Z-Man Games to Publish Dungeon Lords Hot

I am torn on this game. I looked through the rules. It is straight worker placement. Looks incredibly boring besides being able to choose between the monsters you hire.

But the fighting phase looks like fun! Ah well, I'm definitely not jumping into this one.

This will either be a lot of fun or an overproduced snorefest.

Well, worker placement or not, my buddy and I are actually arguing about who gets to buy this one. That has never happened but after a two month love affair with space alert (twice everyday at work) and having gone through one of those with galaxy trucker, and it's expansion already... I'm more then willing to give him a chance. Worker placement is not that bad of a mechanism...it's all about how you use it, not what you use.

It's a spreadsheet game with cutesy graphics. Pass.

I'm just going by the two previews at BGG, but Dungeon Lords seems to be a dry worker placement Euro with almost zero interaction between players. The tight restrictions on order selection keeps the game artificially close by taking away most of your choices. If you're looking for emergent gameplay, look elsewhere.

Yeah, I don't know about this one. I think folks are getting blinded by a combination of the Vlaada Chvatil name and the apparent theme. Have you actually looked at this thing? It looks even MORE spreadsheety than most Eurgames! I mean, we joke about that a lot but it literally looks like it was designed in Excel.

I'm not really sure what the hook is here beyond the theme (which I'm willing to bet is almost wholly executive).

But it's a good title for Z-Man...it'll sell 5,000 copies easily.

I am going to Essen in a couple of hours and initially I was looking forward for two games - Dungeon Lords and Srtonghold. But as time goes by, both games look like a huge dissapointment. Guess I will be looking for some good old games at the thrifts at Essen.

Eh, Stronghold not Srtonghold.

I'm hoping this won't actually be the total let down it's seeming to be headed for. I know someone I play with will buy it soon enough so I'll at least give it a play before passing judgment but fuck, you have to really screw things up to have me not overly interested in a dungeon game.

This game looks like another AOE: III variation. Take a PC game, "Dungeon Keeper" (where it's obviously ripped off from) and then proceed to strip the fun from it.

Add me to the PASS list.:P

I'll tell you this though. Now that I've met and talked with Zev, I have a better handle on why he picks the games that he does to release. He hasn't always hit the mark as far as I'm concerned, but he does go for games that have something different to offer for a pretty wide range of gamers. I haven't played DUNGEON LORDS, but it could be something that comes together when you play it. I'll definitely give it a fair chance and probably a full review, but what I'm seeing so far is worrysome.

Of course, GALAXY TRUCKER looked scary on the table too...too many grids!

Well, there's only one way to find out...

Don't worry guys. I'll try to give you the game you are looking for when Cryptkeepers comes out. ;)

As much as I own and like Space Alert and Galaxy Trucker for their crazy romps through the stars, this game looks like something that I'll pass on buying unless it is hiding a different game under its covers.

Based on the rulebook, the theme looks very integrated into everything: almost nothing makes sense without the theme.

That said, as I was reading the rulebook and loving it and loving the great thematic explanations, I realized: as incredibly clever as everything is, this sounds HORRIBLE. Really. I love Galaxy Trucker and Space Alert, but based on the read through the rulebook it is a brain-burning effiency spreadsheet game with a cool, not pasted-on theme. I think Galaxy Trucker and Space Alert also could have been real brain-burning no-fun games, too, if not for the timer making sure that people don't take it too seriously and making sure that every does terribly so you can laugh at the destruction.

Definitely ZERO emergent gameplay possibilities.

Do you ever wonder if contractors are hired to build all these dungeons?

Plumbers, certainly, not so sure about aluminum siders and roofers...

Not just Imps, is what you're getting at.

Is that what that is[/i? and here I was thinking it was a gremlin.:-*

Hmm. I just started skimming through the rules to this game and found this on page six:

Any game which features scenarios that can be "solved" seems very, very unlikely to be worth playing. I stopped reading there.

Matt, and that's the fun looking part of the game, the combat against the adventurers. You shouldn't look at the rest of it.

For those of you who are ready to buy this game just for the theme, go read the MonsterQuest review again and think about it.

I hate to keep bashing on this game, because I have great respect for Zev and Z-Man games. I'm sure the EuroGamers at BGG will like it just fine, and they are the obvious target market. It's just that it looks sort of AmeriTrash but it really isn't. It's offensive in the same way as Avril Lavigne identifying herself as a punk rocker, amusing and annoying.

My DUNGEON KEEPER board game is going to be called DUNGEON CONTRACTOR. In it, you play an unscrupulous contractor hired by the evil wizard Zorkon to build a dungeon. You have to subcontract out various roles- flooring people, portcullis installers, torture chamber designers, and so on- but you only have a certain amount of money so you've got to cut corners in some places. A Zorkon figure, which you must spend the game trying to impress, occassionally walks around and surveys the work. You have to hide your shoddy craftsmanship from him. If you run out of money, you can try to impress him into giving you more by a clever dutch auction mechanic wherein players all try to tell him that they'll fix critically important structures for the cheapest price. I'm going to design using Excel and a Visio flowchart, two of the most powerful game design tools known to man.

C'mon guys, lets be fair. You can't be a successful overlord/super villain if you can't run the numbers.

And if you get tired of the fantasy theme, you can play at being a Cowboy Contractor in the Wild West.

Carson City

1859. In Carson City, each player will build up a team of courageous cowboys, then let them loose into the city to round up the best pieces of land, and build the most lucrative buildings. Do you have the guts to challenge your opponents to a duel to secure the best property? Can you win the help of the most prominent citizens in Carson City?

Uba, I was really hoping that you were just joking about Carson City. Nope.

Here's a couple of revealing answers from an interview with the designer posted at BGG:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/441894

"What are the main mechanisms of the game? Which of them are producing the fun? The main mechanism is of the game is the placement of the cowboys on the action boxes and in the town of Carson City, this in combination with the special characters each player owns each turn. There is a lot of interaction between the players due to the fact that more players are allowed to choose 1 location and when they do, well there is a shootout.

"The part with the characters and roles sounds a little bit like San Juan or even Puerto Rico. Is this really similar. What’s the difference to the mentioned games in this point? In a way it is similar but there are also a lot of resemblances with other games I think. I am not claiming the mechanisms of Carson City are totally new, but they work out very good in this game. Also important is– due to the brilliant artwork of the French artist Alexandre Roche – that players will really get the feeling that they are inhabitants of expanding Carson City."

Also, this: "Those who want to ban any luck may choose the duel tiles instead of the dice. A tactical hint? You can try to let your cowboys grow in strength by earning a lot of revolver chips. Than you can beat the others in every single duel."

Sounds really boring.

From Pistoolkip's Short preview the only interaction is the competition for placing your workers on the order spaces.

Regarding the 20-tile 'expansion' Hartattack916 said: "I'm going to assume that the reason that it's included in the base game is because it was intended to be in the base game, but they need more time to fully play-test it or to write/ proof-read the rules or something of that nature. The fact that they include this in the game and they're not making people buy the expansion is absolutely outstanding! This was not a game I would've initially thought of purchasing, but all this effort that's being put into the presentation and overall quality of the game might just push me to buy it."
Only a TOSser would think that including unplaytested stuff and labelling it an expansion (?!!) makes it outstanding...

Wow. Just wow.

I don't want to hear another fucking word from a euro TOSser about expansions "fixing" anything to a base game.

MattDP: ...
Hmm. I just started skimming through the rules to this game and found this on page six:

You should try to find the solutions to the training scenarios yourselves.

Any game which features scenarios that can be "solved" seems very, very unlikely to be worth playing. I stopped reading there.

19
October 22, 2009

I've seen lots of books on chess and go that has problems laid out for people to "solve." That doesn't meant the game is solveable per se, just that there are correct plays for a particular problem.

Pile on! Let's all talk shit about a game that hasn't even been released yet!

I'll bet they used shrinkwrap that's too hard to tear! And the recycled fiber in the cardboard probably comes from books with typographical errors!

fun murderer.

Had a chance to play this game this Essen and while it is not a bad eurogame, it is definitely not a gung ho free for all slaughterhouse. It is a multiplayer solo dungeon building game with an economic engine. Not bad as such, and the theme is worked out well (hey, they don't mince words on comparisons to Dungeon Keeper), but won't get any AT hearts pumping.

Played the proto in the spring. Like.
It is structured like Galaxy Trucker...replace the journey in that with a much shorter fight phase, and the high speed ship building with a slower more Euro-y game.
It isn't really that heavy a game. Kind of long and a bit fluffy, and with a ton of little random details. It is definitely on the AT side of those kinds of things.

In some ways, the basic mechanics also remind me of A Castle for All Seasons. Dungeon Lords, however, is 4 times the actual length, but feels like the shorter and far less painful game. (A Castle .... is the most thoroughly medicore game I've played in some time.)

Quite right. It's the idea that there could/should be a "correct" play for any given situation that worries me. It a good game there should always be some gray areas for decision making.

Quite right. It's the idea that there could/should be a "correct" play for any given situation that worries me. It a good game there should always be some gray areas for decision making.

In go problems, the "problem area" is always shown with a large amount of empty space around it. This is to emphasize that this is a particular problem, and is being considered without any regard for the rest of the board. If you have enough empty space, you can do that. If there are any nearby stones, or other effects from a real game going on, then you're not playing the same problem anymore.

Problems exist only to sharpen your tactical skills, not to provide a dictionary of all possible useful situations. In a perfect-information no-luck abstract everything is "solvable", but in any decent game it's well beyond human capability to do that. In Dungeon Lords, that may be more of a source of concern.

Wasn't the Death Star built almost entirely by contractors?

"Don't worry, Lord Tarkin. There will be plenty of handrails."

According to "Clerks," yes.

Dungeon Lords isn't really solvable.
The actual combat sequence *is* diceless and extremely predictable. Except that:
1. Spellcaster actions are hidden information. You can look, but it costs an action for each bit of information you get.
2. The actual amount of resources you get from committing a worker is randomized.

It does have an interesting feel to it. Sort of like you are sitting on your skulled throne when a minion runs in and tells you:

"A band of adventurers is collecting in the inn to raid our home. They have a cleric and a wizard."
"Grognutz. I need a Golem, Vampire, two traps, extra food, dig an new channel off the birthing chamber, and breed two more minion."

Grognutz comes back with 5 food, 1 minion, two orcs, and 3 traps. You forgot to ask him to try and sneak a peek at the mage's spellbook. You are doomed.