Wrath of Ashardalon Dungeons & Dragons Board Game - In Stores Now! Hot

I enjoyed Ravenloft as a role-playing setting, but _this_ is dungeon delving. Can't wait.

Someone told me that it's compatible with Ravenloft, but I'm not too certain.

I'm pretty certain it is. I sat though part of Ravenloft and it is simplified D&D 4e (which is awesome just in itself). They're using the same model they did back in the 80's to get a new generation to play D&D. I still have Dragonstrike sitting in the closet somewhere...

Steve"DungeonDelver"Avery

Dang this looks nice.

Steve, it's very possible they are using this model to lure the "retired" D&D players back as well. Nice looking set-up that can play solo? I wonder how the solo play is. I haven't played since 1984, and this really interests me.

I pre ordered my copy! Can't get enough of that plasticky goodness.

And I haven't even bought Ravenloft yet!

I must admit those Space Hulk- looking interlocking floor tiles sold me (along with the plastic)!

Both games say on their respective BGG pages that they can be played with the other.

Thanks for the heads-up, Southernman! They'll sit in a place of honor by my D&D Fantasy Adventure Boardgame sets, once I order them!

The back of the box says that campaign rules are included. I wonder if you can port them into Ravenloft. From what I've read, it looks like this is going to be a very successful series of games. I'm really looking forward to these. Probably sell all my Descent crap that never gets played because it takes so long too.

That's already happened around here (selling off Descent's to finance this line).

Also, someone pointed out on BGG, that one should open the back of Ravenloft in one tab, and the back of this in another (use the BGG images). Scroll the images to the same point on your screen and toggle between the two.

Well, I may be selling my DESCENT stuff too...I think that game's time has come and gone. Even the folks I knew that were into it heavily have abandoned it, and the last two expansions didn't seem to generate much excitement. I don't know anyone using ROAD TO LEGEND anymore.

DESCENT is fatally flawed, I've realized, because of the pacing. It's just too long for what it depicts. Robert Martin had it pegged from the beginning after the first game at AGF- "It took us four hours to walk through a couple of rooms and open three doors".

The problem, I think, is that the game is ultimately more of an optimzation exercise than any Eurogame and that is compounded by the fact that you've got four people all trying to optimize their turns collectively. I think this is why it took off in some Eurogame circles, because it's really more about working out tactical problems than it is about adventuring and dungeon-delving.

It doesn't help that the game has a million chits, cards, multiple dice types, character abilities, monster abilities, icons out the wazoo, and other things that actually add time and slow pace.

I'm really hoping that these two D&D games will be_simple_,_accessible_,and stick to basic dungeoncrawling fun. They look that way so far. I'm hoping they're at least as good as those D&D games that game out of the UK a couple of years ago, those were really great.

Descent had the opportunity of being on the shelf at a time when there were no strong dungeon-delving games in print. Everyone was looking for the next HQ or WHQ. The box of Descent _looks_ the part, but the game inside sure didn't play it. The 'Quest' games were fun and random. Like you said this was more an optimization exercise on the part of the players and the overlord.

There are many problems with Descent (too many bits, not exploring, etc), but I think the novel idea of having the gm play _against_ the players was the last tightening of the screw. All sides of the game spent turns analyzing. Used to be in HQ, if I felt it was running long, I'd skip an encounter or reduce the numbers. In Descent, you're encouraged to 'win' so the overlord spawns all that crap non-stop so you drag through each room.

In short, I felt the old crawlers were still a bit rpg like in that everyone involved just wanted to get their D&D story on but didn't have the time. Descent is not about the story. At all.

I have to agree completely Jack, the last couple of times I played DESCENT (which were like a year ago at this point) I really didn't see any narrative or sense of story at all. All I saw was a bunch of numbers and spatial/logistical problems.

The spawning is a big issue. The whole thing where you can dump a bunch of new monsters around the corner is really kind of lame. It worked OK in DOOM, but DOOM wasn't a 4-6 hour game. It was simpler, and over time I've come to think that it's actually a superior game to DESCENT.

DOOM is completely a superior game to DESCENT and, much like your favorite popular band, I've thought so for a long time before anyone else did. I kind of wonder what the DESCENT dev team was thinking. Obviously they got a lot of mileage out of the fantasy retheme but essentially they just made it easier for the heroes and added a bunch of extra crap. The number one design error, I think, was changing the Armor stat from something a divisor into a subtractor. Made it way too easy, and turned most die rolls into looking for the "X" and moving on. Completely obliterated all tension or compulsion to level up after the midpoint.

Somewhere out there is a dungeon crawl that's a lot closer to THE ADVENTURERS than DESCENT. I hope one of the two Wizards games is it.

I'm guessing the two WotC games are going to be pretty similar. So, I'd wager that either they both will be or they both won't.

I have high hopes for these as well. We haven't played as much Descent lately either....but we did play through two RtL campaigns. We may play through a Sea of Blood this fall. We play on a very quick pace, getting through a three level dungeon in 2 hours. I am usually the OL and try to play up the story....this is usually done through saving up threat to play more traps and spells and less monsters.

I have been considering selling everything off too (although now that it is all painted, I am reluctant). I might just save it for kids/nephews/nieces....would be a good summer campaign game after HQ.

"It took us four hours to walk through a couple of rooms and open three doors".

This is my biggest problem with Descent, and the reason it's so hard to get people to play. The game looks amazing, has absolutely beautiful components, and like Jack said, was the only girl at the dance at it's time of publishing. Buying the base set and the first three expansions was easily justified to myself by asking 'how could this not get played all the time?' Well, because it's just not that much fun for the overlord, and it can take hours to slog through half of a scenario with little to no payoff. And like y'all said, there's really not much of a narrative going on. That's the main reason I could never get anyone interested in a campaign. Well, that and my buddies saying 'you want us to play this three or four times?' looking at me like I was crazy.

From what I've read, these games solve all of Descents problems and shave quite a few bucks off of the buy in. Add WOTC's distribution channels to Toys r Us and the like, and the D&D brand and I think they've got a huge and damn near endlessly expandable hit on their hands. Without having played them it seems that the only advantage Descent has is that the new room tiles don't look nearly as sharp as theirs, but what are ya gonna do.

You guys notice how none of these games have pictures of kids playing them on the back anymore? I wonder if that's a marketing strategy as I'd imagine most of the folks playing aren't ecstatic looking ten year olds and no ones gonna buy a game with pictures of a bunch of old fat dudes drinking while playing it. OK, maybe I would.

I really like Descent but realize that it is fatally flawed. It is very difficult to *not* ttry to optimize your moves since the game encourages that. I can't see gicing it up though. Instead, I'm going to concentrate on 1 or 2 level mini dungeons.

Mage knight Dungeons delivers a similiar experience in half the time. It has the same choices of positioning with more of a spacehulk spawning mechanism. It could do with a few house rules but other than that it is a highly underated game.

Steve"DungeonCrawler"Avery

Ya know, I always kinda thought I really liked it, but really I think I liked it more in theory than practice. With each play I was taken aback that it wasn't much more fun. Truthfully, I never played as the heroes, which might have had something to do with it, and it's also possible that I was a terrible overlord which made the other players have a crappy time. All the complaints I've read mirror ours though, making me think it wasn't necessarily me. It just didn't deliver all the fun that it's photos and reviews promised. Way too much analysis on both sides of the board when it should have just been bashing the crap out of things. It did take a lot of willpower not to buy Sea of Blood though. I knew in my heart it would never get played, but it looked so cool...I'm a real sucker sometimes.

You guys notice how none of these games have pictures of kids playing them on the back anymore?

HA! I beat you to it Jay, I was commenting on that five years ago. Way back then, I mentioned that at BGG, how games like PUERTO RICO show stupid shit like a pile of oregano, a fishing net, scattered game components...andn no one enjoying the game at all. In fact, that semi-famous picture of me and Billy Motion playing SEA ROVERS was intended to be a parody of those pictures and I tried to get Van Overbay to put it on the box.

It is a marketing thing. Today, games are mostly played by tired old men more than kids and reminding a bunch of tubby middle-agers how far from childhood and how close they are to death (possibly Twinkie-related) is probably bad marketing.

Avery, it's very telling that the best games of DESCENT I've ever played have been the ones that I've played with you. But I've only seen you blow up twice during a game, and one of them was in DESCENT because we had a player once that was optimizing everybody's turn for them.

I do like DESCENT, and it's hard not to be excited by the production. FFG would never produce something like it today under $200. But it ultimately doesn't do what you want it to do, unless you just like the efficiency exercise angle of it. I seriously think there's a valid argument that it's more of an efficiency exercise than CAYLUS, POWER GRID, or any Eurogame out there.

RETURN TO LEGEND is still a brilliant concept, and it does a lot of really compelling things...but one thing it _didn't_ do was to make the game playable in two hour sessions, which it really needed. It still takes at least 30 minutes to get it going and three to for hours to make any headway.

I am going to sell mine, after talking about it here. I'm ready.

Ha! We had one of these guys once. Once.

It was the last game I ever played with him, and the last game of Descent as well. Maybe this game just draws those types out?

I dunno, but like Avery said, this game just really encourages that type of play. The OL is busting your balls with non-stop spawning so he can win, and you want to get this over as soon as possible so flavorful items like a dagger are _never_ used when other weapons can do more damage and help you eventually move to the next tile within the hour.

We played 2-3 hour Road to Legend sessions....mainly just limiting it to exploring one 3-level dungeon.

But see, how long would it take you to finish a RTL campaign at that rate? A year of weekly sessions? It's not worth it for the kind of game DESCENT is. For that kind of commitment and time investment, you could just play D&D and then you've got a story, character development that's more than getting a +1 sword, and more fluid and organic interaction.

I may actually do my Gameshark column this week on this subject..."The Descent of DESCENT".

Being the guy that owns all the games amongst my friends, who are casual gamers but have played just about everything over the last 25 years, playing the "Overlord/mind" was just no fun.

I never bought Descent - and I'm glad I didn't but I did buy Doom. I played it several months ago with a couple of teenagers who were really game and it just wasn't any fun for me the way it's supposed to be played.

The idea of hammering the folks that are just learning a game winds up running the risk of them losing intrest and therefore might be apprehensive on playing again. Regular board games don't have this problem because everyone knows the others starting positions etc... With this "Overlod" business it's too close to RPG for most people so the idea of inviting somone over to kill off their character early on just isn't fun.

The first game I've ever considered selling off is Doom for this reason.

Now these two titles look awesome for many reasons. Co-op play *cough- solo -cough*, quick play time (essential for non wargames) and cool bits at a decent price point.

All of the molds are done for the models. I have no idea how many they made for the mini line but I imagine they'll use them all up with new releases. It will be fairly cheap for them to keep cranking these out until they exhaust the mini line.

Crap, guys...who in the hell plays Descent as an optimization exercise? Keep it moving. Make strategy suggestions simple, and only from players in the same room as you are. Don't worry about how to 1-2-3 combo a room full of monsters, just wade in there with a badass sword, or get some clearance and magically zap their asses.

Fun murderers can ruin any game; endless optimization/AP is a hallmark of fun-murderer style play.

Sadly, Barnes is right, though...Descent, made from scratch today, would cost $200 as a boxed set. Enjoy it while you can, gentlemen.

And if Descent would cost $200, just imagine what World of Warcraft: TBG would cost. Oy...I will miss those days of cheap plasticky goodness.

Crap, guys...who in the hell plays Descent as an optimization exercise?

That's how it's designed. The OL player is doing nothing but optimizing, resource managing, and essentialy providing situational obstacles for the players to overcome by analyzing available abilities, positions, and probabilities. It'd be one thing if there was a real story attached to it all, but there isn't. Even with fun players, it bogs down to a crawl and the pace is still seriously fucked up.

These D&D games look quite cool. I may have to pick one of them up (if not both of them).

The minute I played Space Hulk, I decided that maybe Descent wasn't that great a game. It had never occurred to me that Descent was completely bloated with rules, effects, weapons, and statuses. It was so freeing to just play a game where if I was hit, I died. No tracking of effects, no furrowing of brows to read dice, and no invoking of tiny rules. In fact, I think Space Hulk is a lot more in the tactical placement realm of Descent, but it does the same thing without choking the game in rules and 5-6 hour sessions.

Descent had to happen though.

It took about 3 months...playing about 3 weeks a month. Sometimes we would make it through 2 dungeons or so. But, as Ken points out, we don't play to optimize --- the heros were pretty efficient, and I don't spawn monsters as much as I play traps, etc. Also, the rules in RtL that limits the number of spawns help quite a bit. Not that I am a big defender of Descent, but it doesn't have to be horrible....the players make a lot of the experience.

And, while it is somewhat a bullshit thing to say, but all games are built as an optimization exercise -- especially games with die rolling. Wargames are about optimization. Titan is optimization. TS is optimization. What game isn't? The problem with Descent is it is capable of optimizing over all the details....which are way too many.

I have all of Descent except for Sea of Blood. I was completely addicted for a long time, even creating a popular mod for it, Descent Quest. But ultimately, the game takes too damn long, both to set up and play. Road to Legend helps, but even then it's too much. My group also features a min maxer who drags the game out forever.

I'm hoping Ravenloft and Ashardalon get some serious table time with me.

I may actually do my Gameshark column this week on this subject..."The Descent of DESCENT".

You fucker, that was my plan! Though I was going to do it more in the context of what else people should be playing for their crawling needs. I hope you write it though, fuck Descent in it's over-long and under-fun ear. I've been saying for years that Descent is a totally worthless product; too much for a quick treasure grabbing adventure yet no where near as much to offer as a D&D crawl, especially now with the delves that came out a couple years ago and are basically a big book of boardgame scenarios.

Also, forgot to add that Amazon has it for preorder at $40 with free shipping. Hard to beat. And if you buy it clicking through the site here, you'll be supporting the fort. (someone better at the internet than me put in a direct link that uses the F:AT referal jammer please)

OK, I'm sold. How do we pre-order through F:AT? Is there a particular link?

$40 looks like a good price. I added to our F:aStore

I hate you 'we get cheap games' bloody yanks, the best I've seen Castle Ravenloft (same base price in the US) here is £37.50 with free shipping ... and rubbing our noses in it even more is that the free shipping is to anywhere in the world while Amazon.com free shipping is just to the US >:(.

... and it is now no longer available at that site. I nearly had a cunning plan for Wrath of Ashardalon as Kinput is coming across the pond in Nov - until I saw that the release date was December. CURSES, FOILED AGAIN.

O RLY? Is he stopping by your neck of the woods at all?

I just recently dumped my Descent collection for a 10 game trade and i never looked back from it. Descent as i see it just turned into this behemoth monster FFG lost control of and never could get it back on the right path. The campaign was a nice touch but really a campaign in Descent could take a year plus to complete playing on a weekly basis hardcore. Ravenloft is close to what i hoped it would be and this new expansion looks like it has the rest of what i was looking for.

If FFG is "Smart" they should just let it quietly die off in a corner somewhere and re-launch that line by getting a license from GW and adapting WHQ into a terrinoth setting. I would prefer if it stayed in the same setting but i doubt GW would let them use that setting and there's no way they would let them produce the minis for it.

If FFG is "Smart" they should just let it quietly die off in a corner somewhere and re-launch

Why the hell would they do that if the line is still selling great guns?
Just because a few fair-weather fans suddenly decided they don't like it after spending multiple hours playing it?
It's still the most played game in my collection. I dare say there are plenty of potential new fans wanting to snaffle all these dumped copies up, so play the D&D line and don't worry about it.

Oh Crap. There goes my christmas present from my wife.

Frank: I think you're right on this one. I have loathed Descent since my first play because my crowd is chock *full* of optimization types. Never again for me; however, these guys love the game to death and will continue to play it until the cards are worn through. There are plenty enough folks like that out there to ensure the Descent family has a fair bit of life left in it as long as they find ways to periodically refresh the product line.

I hardly ever comment here on FAT but I happen to be a fan of Descent. I agree with most of the posters that it is too bloated and takes too long MOST of the time. But the game design itself and the dungeon crawl aspect is still one of the best out there. It's hands down better than most of the revered games in the genre (Heroquest or Warhammer quest).

It just needs someone to design shorter scenarios. They are out there, they need more of them.

I am always baffled by those who take 4-6 hours to play. 3 hours is a long game for my group and for Descent that's too long. But I feel no other game (outside of d&d) quite captures the d&d feel in a boardgame form. And it is just as fun to play as the overlord as the heroes. Descent has it's moments of greatness ( always fun to watch the heroes dicker over opening a chest for fear of being turned into a monkey)

It doesn't see much play at my house but I'll be hanging on to mine. Every now and then it's fun to take a dive.

Bizarrely I'm actually quite pleased that this has been delayed. I'm hopeful that the reason for the extension is that WotC is taking on some of the feedback from the first game and that we'll see a lot of the things people have been asking for: clarified rules, more variation in monster AI and (fingers crossed on this!!!) a genuinely progressive multi-session campaign system.

Bizarrely I'm actually quite pleased that this has been delayed. I'm hopeful that the reason for the extension is that WotC is taking on some of the feedback from the first game and that we'll see a lot of the things people have been asking for: clarified rules, more variation in monster AI and (fingers crossed on this!!!) a genuinely progressive multi-session campaign system.

You are dreamin'.
This game would already be in china. I doubt very much you can design, test and physically make changes then get the game produced by febuary. The turnover is too short, especially since there is an Xmas period in there.

That being said this delay is probably good unless you weren't planing on picking up Ravenloft. From most accounts this game is identicle to Ravenloft, so by delayiong it 'till feb it comes out when you will probably be burnt out on the ravenloft scenerios, giving you a nice transition to some new ones with new monsters.

I don't get the call for a "multi-session campaign system". How do you think it should work? I thought everyone loved this game because it was short and streamlined. I can't see how you can mash in a big leveling sytem and make it work.

Actually, I'm not sure you can. But saying that I don't think the desire is incompatible with enjoying the game because it's short and streamlined. I like the fact that it's a game you can pick up and play, sure, but at the same time a game mode that would fill multiple hours would still be a great addition.

I don't think they are really making any changes except to maybe the rulebook (which would allow for some of those desired changes) but I don't really care, I'm just going to be happy to have more stuff to smash eventually.

I think it would be pretty damn easy to add in some more levels for characters since there already is a mechanic for leveling up once. Though given the fairly high lethality of the system, I dunno how you'd not just keep dying a whole lot and not getting very campaigny.

Maybe they're seeing how well Ravenloft sells in big retail stores at xmas-time before committing to a large print run of a follow-up game. I would think for a large company that profit margin comes before pleasing a niche market of internet geeks. So I doubt they're holding back to make changes based on speculation comments online.

We may get cheap games, southernman, but you have the spice girls and "So Graham Norton"...how the hell does that even compare? :)

I'm surprised that you've not bartered with some of your more rebellious compatriots in the 'States to buy them here and post them over to you in the UK! I'd think it'd have to be cheaper...I got D&D Fantasy Adventure BG from some chap over in Lancastershire who had it up for 2,5 quid and with shipping it was something like 31$ US...got it in a week and a half.

If I could get a game I was after for $5 then I'd quite happily pay $31 postage to get it here - like I did with my copy of Fortress America.
I'm a Kiwi so you can't hang the spice girls and Graham Norton on me ...

What I meant was that if the game is 37 quid in the UK (That's about 70$ US, right?) couldn't you have a mate in the US buy it and ship it for less than that? I sure hope so...that's a right stiff price to pay unless it's a grail game....

I expect the delay is so they can do a second print run of Castle Ravenloft first. I very much doubt that there are any changes to WoA due to CR feedback as these things take 6-12 months to sort out and test, so we are way to close to printing and shipping for any changes.

I said that Mr Skeletor because the base game and the early expansions are never to be reprinted again in the way they were originally. The cost to produce them at that level is not possible anymore. Kind of like why there's no WoTr reprint in the format that the original game came out in. Distributors have been trying to get them back in for a while now with no luck.

Gameplay wise you might get it played a great deal but your OL must be a kind person. If you play the game as it was meant to be played you have almost no chance of ever beating the OL. You need to make some very specific changes and house rule so that he doesn't continuously pick on the weak link.

I personally enjoyed the game early on but now it's just become overly bloated. I would like to see a new release of the game scaled down and taken back to its roots with SOME of the expansion stuff added in for a little extra flavor. The biggest change has to be with the OL ability to decimate weak characters repeatedly though. I mean it was a CORE design to use that tactic as the OL and it makes playing that character not so much fun.

The format they are using to design it gives them a great deal of flexibility to makes changes quickly before mass production. There's no massive graphics or anything overly produced in the game. To be honest the comlaint of how bland RL is could be a strength in being able to makes last minute changes to other expansions.