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How do you DUNE?

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24 Apr 2018 18:28 - 24 Apr 2018 18:29 #269635 by bendgar
How do you DUNE? was created by bendgar
I recently cobbled together a nice enough looking Dune set and want to get it to the table soon. The rules seem reasonable except for all the player abilities. I think I may hand out the factions days in advance as homework.
There are a lot of optional and advanced rules.
Some seem tied together like more spice blows / spice cost for attacks.
Anyway, I am curious...how do you play? Keep it simple? House-rules?
Last edit: 24 Apr 2018 18:29 by bendgar.
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24 Apr 2018 18:50 - 24 Apr 2018 18:51 #269685 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic How do you DUNE?
I was pondering this very topic earlier today, just in case I can get Dune on the table when I have folks over for gaming on Sunday.

Short answer: I use all the optional rules, none of the advanced rules, and none of the expansions.

My original gaming group used all of the rules in the base game, but considered the later expansions (duel, spice harvest) to be abominations. Another group that I played with used everything in the French edition, but their misunderstanding of the duel cards broke the game.

I've read the books, though I'm not obsessed with them. Because of that I dismiss the spice cost for attacks as an unthematic and unwelcome complication to the combat rules. Spice in the books was an extremely valuable commodity, useful for interstellar navigation, enhancing psionic ability, and prolonging lifespan. You wouldn't feed it to army. It also unbalances the factions significantly, making the game easier for the money-making factions, like the Guild and the Emperor.

The rules for a second spice blow each turn seem to exist only to support the spice cost for attacks. I don't like them because they shorten the lifespan of alliances, which makes the decision to enter into an alliance somewhat more trivial than it should be.
Last edit: 24 Apr 2018 18:51 by Shellhead. Reason: short answer
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24 Apr 2018 19:05 #269730 by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic How do you DUNE?
I have never had the opportunity to play Dune. I did play REX once, and really liked it. How different are they?
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24 Apr 2018 20:09 #269841 by Erik Twice
Replied by Erik Twice on topic How do you DUNE?
My recommendation

All optional rules (Additional powers)
No Advanced Rules (Two spice-blows per turn): This wrecks the game's balance.
No expansions (Neither is well-regarded)
--
Alliances between two players only. This is, by far, the most important rule to follow.
When you give another player spice as part of a deal, they don't get it until the next turn (This keeps the Emperor's power from being useless and prevents abuse)

hotseatgames wrote: I have never had the opportunity to play Dune. I did play REX once, and really liked it. How different are they?

Rex is FFG's attempt to modernize Dune by condensing the game to be shorter and removing much of the harshness. They are the same game, in the same sense a Hitchcock film and its modern remake are. If you liked Rex,well, try Dune because the difference in quality is staggering. I didn't think there would be much of a difference, but after playing Dune I thought every single change in Rex was for the worse, often game-breakingly so.

Basically, Rex has twice the spice (influence) than Dune did and ends in half the number of turns. Troops walk faster and the board is smaller, with less territories and less of a distance between strongholds. Think about any game you like and imagine how it would be to play if you had twice the troops and twice the resources available from the start, that's what happened with Rex. It's a far more aggressive, battle-driven game with higher bids and hence less of a focus on treachery and negotiation.

Going back to the movie example, it's like someone thought a film was too slow and decided that all the slow, tension-filled scenes should be removed to make room for action setpieces.

Either way, this change has massive, far-reaching effects. First, since the game was now much shorter, the revivals had to be massively increased. In Dune, factions could revive 1 or 2 troops per turn and leaders only came back when you exhausted every other leader you had. In Rex you can revive them every turn if needed. This turns a tense, difficult game into one that is much easier, and forgiving and hence less interesting.

These changes also tip the competitive balance of the game, to the point that many players who liked Rex at first ended abandoning it because of a lack of balance. Here's the issue: Since there's more combat and more shipping The Guild becomes significantly more powerful than it was in Dune, to the point it's clearly the best faction. Even better, they win if nobody else does by the game's end and since the game now ends much sooner it's much easier for them to win. And all these changes hurt the other factions.

FFG also tried to remove some of the harshness of the original game, which made the game significantly less interesting. The auction is a good example.

The interesting bit about the auction in Dune is that you don't know which cards to bid on and they are not all good. In fact, some of them are literally "useless" and do nothing but take space in your hand. In Rex, all cards are useful so players can't "bid wrong". This is less harsh, sure, but also defeats the point of the mechanic.

I'll be honest, I think Dune is one of the best games ever made, up there with Netrunner and Chess. Try to play it, specially if you liked Rex.
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24 Apr 2018 21:50 - 24 Apr 2018 21:56 #270021 by Da Bid Dabid
Replied by Da Bid Dabid on topic How do you DUNE?
What everyone already said. We basically use this rule set with the same changes as Twice:
www.starbasejeff.com/dune_rules.asp

Not sure if its a house rule or a clarification but if Fremen use Karama to ride a worm into a main city early in a turn, we let them use ornithopters that turn.

Edit: I wanted to add extra emphasis to keep karama cards. They seem ultra powerful and are, but taking them out will eliminate a huge strategic element of the game, and they usually play a big role in winning moves once you get a few games under your belt and know how to properly wield them.
Last edit: 24 Apr 2018 21:56 by Da Bid Dabid.
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24 Apr 2018 22:05 #270077 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic How do you DUNE?
Seriously, if you take out the hilarity of bidding out your ass only get “Trip to Gaumont” (which is a sex planet), what do you have left?
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24 Apr 2018 22:51 #270202 by bendgar
Replied by bendgar on topic How do you DUNE?
Thank you. Thank you all. This is exactly what I was looking for. Eric, your observations are always appreciated. Thank you Da Bid for the map file.

Ben

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25 Apr 2018 13:10 #271383 by Disgustipater
Replied by Disgustipater on topic How do you DUNE?
All faction abilities (including special faction karama powers). No Advanced combat or double spice blow.

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25 Apr 2018 15:51 #271492 by Disgustipater
Replied by Disgustipater on topic How do you DUNE?
Also, we limit alliances to two factions.

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25 Apr 2018 16:21 #271506 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic How do you DUNE?
I’ve done the two alliance thing, but the spin we’ve used this that no alliance of 3 or more can win.

Mostly we’ve just played as written, to be honest.
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25 Apr 2018 16:28 - 25 Apr 2018 16:28 #271507 by JoelCFC25
Replied by JoelCFC25 on topic How do you DUNE?
Pretty much echo everything already said. The last time I played we used the advanced combat rules (spice support for troops) for the first time and I didn't actually hate it--but I wouldn't recommend it for your first attempt (or even the first few).

Make sure everyone knows how horrible it is to lose lots of tokens in combat. Say this 3, 5, 10 times if you have to, you can't stress it enough for new players. It might seem exciting to commit a huge stack to a battle, but if you find most of your dudes in the Tanks it takes *F-O-R-E-V-E-R* to recover (especially with single spice blows and a tight economy). You don't want players basically sitting on the sidelines on CHOAM charity for multiple turns just making up the numbers at the table--they'll never want to play again!

Run away from battles or negotiate like hell unless you're pretty sure you can win.
Last edit: 25 Apr 2018 16:28 by JoelCFC25.
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25 Apr 2018 16:59 #271526 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic How do you DUNE?
One thing I find useful in teaching the game is to pitch the combat decision as “how much are you willing to lose to win the battle”.

Still one of the best combat resolution mechanics of all time.
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25 Apr 2018 20:20 #271614 by san il defanso
Replied by san il defanso on topic How do you DUNE?
It can be tempting to try to find one true way to play Dune, but from the beginning the game has resisted this. The original ruleset is kinda leaky, but it is really easy to constrain the interaction by trying to make the game less ambiguous. I think this is the temptation FFG fell into with Rex.

I agree on limiting alliances to two people, and on using advanced rules and karama powers, but NOT double spice blow and advanced combat. JoelCFC25 is right on about the combat. Not many games reinforce the idea that war is an enormous outlay of resources, but Dune definitely does.
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25 Apr 2018 22:53 #271692 by Ancient_of_MuMu
Replied by Ancient_of_MuMu on topic How do you DUNE?
I can't remember if it was an official rule or house rule but our rules for alliances were max of 2 unless playing with 6 then 3 was allowed, and the number of strongholds required for victory was increased by one per person in the alliance (3 for solo, 4 for 2 person alliance, all 5 for 3 person alliance).
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