- Posts: 4380
- Thank you received: 5722
×
Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)
Recent Topics paging, uploading images and preview bugs require a patch which has not yet been released.
×
Talk about the latest and greatest AT, and the Classics.
Interesting detail by CP on TOS
- Jackwraith
- Topic Author
- Away
- Ninja
- Maim! Kill! Burn!
Less
More
18 Jan 2014 22:51 - 20 Jan 2014 08:07 #170167
by Jackwraith
Interesting detail by CP on TOS was created by Jackwraith
There was a lengthy and well-written review of Battlelore 2nd Ed., the thread for which inevitably asked the question about expansions and the cost of same. Someone referenced the seemingly high price of the lieutenant expansion packs for Descent 2nd Ed., based on the fact that they only included one miniature. The OP threw together some back-of-the-envelope numbers and suggested that FFG was simply doing so as a method of profiteering on the game's popularity. Christian Petersen showed up with some more detail:
"JunJun,
Your math is interesting, but lacks a few very important notions.
Keep in mind that FFG sells it products to retail/distribution, and publishers only have revenue of about 40% to 45% of the retail price point. FFG's sees about $33 per copy of Descent sold.
Secondly, for miniatures, keep in mind that every unique mini is far more expensive than a repeat mini. For each unique figure, you need to pay for concept artwork, sculpting, and tooling. Repeat mini's are more "hits" on the tool (and for these you pay for materials, gluing, handling, and manufacturers' margin). Adding another 6 unique sculpts in the core set, would in fact be very expensive, far in excess of the proportion to raw number of minis. For miniatures with less play-time (such as the Lieutenants) we feel the significant extra price is in the best interest of the average customer (and provide tokens for these characters instead).
Instead, we are making the lieutenants available separately to those that want the maximum experience in their game, and we've tried hard for these packs to be FAR more than just a miniature accessory for a single campaign, and to make these at a very low SRP.
For reference, look at pricing of comparable individual miniatures for miniatures games (GW, Privateer Press, etc).
I'm confident that FFG provides the miniature, plus card, tokens, packaging (and the significant testing and development of the "Plot" cards) for an exceptional price. We are *thrilled* at the low SRP we've been able to price these at. Again, look at the comparative values out there.
Another issue with your math, is the notion of margin and print runs. Due to the high setup prices of plastic, printing in low volumes (such as the 1500 or 2000 you're guessing at) both printing and one-time costs are greatly more weighty. FFG sees nowhere near a 80% margin. I believe our margin on the Lieutenant packs are lower than the core set, in fact. Placing all the Lieutenant minis in "one box", would not significant lower the SRP, and would depress volumes more due the high SRP of the content (and we would not be able to afford the development time for the "plots").
That said, I appreciate the fact that you tried to quantify these facts. Hopefully, some of the above will help you in this. The math for publishers can be quite punishing and is unfortunately something that is often misunderstood by customers, making the publisher look exploitative when this is not the case.
Cheers,
Christian"
He's certainly right about the high setup costs of plastic compared to other materials, since plastic molds generally have to be metal, which are far more costly to make than the rubber molds that can be used for materials like pewter. However, pewter as a material is far more costly and more difficult to use and transport, which is why even minis companies like GW and PP are switching to resin (in addition to the greater/easier conversion possibilities for modelers.)
"JunJun,
Your math is interesting, but lacks a few very important notions.
Keep in mind that FFG sells it products to retail/distribution, and publishers only have revenue of about 40% to 45% of the retail price point. FFG's sees about $33 per copy of Descent sold.
Secondly, for miniatures, keep in mind that every unique mini is far more expensive than a repeat mini. For each unique figure, you need to pay for concept artwork, sculpting, and tooling. Repeat mini's are more "hits" on the tool (and for these you pay for materials, gluing, handling, and manufacturers' margin). Adding another 6 unique sculpts in the core set, would in fact be very expensive, far in excess of the proportion to raw number of minis. For miniatures with less play-time (such as the Lieutenants) we feel the significant extra price is in the best interest of the average customer (and provide tokens for these characters instead).
Instead, we are making the lieutenants available separately to those that want the maximum experience in their game, and we've tried hard for these packs to be FAR more than just a miniature accessory for a single campaign, and to make these at a very low SRP.
For reference, look at pricing of comparable individual miniatures for miniatures games (GW, Privateer Press, etc).
I'm confident that FFG provides the miniature, plus card, tokens, packaging (and the significant testing and development of the "Plot" cards) for an exceptional price. We are *thrilled* at the low SRP we've been able to price these at. Again, look at the comparative values out there.
Another issue with your math, is the notion of margin and print runs. Due to the high setup prices of plastic, printing in low volumes (such as the 1500 or 2000 you're guessing at) both printing and one-time costs are greatly more weighty. FFG sees nowhere near a 80% margin. I believe our margin on the Lieutenant packs are lower than the core set, in fact. Placing all the Lieutenant minis in "one box", would not significant lower the SRP, and would depress volumes more due the high SRP of the content (and we would not be able to afford the development time for the "plots").
That said, I appreciate the fact that you tried to quantify these facts. Hopefully, some of the above will help you in this. The math for publishers can be quite punishing and is unfortunately something that is often misunderstood by customers, making the publisher look exploitative when this is not the case.
Cheers,
Christian"
He's certainly right about the high setup costs of plastic compared to other materials, since plastic molds generally have to be metal, which are far more costly to make than the rubber molds that can be used for materials like pewter. However, pewter as a material is far more costly and more difficult to use and transport, which is why even minis companies like GW and PP are switching to resin (in addition to the greater/easier conversion possibilities for modelers.)
Last edit: 20 Jan 2014 08:07 by Jackwraith.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Michael Barnes
- Offline
- Mountebank
- HYPOCRITE
Less
More
- Posts: 16929
- Thank you received: 10375
19 Jan 2014 00:43 #170170
by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic Re: Interesting detail by CP on TOS
As much grief as Mr. Petersen and I have shared over the years, I really appreciate the handful of times that he's come out with complete transparency on issues like this. It's a far too uncommon thing, this kind of insight into the economics of making games. There is so much speculation and misunderstanding out there. Nice to have someone step in and say "this is how we do it, this is why we do it, and this is why it costs $X."
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Less
More
- Posts: 1728
- Thank you received: 771
19 Jan 2014 08:48 #170176
by DukeofChutney
Replied by DukeofChutney on topic Re: Interesting detail by CP on TOS
i backed Martin Wallaces Moonga Invaders ks. Martin is quickly learning this stuff the unfortunate way. Plastics are complex to produce. The only companies that do it really well are those like FFG that have built their business around it to an extent.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
19 Jan 2014 09:10 #170177
by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Re: Interesting detail by CP on TOS
I always enjoy CPs posts when he does this. I don't know if it's true, but I feel like he's had a 3rd beer, is idly browsing BGG and has a "fuck no" moment.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
19 Jan 2014 09:51 #170178
by Sevej
Replied by Sevej on topic Re: Interesting detail by CP on TOS
My favorite publisher.
I know FFG takes a low margin because even Book Depository carries their stuff.
I know FFG takes a low margin because even Book Depository carries their stuff.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Less
More
- Posts: 573
- Thank you received: 685
19 Jan 2014 10:42 #170181
by engelstein
Replied by engelstein on topic Re: Interesting detail by CP on TOS
I've only met Christian very briefly once or twice, but he was extremely decent and gracious with my son Brian when he interned there last summer, taking him out to lunch, advising him, etc.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Sagrilarus
- Offline
- D20
- Pull the Goalie
Less
More
- Posts: 8740
- Thank you received: 7358
19 Jan 2014 11:47 #170184
by Sagrilarus
Replied by Sagrilarus on topic Re: Interesting detail by CP on TOS
. . . and is polite enough to leave out health care, unemployment insurance, energy costs, rent & mortgage, shipping inbound and outbound, errored runs . . . all of which is in the mix as well. As it stands he's keeping it mighty simple and making a solid case.
S.
S.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
19 Jan 2014 11:53 #170185
by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Re: Interesting detail by CP on TOS
^Good point. I love the calculation that people do about projects where they leave nothing for paying themselves, any employees, taxes, etc. I think it's a major kickstarter problem for people who've never owned a business or really produced a project. Shit gets really expensive when you actually pay professionals to do things and leave this BGG realm of volunteers for everything.
Reminds me of Valley Games' "volunteers" for a 300K kickstarter project. CP isn't in this kind of BS "business"
www.kickstarter.com/projects/1325766284/...rd-game/posts/710223
Reminds me of Valley Games' "volunteers" for a 300K kickstarter project. CP isn't in this kind of BS "business"
www.kickstarter.com/projects/1325766284/...rd-game/posts/710223
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dr. Mabuse
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
19 Jan 2014 16:52 #170191
by ioticus
Replied by ioticus on topic Re: Interesting detail by CP on TOS
Team Covenant did an interesting recent interview with CP on YouTube. It's worth a watch.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Jackwraith
- Topic Author
- Away
- Ninja
- Maim! Kill! Burn!
Less
More
- Posts: 4380
- Thank you received: 5722
19 Jan 2014 19:01 #170203
by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Re: Interesting detail by CP on TOS
Here it is:
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Moderators: Gary Sax
Time to create page: 0.180 seconds