A Valentine to OGRE Hot

Steve Jackson used to publish some great games. I think that he sold his soul to the devil to make Munchkin the big hit that it really shouldn't be.

I owned OGRE a long time ago. I can't even remember which friend I traded it to, or what I got in return. I remember it being a carefully balanced and reasonably exciting game, but a little flat and simple compared to other games of the day, like Kung Fu 2100 or Undead.

If you ever come looking for it. I also have Ogre Shockwave. :)

I liked that piece! especially that last bit about trying to recapture lost (gaming)memories, fleeting moments and trying to capture that again chasing all these flashy games. It uhmm kinda moved me and put me to think. thanks!

Nice article; it reminds me of my recent thinking on designing for effect. I think games with strong theme-mechanic integration are easier to learn pound for pound than more abstract games. If I can immerse myself in the game and make decisions that are "realistic" in the game space and mechanically similar to their narrative counterparts, then there are fewer mental gymnastics. A problem can still arise in heavily thematic games though when the designer fails to prioritize what the game should fundamentally be about. Instead of engaging in creative play full time, you end up having to mentally juggle too many rules. There is a real human limit to how much of this a person can handle and still pay attention to what's going on at the table (both from a competitive and mood standpoint). Of course, with experience, this hurdle can be overcome, but designer's should still ask themselves if the hurdle is worth clearing.

It sounds like Steve Jackson had a very clear idea of what OGRE was to be about and what needed to be a priority in the design (not struggling with LOS, ZOC, or whatever). It's not surprising that it so easily engaged your imagination as it sounds like there wasn't anything there to impede it.

You always shine when you write from the heart, Michael. Great article and I'd love to sit down and play this face to face some time.

Nick said,

Great point. I picked up a new game recently (and I will post an exclusive review here after I get in a couple of plays) and it's been difficult to learn because there is are a couple of levels of abstraction between the concept and the actual gameplay. The artwork really delivers the atmosphere, but then the abstraction seems to pull the player right back out of the atmosphere. It's a hybrid that would have been better as an actual AmeriTrash game.

On a side note: are you folks noticing faster load times at Gameshark?

I'm hoping -- yes.

I did Bill.

There is a real human limit to how much of this a person can handle and still pay attention to what's going on at the table (both from a competitive and mood standpoint). Of course, with experience, this hurdle can be overcome, but designer's should still ask themselves if the hurdle is worth clearing.

This is somewhere I think FFG's designs are starting to kind of toe the line, with the exception of BSG. They fall just short of crossing that threshold where there's too much, and what's there is already beyond what a lot of people want to keep up with in an entertainment pastime. Look at all there is to keep track of in TI3...does that enhance the theme, or is it somewhere where game process intervenes and creates a disconnect? I hate to continually rap on ANDROID, but the amount of mechanical/administrative overhead in that game really hinders the theme more than it helps it. DESCENT gets dangerously close to completely unwieldy, but the good news there is that you can really just kind of keep track of your own junk.

OGRE is a sharp contrast to this "more cards=theme" approach because there's almost nothing to keep track of other than what's immediately on the board. Yet with solid, science fiction rationale behind every design decision and an atmospheric conceptual framework it creates a sense of theme and narrative that may not be as epic or sweeping as TI3, but I don't think it's any less immersive. It may actually be more immersive since the mechanics are thin yet open-ended.

It's funny, in the GEV rules there's a difference in how the Ogre handles two different kinds of terrain. It's a minimal change, but the rules say that it requires "more bookkeeping". As compared to any given wargame published today?!

You always shine when you write from the heart, Michael. Great article and I'd love to sit down and play this face to face some time.

This one really is from the heart. Lately I've been kind of bummed out about a lot of newer games and even games I like have left me feeling kind of empty. When I dug up OGRE (after Weeks mentioned it, no less) it really kind of reconnected me with the higher gaming virtues. I think OGRE really embodies the best qualities that _any_ hobby game can achieve.

I do think it's interesting that hobby games used to be called "adventure games" and you see that in a lot of older articles...whatever happened to that...the only person I know that still calls them that is Richard Launius.

Great article, hit hard by the end.

I thought it was DRM Abuse not Dr. Mabuse.

Never played OGRE, but its now on my TBP list should the offline opportunity arise.

I definitely noticed a load time improvement.

Yes, I noticed that it was faster myself. I hear Abner finally convinced them to upgrade the 486 running the Gameshark site.

I can't read the post at work but I can say that playing OGRE has been a blast so far. It's the same thrill I get when it comes to Battleboard fights in Titan. There is no abstraction in movement or dice rolls, I'm rolling to either disable you or destroy your shit. Simple and instantly gratifying (or frustrating in Michael's case). I'm looking forward to learning GEV.

@ Mad Dog

It's Dr.Mabuse after the title character in Fritz Lang's 1933 film "Das Testament des Dr. Mabuse" who's an insane criminal mastermind. That being said I have become less of a DRM abuser in the past few years (more income, less abuse).

Some love is due to the artist behind the original Ogre: Winchell Chung

http://www.projectrho.com/

Great article, one of your best.

I think there's an important point in here about the function of rules as they relate to narrative and emergent play. One of the things I like about BSG is that the rules are so minimal -- they give you the framework of the house, so to speak, and then your group puts up the walls and decorates. And as a result you end up with something that is unique and different. How many times have we criticized games like PR for being samey? Rules have to give you space to inhabit and roll around in. PR, for everything that is good about its design, straightjackets you into a bunch of artificial constraints and then rewards you for mastering this arcane arbitrariness.

Maybe even more than the Euro/AT divide, I think there's a divide between rules that free and rules that constrain. In the first, the draw is to play with the rules and see what happens. In the latter, the draw is to master the rules and win. I don't even think this is necessarily a function of the amount of rules a game has -- look at ASL, which has tons and yet still provides more exciting, unpredictable gameplay than Agricola. RPGs are maybe the ultimate example of rules that free, at least in their modern form that gets rid of encumbrance rules and other grognard holdovers.

Or, to draw an example from sports, imagine if basketball was limited to set shots and jump shots. Every other type of shot was a foul. Boring. But instead there's a minimalist rule that says put it in the basket however you can, and over time we now have skyhooks, layups, and dunks. Great! (And I'm not really a basketball fan, although I like a good highlight reel.)

So what makes a space for emergent play? I'm still scratching my head on that one, but I think it has a lot to do with the size and balance of the decision tree in the game. To small of a tree, or an imbalance to where one or two choices is obvious, and there's no room for surprise strategies, situational gambits, or well-laid plans that take half a game to come to fruition. And then you're stuck playing PR and its clones again.

Oh, and to go back to the desire to master arcane rules and win: I think there's a very obvious reason here why geek culture needed to invent the term "rule lawyers". And why people with rules lawyerish tendencies seem to retreat to simple games with well-delineated rules -- it's an easy (i.e. passive-aggressive) way to negotiate a "no-RLing" truce at the table. Just play with games that are too simple to rules lawyer!

First, great article. I, too, lost my copy of the original Ogre somewhere along the way but have never replaced it. Of course, there's less need to with VASSAL and Cyberbox around.

Second, I'd bet money that Fury of the Norsemen is the Viking game you've forgotten. Also a Microgame, had that one too. Still have a copy.

Third, and I know you get antsy about this kind of thing, Barnes, but you are a boardgame expert.

Damnit! It looks like I was *soooooo* close to getting namechecked in a Barnes article and then he comes back here and credits Weeks for it (Ogre was the game that introduced the CRT into my life in the early 80s). To think, I almost achieved Name Gamer status for a fleeting moment... *sigh* :-P

And, Barnes, I'm about half-set-up on that VASSAL module. I'd forgotten that the Mark V scenario gives me just about every freakin' counter in the box to try to stop you before you turn my CP into drywall dust. expect it early next week after get my ass kicked in my first game of Unhappy King Charles this weekend and deliver this proposal [work thing] Monday night. I'll send you a .sav file [oh, and the DiF stuff arrived in good order; thanks!]

And, for those interested, thanks to Chapel trading along his "proper box" combo-edition of Ogre/Gev, I now have an uncut copy of the VHS-box Ogre/Gev combo available for trade [a couple of Runebound decks [and I have 2 dupes I'd like to swap with anyone else dumb enough to pick up duplicates]? A couple of Wings of War minis? Whatever, I'm easy!--more people need to play Ogre]. And, no matter what the "ZOMG IT'S OOP!!!!1111"-type sellers try to tell you, all 3 expansions [Shockwave, Battlefields, and Reinforcement Pack] are still available for cheap from Amazon [I think 2 of them are actually still in print from SJG; Shockwave's counters and map are available in 1 of the other packs I think, though the rules for them may not be].

BTW, I'll have to doublecheck to confirm, but I believe if you buy the Ogre Reinforcement Pack (MSRP $15, available at Amazon), I believe you actually get everything you need to play except the rulebook. Several of us could hook you up with the rules.

I've yet to zip over and read the article, but I want to toss this out there before I forget: taking Ogre to its next level resulted in G.E.V., which I consider to be one of the top designs of any game, ever.

I'm still blown away by G.E.V. today: new units, terrain rules, better close-combat rules, new rules for things like "spillover fire," a fun map, assymetrical scenarios, and on and on -- all in a ahndful of pages and published in NINETEEN SEVENTY-EIGHT.

And it wasn't unwieldy, either. I taught myself to play as a pre-teen, and had very little trouble. I even got my dad to play, and he was definitely from the Scrabble-Monopoly-Cribbage generation. I don't even think my dad liked Risk, but he loved G.E.V. Just a truly awesome design, really.

Not to dismiss Ogre; that's not my intent. But G.E.V. took a fun I-Go-You-Go light wargame and expanded it exponentially.

I am bummed that SJG is shelving their efforts to print a higher quality version of the game because they "couldn't find anyone who could print the components" or some such lame excuse.

dysjunct wrote:

I think you nailed it here man. How many tools do you have to give players so that they can engage in creative, competitive play? For some of us, those tools should also provide simulative value so that a coherent narrative is created when all is said and done. At the same time, we have to be very careful about overloading the players as they engage in such play. Like you said though, how do you determine what's enough?

Wow. I used to have OGRE, Shockwave, and GEV and mixed them all together on a regular basis. Then, my primary wargame opponent got married and had kids, so I traded them for something else. I don't even remember what it was. Guess we could call that a mistake, if only for the nostalgia denial.

Oh, and I'm betting your friend's game was Viking Gods. I still have that one...

I never played but it sounds fun.

I was at a local game store hoping beyond hope they had some Dragon Dice in the clearance section (no such luck) when I saw that they had an Ogre GURPS book. What's that about?

It actually loaded for me, and in about the same time it takes for most websites to load. For whatever reason, the last few weeks that I tried accessing Gameshark, my whole computer would just stop. I had to use the Task Manager to kill Internet Explorer before I could do anything else. I'm glad you said something because I wasn't going to even try to read Michael's article this week, didn't want the hassle.

Metalface: the GURPS stuff is SJG's "universal roleplaying system". The themed books like you saw are essentially sourcebooks that give you a setting in which you can set up some RPG gaming. Not the same stuff [though it used to be a fun, fairly flexible system back when I was an RPG'er]

Nice article, Barnes. Sadly, I never did get around to trying OGRE...

Maybe even more than the Euro/AT divide, I think there's a divide between rules that free and rules that constrain.

Dysjunct, I think your post really strikes pretty deep at the heart of what makes an AT game different than a Eurogame- even deeper than the theme/narrative issue. AT games, by and large, engage the imagination and creativity of the players while also allowing space for players to actually _play_ the game. Not simply act out the rules in the most profitable fashion possible. A lot of Eurogame designers do not allow the players the luxury of making _real_ decisions or interacting in a meaningful way because when things like creativity and imagination are allowed to engage a design then strict processes and finely tuned balance are jeopardized. A game of BSG is completely off balance if the Cylon player is extremely good at being a Cylon- which means being really good at the social elements of the game and in exploiting the possibilities that the rules create for creative interference.

So what makes a space for emergent play?

I don't think it's the decision tree itself that creates this but rather the provision within that decision tree to allow for creativity, intuition, player interaction, and variable/situational choices. When it's "follow the rules the best and you'll win", emergent play isn't possible.

Second, I'd bet money that Fury of the Norsemen is the Viking game you've forgotten. Also a Microgame, had that one too. Still have a copy.

YES, that's it! The picture brought it all back.

Damnit! It looks like I was *soooooo* close to getting namechecked in a Barnes article

I did! You were cited as the source for the OGRE BOOK! Full disclosure- Dog traded me SHOCKWAVE, BATTLEFIELDS, the book, and the scenario book...I have the complete OGRE collection thanks to him.

I'm still blown away by G.E.V. today: new units, terrain rules, better close-combat rules, new rules for things like "spillover fire," a fun map, assymetrical scenarios, and on and on -- all in a ahndful of pages and published in NINETEEN SEVENTY-EIGHT.

When I played GEV with a friend of mine the other day, he said "Why do we even bother playing other wargames?" And that was a good question because GEV kind of has it all- but in an ultra streamlined, minimal package. The additions are slight, but the effect on gameplay tremendous. GEV is a must have. It does take OGRE out of the elemental simplicity of the basic scenario, but in exchange you get a much more complete, comprehensive wargame system that is as accessible and fun to play as any wargame ever published. Period.

I am bummed that SJG is shelving their efforts to print a higher quality version of the game because they "couldn't find anyone who could print the components" or some such lame excuse.

It's a lame excuse because the game could be printed for a buck a piece (or less) in its original format and sold for $15-$20. I'm all for a souped-up, high-end edition (I'd pay $100 for it in a heartbeat) but that's not really where the game needs to be. I think it needs to be a small box, compact, and inexpensive game. Fuck all the people who think that a game has to have modern production qualities to be any good. OGRE is a better, more replayable game than 90% of what comes out these days.

It really makes no sense that MUNCHKIN trundles on as Steve Jackson's tentpole property when the man has done some truly amazing, groundbreaking design work that even he has just let slide into obscurity. It's a shame that he's known as the MUNCHKIN guy when his legacy is infinitely more significant than the countless spinoffs that useless game has spawned.

Dogmatix: I know what GURPS is. I was just wondering if anyone had any insight on the history behind the Orgre book and/or if anyone desperately wanted one for their Ogre collection I could pick it up for them.

Ogre dosen't need a deluxe edition. Ogre/GEV is about a small box game with maximum gameplay. I remember buying GEV, Car Wars and later Illuminati when they were packaged in the small back plastic cases for $4 each. Those games were almost magical in the amount of fun they contained and the way they sparked the imagination. I totally didn't give a shit that I had to cut out the counters myself, or that the map/roads were paper, or that the rulebook was B&W. Later, I bought the deluxe edition of Car Wars and it just wasn't the same. That was the first time I relized that sometimes more isn't better, sometimes it's just more.

Are those days of the samll affordable game gone? Hell no! Look at what FFG is doing with their silverline titles, especially Red November. Right there you have a cool little game is a small affordable box with some nice components. Re-release Ogre in a similar format and price point and it would sell like insulin at a diabetics convention. SJG dosen't even have to give up on their love of expansions. Six months to a year later they could release GEV and then Shockwave, etc.

Steve Jackson Games... You once brought the world Car Wars, Uncle Albert's, Ogre and GEV. Now you bring us endless Munchkin schlock and battle cattle. WTF?! I'm going to have to ask you all to suck less. kthxbai

-Will

On the subject of rules space for emergent play:

ASL has far more rules than Agricola and doesn't suck. Agricola has far more rules than Settlers of Catan, but still sucks.

Consider the following simple rules that would make Settlers of Catan suck:

1. All goods are now assigned the following absolute values: Sheep (1), Wood (2), Wheat (2), Clay (3), Ore (3).
2. The total values of all trades must be equal.
3. You must offer to trade with all other players before you may trade with the same player twice in a row.

Isn't that great? It's so fair! It keeps people from ganging up and trade embargoing somebody. And aggressive jerks can't harangue the meek into unfair trades. But, it sucks. It removes all ambiguity from the game, and all situational analysis. By trying to assign value by fiat instead of letting each player determine for himself, at each individual moment of the game, the value of the goods, it turns a dynamic game into one that is stale, flat, lifeless, and boring. I doubt there's anybody here who, given a choice between (a) the above rules, but the game has dice, and (b) the original rules but with the lame "dice deck", would actually choose (a).

So we have what is really a tiny, tiny space in the rules and game state, yet it totally makes the game. And I think, exposes the "all AT games are the same because they all boil down to a negotiation-fest!" criticism of the fatbeards as the vapid, steaming pile it actually is. (Ignoring the fact that SoC is not AT.)

(Another optional rule to completely cement the suck: 4. No player may receive the robber more than any other player, unless all players have received the robber an equal number of times. It's so fair!)

Dysjunct, when you look at the kind of socially malfeasant stumblebums who cluster around gaming- and Eurogames in particular- is it any wonder they think that a game won by the best negotiator, kibbutzer, or smooth-talker is bad? They're going to lose every time. Much better for them that the rules keep the cowards, the shy, and the weak from getting preyed upon. Even better when they can stare quietly at a player board and make decisions without the social ramifications that might come from doing something to another player.

Bulwyf- I didn't even know that the game was cancelled. I had heard something about a "super deluxe" 7th edition and at first I thought "Awesome, miniatures/mounted board/better production!" But then I heard it was already cancelled. Then I realized that I don't want all of that. If I wanted that, I could go all out and do the OGRE miniatures thing, which doesn't interest me at all because it take the game away from what it really is.

OGRE needs to be small, compact, and inexpensive. Those are some of its biggest differentiators. If they put out the basic OGRE/GEV pack that retailed for $15 in 2000 out today for $20-$25 it would be the best value in gaming _period_. Of course, the internet means a lot of huffing and puffing about the paper map and small, cut'em out yourself counters...and lots of clucking about "sub par" production. But knowing what I know about OGRE I'd pay $100 for the same game I paid $5 for in the 80s. I paid $80 for WORLD OF WARCRAFT and it had incredible production. But it wasn't worth a dollar to me.

The time is right for small box games to come back. With recreation dollars few and far between, high quality and inexpensive games are an ideal recession-buster. I'm not talking about Cheapass type stuff, I'm talking about stuff like the Metagaming titles that were solid games worth playing more than once.

It's all I want right now...and none of you bastards put UNDEAD, NECROMANCER, LORDS OF UNEARTH, WARP WAR, RIVETS, or any of that stuff on the Arms Trade so I guess I'm getting REEF ENCOUNTER.

It does appear that the Ogre Reinforcement Pack gives you everything needed to play OGRE/G.E.V. except the rules. I went and ordered it. Can anyone hook me up with a copy of the rules?

Send me a PM with your "real" address Nick and I'll hook you up.

Actually, now that I look at it again, it appears that the 2 maps that come with the Reinforcement Pack are the G.E.V. one and the Shockwave one.

Another random Ogre memory ...

Anyone else remember the first edition; the one with the GEVs with a 4/4 movement factor? And it meant that a swarm of GEVs was essentially a game-breaking defensive strategy ... and for an Ogre without missiles, it WAS a game-breaking strategy?

It was no accident that the GEVs suddenly had new engines in the second edition. That 4/3 made a world of difference.

Okay, threadjacking over ...

He did Melee/Wizard/TFT, too. I can't argue with wanting to make money, but seriously, what happened?

Agreed. If he doesn't want to produce the games (all of which could be offered as PDF downloads at reasonable prices, including OGRE) then he needs to sell the rights to someone who will. If Steve Jackson Games is going to solely produce MUNCHKIN and the occassional CHEZ GEEK game or GURPS then it's time to cut the good stuff loose so it can be made available to people who care about it.

I'm sorry I haven't been collecting games since I was an embryo! Sheesh. But as long as Reef Encounter is on your want list, I'm cool.

First, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the disturbing fact that Michael Barnes is probably dead, and that various forces (probably Weeks) are using his login as a sock puppet. Need proof?

http://snurl.com/bubal

Secondly, I don't want FFG production levels, just counters that are big enough for my aging eyes and clumsy fingers. Something along the lines of Conflict of Heroes. It's a disability access issue, not sniffing the nether quarters of Euro Gamers as has been suggested.

I own the Ogre/Gev combo vhs pack, by the way.

Where are you guys getting a VASSAL mod for OGRE? I can't find it anywhere?

I would be totally happy with a small-box production a la Red November. $25, full color counters and map, maybe a little bit of plastic. It's clearly doable, the only question is if SJG wants it enough.

Yeah, but who's going to buy it? Sure, fans of the old game would probably pick up a copy, even if they already had one of the earlier versions, but does anyone here really think something like OGRE will be all that successful outside of that? I can already hear the tossers pounding furiously on their keyboards, voicing their CONCERNS.

What!? You have to use a pencil and paper!? You have to consult a chart every time you want to shoot something!? There's only one map, no scenarios, no terrain overlays. From everything I'd read about this game, I thought it was going to be better than having sex while skydiving, but it's such a disappointment. I got my treads shot off, the game is broken, unbalanced, blah blah blah.

I know, I know, fuck them. But, these are the people SJG has to sell a game like OGRE to if it's going to be worth their while to sink the money into a re-release.

Nick. If you've already ordered the Reinforcement pack, I'll dig up one of my original Ogre maps and send it down to you. Also check out Ogre Battlefields for 4 cool new maps! The other thing you can do is just download the Ogre Vassal module, open it up and pull out the Ogre map from the module and print it out. The map is very small, so it wouldn't be a big deal and the Vassal module map is excellent....

Barnes: Well damn! I missed it. Thanks!

Metalface: Doh. Sorry! As far as the story, I seem to recall that it was essentially like roleplaying an Imperial Guardsman in WH40k...It struck me as less Ogre than the Ogre minis...

http://www.sirdinglydang.com/OgreMapEditor.htm

Ogre map editor

Someone should just steal the mechanics and rename it and rerelease it with lots of scenarios. Call it B.U.G.A.R. or something.

Dogmatix, I found the Vassal module (http://www.members.shaw.ca/dylango/ogrevassal/), but can't figure out how to pull the original map from it. I went into the edit function and can locate the map, but can't pull it back out. Hmmm...

I feel like I must play this now. I think I got all the rules for the basic scenario (thanks to various articles on BGG and SJG's website, and the OGRE Lite pdf). It sounds like a great sci-fi wargame that isn't bogged down with rules. Thanks for the article.

Ogre Lite is not Ogre, which is not GEV. There is a player aid that basically repeats the rules of traditional Ogre. On that one site.