has to do with creating a reassuring environment where fundamentally childish, immature behavior is OK'd.

Because ultimately, no matter how many pages of rules are there, playing games is childish. It doesn't matter if the game is some elitist Eurogame garbage with a fake historical gloss. Sorry, it's ALL kid's stuff. And that's OK with me, because I'm a kid at heart and I think it's totally acceptable for adults to enjoy play and remain engaged with cihldhood. But to the larger culture, it will always be the province of kids. Apart from very social games that are intended as mixers. Even MONOPOLY is regarded as a kid's thing.

I think it's correct that most people _like_ playing games, but most people are not interested in the time and commitment involved in the hobby aspect of them. And I completely understand that because that's how it should balance out. Unless your career is games, then games should be a pastime, not a lifestyle. When games become your lifestyle, you're a fucking loser. When games are how you identify yourself and are the sole medium by which you can connect with other people and life in general, you're a fucking loser.

And when people without a better understanding of the hobby see even reasonable, balanced people like us reading the 50 page rulebooks, playing the 8 hour games...what they see are those things. They believe that we're overly committed to a hobby, and that we're spending too much of our lives focused on games. I completely understand how that looks to an outsider.

A couple of days ago I saw a commercial on TV for some mass-market party game. I think it was PICTIONARY or something of that ilk. It was brilliant, and it was the best piece of marketing I've ever seen for a game product. In the ad, there's a social gathering of six or seven people. The host of the party walks into the living room- and here's the kicker- unwraps the game from shrinkwrap and the next couple of shots we see them playing it. That communicates A LOT to the non-gaming public. That tells them that this is a game that you can buy and play with no commitment to "learning" it at all. That says all of your friends will give this a chance even if they've never seen it before. But it also says that the game is part of a social gathering but it is not the focus of the social gathering- it's brought into it, not centered around it. That's huge stuff, I've never seen a game sold quite like that. And really, I don't think I've ever seen a product removed from shrinkwrap in an ad before.

That's all tangenital, but it does illustrate that what games are for non-hobbyists is something vastly different than what we've come to expect.
February 08, 2010

SanIlDefanso said:

SanIlDefanso
...
Great, great article Matt.

It is my experience that most people enjoy games well enough, though not as a hobby. I think a key issue when I play with non-hobbyists is that a lot of people have a fear of losing. This isn't so much because they are so competitive, but more because if they flounder in a game, they find it embarrassing. I'm amazed at the number of people I have played something like Ticket To Ride with, who are always asking for strategic advice, and always apologize for playing badly. I am amazed at this, because I simply don't care if I get leveled in a game. I mean, losing sucks, but I'm not embarrassed or anything. Most people are, apparently.

As to the "missionary" phase, I think most hobbyists go through that with games. I know I did. I'm mostly past it now, but I was pretty amazed that games like Settlers of Catan even existed, and if I enjoyed them, certainly others would, right? Turns out most people don't NEED any games beyond Scrabble, Monopoly, and Taboo. I did, most people don't.

And honestly, who wants to be that guy who's always droning on and on about his hobby? No one, that's who. I love to act and direct on the stage, but really, no one cares about that.
February 08, 2010

Merkles said:

Merkles
...
Sag said:
Fantasy Football and its brethren are boardgames that moves about $1Bn dollars each year. There's plenty of interest when the packaging is correct. What remains is the stigma. Maybe we should get a secret handshake or a lapel pin or something.


Great point, Sag. It actually ties together points from last week discussion on technology and boardgames. Fantasy baseball had been Rotisserie Baseball to start--basically some geeks around a restaurant figuring stuff out. It had become popular--as popular as a geek subculture gets (much like Strat-O-Matic had been). But, all the stats were done by hand and it was relatively obscure---UNTIL all the drudgery of the stats was automated by computer and run cheaply so anyone can play it. It was no longer geeky (though you can certainly be geeky and time consuming about it--I know I am with fantasy baseball)...and it was accessible. It wasn't like a secret club any longer--and the growth was phenomenal.
February 08, 2010

MattDP said:

MattDP
...
Because ultimately, no matter how many pages of rules are there, playing games is childish


Indeed. This is what I was alluding to in the final paragraph: of course playing games is childish but when you stop and think about it the majority of leisure time activity choices that people, especially men, make are pretty childish, but they're just not tarred with the brush of "children's activities". The best defence to the accusation is to accept it, and then find out what childish things the questioner likes to indulge in: there's bound to be some.
February 08, 2010

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
...
That almost gets to a larger cultural and gender issue, that men are less mature and more childish than women. Some would declare that some men's love of power tools, golf, or cars is childlike, and I'd agree- the level of interest some folks in things like that can be very immature. There's plenty of men out there who hem and haw about having to change a diaper or actually engage their wives in converation but have no compunction spending hours and hours on a golf course or spending tons of money on some hobby or another.

So yeah, I think you're right, that some things just don't get hit with the "kid's stuff" tag when there's little to differentiate the behavior patterns.

It does speak a lot to the maturity of nerds though when so many care SO FUCKING MUCH about board games (or TV shows, or comic books, or whatever)- but almost nothing about their health, hygiene, or social acclimation. It's hard _not_ to see that as childish.
February 08, 2010

Notahandle said:

Notahandle
...
I disagree that playing games (or any other activity) is inherently childish. With that attitude it'll never lose the mainstream dismissive pigeon-holing. For me, it's the persons approach that makes it childish or not.
February 08, 2010

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
...
Adrian, playing RACE FOR THE GALAXY is childish. I'm sorry. No attitude will ever change that. The fact that players go "peeoo! peeoo!" while staring at another player's card layout to alleviate the boredom doesn't help.
February 08, 2010

Notahandle said:

Notahandle
...
Taking your card game example, why isn't Bridge regarded as childish?
February 08, 2010

Jack Hooligan said:

Jack Hooligan
...
Unless your career is games, then games should be a pastime, not a lifestyle. When games become your lifestyle, you're a fucking loser. When games are how you identify yourself and are the sole medium by which you can connect with other people and life in general, you're a fucking loser.


I'd be careful with statements like this. This touches close to the 'man-child' thread we had a year or so back that touched a nerve with a lot of folks. Looking at the amount of time folks post here, the amount of boardgames they seem to play, the amount of videogames they seem to play, the amount of genre books and movies they seem to see, it'd be hard-pressed not to attach your label to nearly everyone of the posters on this site.

Myself excluded of course. smilies/smiley.gif

I've thought about a forum sticky that was complimentary to the "What board/video/movie" threads called "How you been living?" which would essentially give us opportunities to share cool things we've done outside the realm of nerd-dome, but when I posted the thread about the Warrior Dash thing only Shellhead cared. (He also manned up very well during the man-child thread I might add.) Also, if we were to start talking about other things (politics, relgion, etc) I'm not sure how well it would go down.

Perhaps it is best to keep this 'all things nerdy' which is fine, but if you and your fellow posters are on here all day talking about games and spending all evening playing various types of games, then this is not simply a pastime regardless of how well you think you get on 'in the meat'.
February 08, 2010

johnnyrobo said:

johnnyrobo
...

Walking Sports Database Scorns Walking Sci-Fi Database

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38664

"What is that all about? Imaginary elves and shit running around doing imaginary things and winning imaginary gold?" Moreland asked. "I mean, I could see playing D&D when you're 12 years old, but this guy's got to be at least 25. It's pathetic."

As of press time, Moreland's online ESPN.com fantasy-football team, DaJerseyJintz, was 4-1.

February 08, 2010

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
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Taking your card game example, why isn't Bridge regarded as childish?

Because people play it in the nude, therefore it's an adult game.

Seriously though, it's because Bridge has been culturally accepted into the mainstream as have Chess and Poker. Who knows why some games make the cut and others don't, but there it is. Some of it has to do with the universality of these games. There is a percieved difference between playing a game with fairly non-represenative pieces or standard cards and playing games with plastic figures of dragons or cards with pictures of spaceships on them. No one in the mainstream culture will likely ever take playing games with plastic dragons seriously. And probably, they shouldn't. Hell, I usually don't.

Looking at the amount of time folks post here, the amount of boardgames they seem to play, the amount of videogames they seem to play, the amount of genre books and movies they seem to see, it'd be hard-pressed not to attach your label to nearly everyone of the posters on this site.

Look, I don't really know most of the people here, apart from Avery, Branham, Aaron, Robert Martin, and the folks in Atlanta. I've met Ken B. and Malloc a couple of times. Most of how I know the folks here are through what they post here at F:AT, and also how they post it. No doubt, we all love and are passionate about games and other "nerd" pursuits. But I also think that, at least from what I do know of people here, that F:AT seems to be a pretty well-rounded bunch. All of us know when to take games seriously, and when to drop back and acknowledge that it's just all bullshit for fun. We also have a lot of interests. The fact of the matter is that if you were to take a sample of the larger hobby gaming population, you'd probably see that "our kind" of gamer is more common than the man-child freak/obsessive/loser. However, that doesn't mean there's not PLENTY of them out there. So yeah, I'm generalizing. But they fucking deserve it.

I'm probably more invested in gaming than many people here are. I've got two major games writing commitments (and possibly a third in the works)in addition to whatever I do here at F:AT. I game once a week, which is more than some folks get in a month. That doesn't include video games, which can be 12 hours or more a week. But still, I regard games as a pastime. They don't identify me, they don't inform every aspect of my life, and I'm not obsessed or continually absorbed in them. They're a pastime, something to do when I have downtime from other life interests and responsiblities.

But still, I love games, and I love talking about them...but Jack, if you and I were to ever meet up I'd probably be more interested in talking to you about shows in Atlanta during the 90s than games. Hell, when Zev was here I think he and I talked more about New York, food, and movies than games.


February 08, 2010

Space Ghost said:

Space Ghost
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Yeah...I concur that it all pretty childish. For shit's sake, I was painting some MEQ figures the other night -- and my wife laughs every time because it is the same scene as in the 40 Year Old Virgin. For the most part I don't care, because almost everyone has some hobby that can be considered childish. It's just a hobby, and it doesn't define me as a person. It shines through on this site because no one cares about what I do in real life (statistics, counter-terrorism, blah, blah, blah....; I would talk about that on the appropriate forum), and even better, I don't expect them to. If you think the nerd culture is bad surrounding boardgames and hobbies, just delve into the bowels of academics where people SERIOUSLY define themselves by their research -- that is much more exhausting then anything seen here or on BGG.

Is this hyperbole: Do we really know of people who are hiding credit card receipts and/or game shipments from their wives? Seems over the top to me, but in this hobby, I wouldn't be surprised.
February 08, 2010

Ancient_of_MuMu said:

Ancient_of_MuMu
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Yeah...I concur that it all pretty childish. For shit's sake, I was painting some MEQ figures the other night -- and my wife laughs every time because it is the same scene as in the 40 Year Old Virgin.

My wife was quite pissed that at the end of the 40 Year Old Virgin that he had to give all his toys to become an adult. It says a lot about the mainstream view of gamers and basically is a neat cultural reference to the whole point of this article.
February 08, 2010

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
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Is this hyperbole: Do we really know of people who are hiding credit card receipts and/or game shipments from their wives? Seems over the top to me, but in this hobby, I wouldn't be surprised.

Work in hobby retail and you see it ALL the time. I'm not making it up.

I had this one guy who would come in with a duffle bag. He'd put his entire purchase in the duffle bag, which he stored in the car. He would gradually move stuff from the duffle bag into his closet so that the $100 worth of stuff he bought almost every other week would go unnoticed.

I had a couple of men ask me what would show up on their credit card statement if they used one for payment. They wanted to make sure it didn't say "games" anywhere.

Then there were the miniatures guys that would buy miniatures and throw the packages away in the trash can out in front of the store to avoid detection.

Another tactic was the "lunch break" purchase...guys would come in from work and buy stuff...making jokes about how it was the only time they could get out to the store without their wives/girlfriends finding out.

It wasn't just the grown men though, I saw kids doing this kind of stuff too. Being on the GA Tech campus, I had a lot of students spending tuition money or money sent from home for living expenses. There was one kid I knew who blew TEN THOUSANDS DOLLARS of tuition money not just at my store but elsewhere. He sure did have a MIGHTY nice set of Rackham miniatures. And two WARMACHINE armies. And a shitload of Vallejo paints, brushes, and other accessories. And he ate dollar hot dogs from Ikea almost every day.

If you think the nerd culture is bad surrounding boardgames and hobbies, just delve into the bowels of academics where people SERIOUSLY define themselves by their research -- that is much more exhausting then anything seen here or on BGG.

Oh yeah, definitely...but I still think there's a vast difference between having your head up your ass while you're doing some kind of high-level research (whether practical or academic) and being massively concerned with board games.
February 08, 2010

Space Ghost said:

Space Ghost
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Often times, I am just thankful that Michael has seen the "underbelly" of this hobby so I know what to avoid -- which is now apparently conventions and game stores.
February 08, 2010

InfinityMax said:

InfinityMax
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Unless your career is games, then games should be a pastime, not a lifestyle. When games become your lifestyle, you're a fucking loser. When games are how you identify yourself and are the sole medium by which you can connect with other people and life in general, you're a fucking loser.
Dammit!
My wife was quite pissed that at the end of the 40 Year Old Virgin that he had to give all his toys to become an adult.
I was also pissed, but mostly because I thought 'what kind of heartless bitch would make a guy sell a collection that awesome!'
February 08, 2010

Space Ghost said:

Space Ghost
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Oh yeah, definitely...but I still think there's a vast difference between having your head up your ass while you're doing some kind of high-level research (whether practical or academic) and being massively concerned with board games.

At the end of the day, both people have their heads up their ass. The bigger message is likely "don't be defined by one thing" -- in my book, you are just as shitty of a person if you define yourself with games or with your job. Both usually are detrimental to personal relationships.
February 08, 2010

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
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Oh, I'd absolutely agree with that 100%. That's the key, really...make games _part_ of your lifestyle...but not all of it like Matt apparently does. Or Steve Avery.

It's the obsessives who have lead to mainstream cultural jokes like the 40 YEAR OLD VIRGIN thing...but then, think about SHAUN OF THE DEAD...he doesn't give up hanging out with friends and playing video games, he just grows up and it becomes part of his larger life instead of it BEING his life.
February 08, 2010

mjl1783 said:

mjl1783
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But I think it also has to do with creating a reassuring environment where fundamentally childish, immature behavior is OK'd.

Childish, immature behavoir is so widely accepted in American society it isn't even funny. We're talking about a world where Avatar is a Best Picture nominee, Grand Theft Auto is often regarded as a work of art, and women leave their fucking husbands for their World of Warcraft guild leaders. Sure, there are a few folks who may look at you funny while you walk up to them sporting a Jackass T-shirt, but they're fewer and farther between every day.

If there's some urgent need for board gamers to validate their choice of childish behavior, it's because their choice of childish behavior is being arbitrarily exluded from the realm of "acceptable" immaturity.

But to the larger culture, it will always be the province of kids. Apart from very social games that are intended as mixers.

Yeah, because Scrabble and Trivial Pursuit have always been hot ticket Christmas items for kids.

And when people without a better understanding of the hobby see even reasonable, balanced people like us reading the 50 page rulebooks, playing the 8 hour games...what they see are those things. They believe that we're overly committed to a hobby, and that we're spending too much of our lives focused on games. I completely understand how that looks to an outsider.

I had a friend come over the other day, a guy who rarely plays video games even, and he saw my game shelf. After the standard "Holy shit man, you've got a lot of games. I didn't even know this many games existed" reaction, he said he used to like Risk, and that if I had it, we should get together with some of the other guys we know and play it. I told him I had the new one, and that he'd probably like it because it was streamlined so that it doesn't take 8 hours to play. Surprisingly, instead of being excited, his reaction was pretty much "Why the hell would you want it not to take 8 hours? The whole point of Risk is that it's an all-day marathon."

Judging from the perennial popularity of Risk, and how lukewarm most of The Hobby is towards it, I have to assume this dude is far from alone in being more than happy to sit down and play a board game for 8 hours given the right circumstances.

I think what people see when you're reading your 50 page rulebook is exactly what they'd see if you were thumbing through the gargantuan manual for some old PC strategy game; which is you putting a lot of effort into something that's overly complicated and boring.

That communicates A LOT to the non-gaming public. That tells them that this is a game that you can buy and play with no commitment to "learning" it at all.

That's because the game is Pictionary, and everyone already knows how to play it. They don't say "Oh look, Dave's got a new game!" in the commercial. They say "Oh look, Dave has Pictionary!" Besides, harldy anyone uses the damn board and dice in that game anyway. They just pick cards, draw pictures, and keep score on a slip of paper.

But it also says that the game is part of a social gathering but it is not the focus of the social gathering- it's brought into it, not centered around it. That's huge stuff, I've never seen a game sold quite like that. And really, I don't think I've ever seen a product removed from shrinkwrap in an ad before.

In other words, it shows that Hasbro's betting your average consumer looks at games basically the same way we do.

Removing the shrinkwrap was kinda' cool, but what's more telling is what they didn't show, which is Dave throwing the damn thing the garbage a month later. That's why These Games of Ours will never be These Games of Everyone's. To most people, board games are disposable items. They're purchased specifically for the gathering at which they're going to be played, and completely forgotten about afterwards. Kind of like a bottle of liquor, or a big bag of Chex Mix.

That's all tangenital, but it does illustrate that what games are for non-hobbyists is something vastly different than what we've come to expect.

I think it affirms what I've been saying for a long time now. People don't necessarily have a distaste for board games, they just aren't up for any sort of investment in them, especially monetary investment. If SoC was $15, it just might give Monopoly a run for its money. As long as it's $40, this ain't going to happen when your average consumer isn't expecting to actually play the game more than a few times.

Indeed. This is what I was alluding to in the final paragraph: of course playing games is childish but when you stop and think about it the majority of leisure time activity choices that people, especially men, make are pretty childish, but they're just not tarred with the brush of "children's activities".

Nobody with a functioning brain would look at Twilight Struggle and tell you it's a kids' game.

If "hobby" board games are, in fact, widely regarded as childish (and I'm not necessarily sure that they are), it's because the tiny number of them anyone's really aware of are about silly, childish shit. Video games used to be regarded as kids' toys, and when they were, the most popular ones were about cartoon plumbers jumping on mushrooms and kicking turtle shells. Once the games about beating up hookers and running households got to be the best selling titles, that perception changed.
February 08, 2010

InfinityMax said:

InfinityMax
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So, what do we have to do to get a board game about hookers and blow? Or the Prestige Worldwide version, Boats and Hos. I would play either one.
February 08, 2010

mjl1783 said:

mjl1783
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So, what do we have to do to get a board game about hookers and blow? Or the Prestige Worldwide version, Boats and Hos. I would play either one.

As soon as we can get all the damn Christians out of The Hobby. That's the real problem, I say.
February 08, 2010

Mr Skeletor said:

Mr Skeletor
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From the sounds of it a lot of you are sheep.
Name me a hobby that isn't childish. Stamps? Cars? Music? Fishing? Football? Movies? Jumping out of aeroplanes? Getting shitfaced on weekends? It's all the same shit. And women are no better, the magazines they read are just another form of highschool gossip.
I find it a little ironic that Michael is crapping on about maturity while displaying a picture of a classic punk figure. Shouldn't you have grown out of that by now, you tattooed video gamer you.

You know what's considered adult? Work. And work can suck my fucking balls. Just this morning I was telling a workmate how much I hate boring douchebags that talk about work on the morning train. Get a fucking life already.

So what if painting MEQ figures is childish. Logically so is painting on Canvas then. Just do and talk about whatever makes you happy and don't worry about what other people think. Dudes around my work know I like boardgames, big fucking deal. My boss loves diablo, the BIPS manager collects are repairs model trains, another bunch of dudes play Golf. At least we have shit to talk about apart from bitching about work.


I must say I'm surprised Matt said Miniature games and RPGs are more acceptable to the mainstream than boardgames, might be a country thing.
February 08, 2010

Mr Skeletor said:

Mr Skeletor
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My wife was quite pissed that at the end of the 40 Year Old Virgin that he had to give all his toys to become an adult.
I was also pissed, but mostly because I thought 'what kind of heartless bitch would make a guy sell a collection that awesome!'


Love the flick, but REALLY hate that aspect of the ending as it contradicts the entire message the film is going for, and doesn't even seem to realise it.
Labyrinth had the opposite problem.
February 08, 2010

Ancient_of_MuMu said:

Ancient_of_MuMu
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I had this one guy who would come in with a duffle bag. He'd put his entire purchase in the duffle bag, which he stored in the car. He would gradually move stuff from the duffle bag into his closet so that the $100 worth of stuff he bought almost every other week would go unnoticed.

I had a couple of men ask me what would show up on their credit card statement if they used one for payment. They wanted to make sure it didn't say "games" anywhere.

This is just fucked up and says a lot more about their relationships than the interest in collecting games (either their wife doesn't value him spending money on things important to them or they don't value the things the wife feels they need to spend money on). One of the most important things my wife and I did soon after we were married was set aside a small amount of money each week ($25) that was ours and went into our own bank account and we could spend on what we wanted and never had to justify what we spent it on to anyone.

According to Virginia Wolfe everyone (but particularly women in a male dominated society) needs a space and an income of their own to truly flourish as a person.
February 08, 2010

Space Ghost said:

Space Ghost
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MuMu -- that is exactly what my wife and I do -- she usually buys shoes and scarfs and what not. I buy games or the occasional power tool. I think it is an excellent system.

Skeletor -- I agree. I really don't give a shit about what people think. I play games because they are fun. I paint MEQ dudes because I enjoy it. I don't play golf all damn day because I usually get too drunk and pissed off at the ball -- different strokes for different folks. For even more childish behavior, I see Moss Man is on the horizon and Grizzlor looks pretty cool.
February 08, 2010

Notahandle said:

Notahandle
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Michael Barnes wrote:
"it's because Bridge has been culturally accepted into the mainstream"
Then I submit to m'learned friend that a game isn't childish simply because it's a game.

"There is a percieved difference between playing a game with fairly non-represenative pieces or standard cards and playing games with plastic figures of dragons or cards with pictures of spaceships on them."
Then should we conclude that abstract games are less childish? And that you're suggesting it's the imagery that makes it childish? In which case, should not fantasy and sci-fi (but not SF! smilies/wink.gif ) films and books be deemed childish by the same logic?
February 08, 2010

Michael Barnes said:

Michael Barnes
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Childish, immature behavoir is so widely accepted in American society it isn't even funny. We're talking about a world where Avatar is a Best Picture nominee, Grand Theft Auto is often regarded as a work of art, and women leave their fucking husbands for their World of Warcraft guild leaders. Sure, there are a few folks who may look at you funny while you walk up to them sporting a Jackass T-shirt, but they're fewer and farther between every day.

Well, we're getting at stuff that's bigger than this discussion here. What does it say about culture that punching a hooker or groin destruction jokes are more "mature" than painting miniature dragons? Point taken, but we're outside the bounds of the argument here, which is how people percieve hobby gaming and why it has practically zero credibility.

Surprisingly, instead of being excited, his reaction was pretty much "Why the hell would you want it not to take 8 hours? The whole point of Risk is that it's an all-day marathon."

That's all well and good, but invite that guy over to all-day RISK marathon and report the results. If he hangs, he might be a gamer. I'd be willing to bet that the nostalgic enthusiasm would be gone within an hour. But hell, I don't know this guy, maybe he'd be down with it.

I think what people see when you're reading your 50 page rulebook is exactly what they'd see if you were thumbing through the gargantuan manual for some old PC strategy game; which is you putting a lot of effort into something that's overly complicated and boring.

That's a good point, but what it demonstrates more than anything is how board games aren't an "immediate" form of entertainment. They require preparation and yes, work. And those things are boring to most people. Having to read a 50 page instruction book to get to fun isn't something most people actively want to do. It doesn't matter if TI3 is an incredible game filled with drama, intrigue, excitement, and good times. The buy-in is too high for most people. We know this already.

Removing the shrinkwrap was kinda' cool, but what's more telling is what they didn't show, which is Dave throwing the damn thing the garbage a month later. That's why These Games of Ours will never be These Games of Everyone's. To most people, board games are disposable items. They're purchased specifically for the gathering at which they're going to be played, and completely forgotten about afterwards. Kind of like a bottle of liquor, or a big bag of Chex Mix.

That's true. I saw that a lot at the store, actually. Small groups of college kids buying RISK or AXIS AND ALLIES for a game night...and I'd never see them again. I'd like to think that they played the living shit out of the games, but it's more likely that they were abandoned. There is a reason we see the kinds of games we do at thrift and yard sales.

I think it affirms what I've been saying for a long time now. People don't necessarily have a distaste for board games, they just aren't up for any sort of investment in them, especially monetary investment. If SoC was $15, it just might give Monopoly a run for its money. As long as it's $40, this ain't going to happen when your average consumer isn't expecting to actually play the game more than a few times.

I'd say that the time investment is more of a barrier than money- even percieved time can keep people away. If a game _looks_ complicated, no dice. I've seen people turn down TICKET TO RIDE because it looked complicated with all those little trains and cards. That's just ignorant, I know...but it shows that people make face judgments on entertainment products like this.

SETTLERS is at Toys R Us now, BTW...I was buying some baby stuff the other day and saw that they had the "Gallery Edition" for $25. It looked like absolutely zero fun next to all the brightly colored games that all practically holler "I AM FUN" at you from the shelf. I know better, but Joe Public doesn't. They see it and think "history book". They may even wonder if they need to know history to play it.

If "hobby" board games are, in fact, widely regarded as childish (and I'm not necessarily sure that they are), it's because the tiny number of them anyone's really aware of are about silly, childish shit.

Taking your TWILIGHT STRUGGLE example, I think you could definitely argue that historically themed games like that aren't themselves childish, but there's still the perception that play is equivalent to childish behavior. If Joe Public doesn't see it as childish, his next thought is why anyone would want to play a game about the Cold War and again, that whole "this is too much like learnin'!" issue comes up.

That's a good point about video games...once games became about z-grade gangster movie shit and picking out furniture...the mainstream OK'd them. Somehow, WoW slipped in there.

Name me a hobby that isn't childish. Stamps? Cars? Music? Fishing? Football? Movies? Jumping out of aeroplanes? Getting shitfaced on weekends? It's all the same shit.

Hmm...maybe where the disconnect is here is that it's not the actual pursuit that's childish, but the way one pursues it. I'd agree with that.

That being said, there's no getting around the play=kids routine. Adults are expected to play by laying out on the beach doing absolutely nothing or by drinking too much Bud Light in front of a HDTV displaying the Super Bowl. To take that time and use it to paint MEQ figures...that's going to read as childlike (let's change that from "childish" since that has a negative tone) to most people.

And it is to me, but I embrace that. I like that playing games connects me back to being a kid. I _don't_ like people that get into this hobby and are immature and _childish_ about it. It's off-balance and frankly creepy.

I find it a little ironic that Michael is crapping on about maturity while displaying a picture of a classic punk figure. Shouldn't you have grown out of that by now, you tattooed video gamer you.

Oh, I know plenty of people that "grew out" of punk, no doubt...but those were people who wanted identification, they didn't really love the music or spirit. I did grow out of wearing makeup and having a mohican, as well as wearing bullet belts and black band t-shirts almost exclusively. I no longer need to go out of my way to identify myself as a goth, a punk, a crusty, or whatever. Because I don't identify myself as those things anymore. That's maturity, not giving up on the things you love.

You know what's considered adult? Work. And work can suck my fucking balls. Just this morning I was telling a workmate how much I hate boring douchebags that talk about work on the morning train. Get a fucking life already.

I'm totally with you here...if I'm around people and they start talking about their job, I try everything possible to steer the conversation ANYWHERE else. I do not fucking care about your job, unless you're doing something REALLY awesome.

So what if painting MEQ figures is childish. Logically so is painting on Canvas then.

Don't agree at all here. One is decorating something, the other is creating something.

At least we have shit to talk about apart from bitching about work.

That's true, I'll give you that. And I will say that out of my old friends from high school, it's the people who were actually into things like gaming that stayed truest to themselves and didn't wind up strung out on coke, stuck in clerical jobs, or in miserable suburban middle-class lives with absolutely nothing to look forward to.
February 08, 2010

Space Ghost said:

Space Ghost
...
Don't agree at all here. One is decorating something, the other is creating something.

Huh...I don't know about that. I agree that my painting MEQ dudes is nothing but childish and a hobby. But, one of the things that I find irritating is "artists" who sit around and "create" stuff that contributes nothing to anything -- at least nothing beyond what my dabbing colors on a piece of plastic are doing. Until they can support themselves with their "creations", then it is a hobby; otherwise, it is just a cop out and no different than the 100s of boardgame designers who are out there "doing it themselves".

That's true, I'll give you that. And I will say that out of my old friends from high school, it's the people who were actually into things like gaming that stayed truest to themselves and didn't wind up strung out on coke, stuck in clerical jobs, or in miserable suburban middle-class lives with absolutely nothing to look forward to.

Man...I am sure that you didn't mean it like this, but this sounds like an ABC afterschool special. Truest to themselves?
February 08, 2010

ubarose said:

ubarose
...
People who behave as you have described are a little broken. Either they aren't getting the validation or respect they need from other areas of their lives, or they are a bit tweaked. I know a handful of people like this and it's not limited to board gamers.

And honestly, I don't really believe people think or care enough about any hobbies, other than their own, to even bother to decide if they think the interest is childish or not. If someone thinks a person is childish or immature, or that he has his head up his ass, it's not because the person plays board games, or paints rocks, or collects spoons, or whatever. It's because the person probably is childish or immature or has his head up his ass.
February 08, 2010

Mr Skeletor said:

Mr Skeletor
...
The problem with your argument Michael is you talk about the mainstream as if it were a thinking, living entity. It isn't, it's just a collection of trends and circumstance. For example:

That's a good point about video games...once games became about z-grade gangster movie shit and picking out furniture...the mainstream OK'd them. Somehow, WoW slipped in there.


This isn't true at all. The reason why video games became mainstream was because the generation who grew up on them are now 'the mainstream' - they are having their own kids and they have the disposable income. The Mainstream didn't suddenly decide video games were cool because it had gastas in it, its the people who thought videogames were cool that became the mainstream. Ganta games came because thats what this new mainstream audience demanded, they didn't appear in a niche market and suddenly make it mainstream.
That's why all the 80s stuff is now cool again. You don't really think it was Bay's movie alone that made Transformers once again mainstream do you?

That being said, there's no getting around the play=kids routine. Adults are expected to play by laying out on the beach doing absolutely nothing or by drinking too much Bud Light in front of a HDTV displaying the Super Bowl.


Disagree again. Google any australian based paper (especially a melb one) and you'll see headlines screaming about drunken youths and their childish behavior. Drinking is seen as childish (ironic considering children can't actually drink.) Lying on the beach? The domain of beach bums who need to grow up and get a job.

Oh, I know plenty of people that "grew out" of punk, no doubt...but those were people who wanted identification, they didn't really love the music or spirit. I did grow out of wearing makeup and having a mohican, as well as wearing bullet belts and black band t-shirts almost exclusively. I no longer need to go out of my way to identify myself as a goth, a punk, a crusty, or whatever. Because I don't identify myself as those things anymore. That's maturity, not giving up on the things you love.


Is that maturity really? Or it it just changes with time?
I know people who get their first tatt at 30. Is that Childish? My old man would say it is.
Or is it that as we change as time goes on, but not nessasarily in the same way. I cut my hair years ago, but was it because I became more mature, or was it just because I felt like a change after 7 years of long hair? If I decide to grow my hair again am I really being immature, or just once again feeling like a change?
Can a person in their 40s not discover punk and embrace it's culture? I don't see why they can't. I don't see why doing so would make them immature. Did the people who left the punk scene really 'grow out of it', or did they just get sick of it due to time?
I stopped playing boardgames for years. Did I grow out of it? Did I become immature when I picked the hobby up again 4 years ago? Or is just a case of me going through life trying different things.
February 09, 2010

mjl1783 said:

mjl1783
...
Point taken, but we're outside the bounds of the argument here, which is how people percieve hobby gaming and why it has practically zero credibility.

And I'm saying that, when your friends drop by, see TI:3 sprawled out all over your table, and think you're a big ol' fucking wierdo, it isn't because it looks like you're playing with a kids' toy. It's because you're doing something that people only every see big ol' fucking wierdos doing.

That's all well and good, but invite that guy over to all-day RISK marathon and report the results. If he hangs, he might be a gamer. I'd be willing to bet that the nostalgic enthusiasm would be gone within an hour. But hell, I don't know this guy, maybe he'd be down with it.

Well, we're not going to be testing this theory because I don't want to play Risk all day. My point is that the idea of playing a long board game is not automatically foreign and repulsive to Joe Sixpack. Risk and Monopoly are two of the best selling titles of all time, they both also take a hell of a lot longer to play than most hobby games do.

Having to read a 50 page instruction book to get to fun isn't something most people actively want to do. It doesn't matter if TI3 is an incredible game filled with drama, intrigue, excitement, and good times. The buy-in is too high for most people. We know this already.

Yes, and my point was that this attitude is not exclusive to the board game medium. Most people won't listen to a song that's more than 3 mintues long, or read a book that might require you to yank out a dictionary to look up words, either.

I'd say that the time investment is more of a barrier than money- even percieved time can keep people away. If a game _looks_ complicated, no dice. I've seen people turn down TICKET TO RIDE because it looked complicated with all those little trains and cards. That's just ignorant, I know...but it shows that people make face judgments on entertainment products like this.

I don't think this is necessarily a time issue. If someone's turning down Ticket to Ride, I'll bet a million dollars their first thought is "I won't be able to learn this." I don't even think they've given the game the opportunity to take them to "I don't want to spend the time it would take to learn this."

Frankly, I think gaming is getting along just fine without these folks. It's not that I think they're dumb or ignorant, but I just don't have any interest in sharing this pasttime with people who can't handle Ticket to Ride.

This isn't true at all. The reason why video games became mainstream was because the generation who grew up on them are now 'the mainstream' - they are having their own kids and they have the disposable income. The Mainstream didn't suddenly decide video games were cool because it had gastas in it, its the people who thought videogames were cool that became the mainstream.

This is only partially true. The soccer moms that made The Sims such a big hit didn't really grow up with video games. They may have had Pong and Pac-Man, but when these things were popular, video games were something you dropped a few quarters in at a pizza joint or a bar, not something you did around the house. Same goes for the 40 somethings that helped propel GTA to the top of the charts for god knows how long.

The kids that grew up with Atari and NES are only just now becoming the mainstream, but video games have been enjoying mainstream popularity for about 10 years now.
February 09, 2010

MattDP said:

MattDP
...
I must say I'm surprised Matt said Miniature games and RPGs are more acceptable to the mainstream than boardgames, might be a country thing.


Could be. I think a lot of people of my generation in the UK have had some sort of influence from Games Workshop, even if only indirectly.
February 09, 2010

Southernman said:

Southernman
...
I must say I'm surprised Matt said Miniature games and RPGs are more acceptable to the mainstream than boardgames, might be a country thing.

Could be. I think a lot of people of my generation in the UK have had some sort of influence from Games Workshop, even if only indirectly.

Matt's talking about the UK, and after being here for 10 years I'd have to back him totally. Boardgames are just unknown (especially around my area) compared to miniatures play. Even the small club I go along to is predominantly GW minis (WH versions and Bloodbowl) with some Flames of War, while the other club in town is the same but with standard minis wargaming of different periods as well - but no boardgames.
February 09, 2010

Notahandle said:

Notahandle
...
ubarose wrote
"If someone thinks a person is childish or immature, or that he has his head up his ass, it's not because the person plays board games, or paints rocks, or collects spoons, or whatever. It's because the person probably is childish or immature or has his head up his ass."
QFT. You said it much better than I did.

In his article Matt said snobbery and evangelism isn't good for the hobby. There's been quite a few insistent comments that the hobby is childish. So why are those posters so keen to portray the hobby in that light? How is that good for the hobby?
February 09, 2010

Hatchling said:

Hatchling
...
I my view what's bad for the hobby is the view that adulthood is a state of pedophobia, and therefore that the only credible games are the ones that have been sufficiently purged of everything other than "serious" adult themes like working, making money, pursuing scientific or intellectual curiosities and puzzles, and so on.

Douchebags aren't really a problem because they are found every hobby.
February 09, 2010

Ancient_of_MuMu said:

Ancient_of_MuMu
...
I was just thinking of an encounter I had 10 years ago and how it is relevant to this. To understand this story you have to understand the relationship Australians have to the band 'Cold Chisel'. They are the Australian band, in the way that The Beatles are the English band. If you are Australian you like Cold Chisel. You may not like song x or y, but not liking Cold Chisel is not an option as they are so embedded in our cultural heritage.

One cold winter's night my wife and I were at a party and given just about everyone else we knew was a smoker they were all outside smoking. As it was too cold to go outside without a purpose for too long, we were inside playing DJ, rummaging through our friend's CD collection and compiling a playlist. I thought a bit of classic Aussie rock always goes down well so put on a Cold Chisel song. My wife and I had our heads buried in the CD collection when someone came into the room.
"'Flame Trees'. Good choice mate." He said.
Still browsing I gave a quick "Yeah. Chisel's a great band." without looking up.
"Why don't you put on 'Cheap Wine' next?"
"Yeah Ok"
I don't know why but some noise or something caused both of us to look at him. As our heads simultaneously rose we saw a Cold Chisel belt buckle below a Cold Chisel t-shirt and topped by a Cold Chisel baseball cap.
Chisel man said to us "What CD are you playing it from?. Oh, "The Best of Cold Chisel". The best version of 'Cheap Wine' isn't on that. It's on x. Don't worry, I have it in my car. I'll just run out and grab it."
Needless to say by the time he had come back we had retreated outside to the freezing cold.

The point of this story is that creepy obsessives are incredibly offputting, it doesn't matter what they are into. I like boardgames, but if I am at a dinner party and someone other than the host suggests we play game z which they brought with them I will politely decline and do my best to get them out the door.
February 11, 2010

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