Study in Emerald Impressions?

I agree strongly with Pete about this. I think a background with tabletop minis games creates and shapes this type of viewpoint. If that sort of thing is important to you it is likely what was helping initially draw a player into miniatures gaming. I'd wager that once you've dabbled in that realm you tend to apply and reinforce those ideals to board games as well.

The problem with Stronghold is more than just components. It's a bad mismatch of theme and mechanics. A siege game should not be a VP race. When a core mechanic like that is euro, the cubes are a more honest representation of the nature of the game than minis, because minis would suggest some element of dude-killing action.

Ha! I can see it now:

I've put my blue cube...er...soldier... here, which kills 2 of your green cubes..er...orcs.

YOU FUCKING COCKSUC...er....CUBESUCKER! I NEEDED THOSE CUBes.....er....orcs.

Moriarty, Holmes, Vladimir Burtsev and Vera Figner are in Paris.
Moriarty is controlled by Agent Monday, and can assassinate both royals and other agents, providing two bombs.
Holmes is controlled by Agent Thursday, and brings the same benefits.
Vladimir Burtsev is also controlled by Agent Thursday. Normally he cannot assassinate anyone though he provides a bomb. He is currently a vampire, however, and as such may assassinate just about anyone he pleases.
Vera Figner is controlled by Agent Wednesday, and can assassinate royalty, and brings one bomb.

In addition to this, Agent Thursday has placed two points of influence on Paris, attempting to wrest it from the control of Agent Monday, who had placed three points.

I personally can't see how all this information can be presented effectively with miniatures.

Influence isn't people, by the way. Influence is a whisper in someone's ear, a newspaper cutting delivered to a cabal in a bierkeller, a scented note left on a breakfast tray, a strong-arm threat in a dark alley. It's abstract in the game, using abstract tokens is the correct approach.

This isn't a dudes on a map game. It's only superficially a Yogsothothery game. It's really a game about the hidden plots of anarchists and empires around the turn of the 20th C. From Wallace's own notes, heavily influenced by the fiction, "The Man Who Was Thursday". Personal opinions on the graphic design are fine. Personally I find the board delightful.

err.... will someone please buy me this fucking game?

ThirstyMan wrote: err.... will someone please buy me this fucking game?

I tried that already. Didn't work, and I had to shell out for it myself.

JEM wrote: Moriarty, Holmes, Vladimir Burtsev and Vera Figner Miniatures are in Paris.
Moriarty is controlled by Agent Monday, and can assassinate both royals and other agents, providing two bombs. We know this because Moriarty's card tells us this.
Holmes is controlled by Agent Thursday, and brings the same benefits. Likewise his card tells us this.
Vladimir Burtsev is also controlled by Agent Thursday. Normally he cannot assassinate anyone though he provides a bomb. He is currently a vampire, however, and as such may assassinate just about anyone he pleases. Which is all explained on his card.
Vera Figner is controlled by Agent Wednesday, and can assassinate royalty, and brings one bomb.Again, there's this informative little card for her which illustrates this.

In addition to this, Agent Thursday has placed two points of influence on Paris, attempting to wrest it from the control of Agent Monday, who had placed three points. These lovely little Victorian Lord miniatures of little detectives in Agent Thursday's color tells us that the miniatures, which represent influence, are hers(his)

I personally can't see how all this information can be presented effectively with miniatures.

I'm certainly glad I could help illuminate the subject.

Influence isn't people, by the way. Influence is a whisper in someone's ear, a newspaper cutting delivered to a cabal in a bierkeller, a scented note left on a breakfast tray, a strong-arm threat in a dark alley. It's abstract in the game, using abstract tokens is the correct approach.

Someone has to be there to whisper, someone had to write the paper, and deliver it; someone had to make the threat. I would think that it's the players agent, which is a person, and which can be represented as something other than a sorry little nondescript cube. Are you saying that a cube carries the same sort of visceral power to represent a super-secret revolutionary agent or super-secret Cthulhu worshipping informant as a lovely little miniature? If so, why do any games have miniatures?

This isn't a dudes on a map game. It's only superficially a Yogsothothery game. It's really a game about the hidden plots of anarchists and empires around the turn of the 20th C. From Wallace's own notes, heavily influenced by the fiction, "The Man Who Was Thursday". Personal opinions on the graphic design are fine. Personally I find the board delightful.

Like you said, personal tastes. You just can't stroll in and make the argument that cubes exude theme and setting as well as a lovely little miniature, and expect that many people (at least here) will agree.

Allow me to forward this link to people who would agree with your standpoint:
www.opinionatedgamers.com

One problem with that example Pete are that you'd need some attachment to indicate that an agent has become a vampire, or a unique vampire mini for each agent.

The bigger issue is that every bit of information that you have coming from the card is going to be hidden until that card is played, when it is not hidden information. Which would lead to a lot of this:

Player 1: "How many bombs does this agent give?"
Player 2: "2 bombs."
Player 1: "Can she assassinate royalty or agents?"
Player 1: "I think just agents, but I don't have her card in hand."

Having that info on the agent chit makes it much easier, and allows you to plot and scheme without asking other people questions that might tip off others about your plots and schemes. The cubes are just markers of influence- how else are you going to track that? Especially since they get places on cards and cities, which are two different sizes. Anything bigger and you obscure too much information.

I can see someone wanting to pimp out their copy, but the provided stuff does what it needs to do.

There's also the thing that Treefrog is a relatively small publisher, and doing good minis takes a significant amount of effort. You need to solve the design issues that come up with where do you represent the info, which Ochobee gets into. Having reference cards is neat, but because cards cycle through the deck, you now need a deck card plus a reference card for each little dude. And you have to make each little dude distinct enough to be told apart, since there are now ~25 small Victorian people you need to distinguish between. And you have to have some kind of control marker for each of them, since anyone can recruit them.

So then you're looking at creating, a bunch of unique sculpts, so you have to hire an artist to do that. Then you have to find the plastics manufacturer who will do a good job, at the volume that you need, at a price where the game won't cost a bazillion dollars, and when your company's never done that before. Sweet, you've finished that part, now need to deal with the process of getting the molds and casting right, which means either a person on the ground at the factory, or shipping proof sets back and forth to your company's home base in New Zealand. That's probably cost effective. As a result, you wind up with an area control game with little plastic dudes representing an abstract concept on an abstract map of Europe. Cool!

I totally love a board full of minis, but they're not realistic for every publisher, and they're not even really workable for every game. Sure, they look neat, but they present their own sets of problems. Try playing the old Age of Empires 3 game from Eagle. That was also an area control game, but using plastic minis for everything. There were four different sculpts for the four types of colonists. Turns out that masses of little European dudes standing together in a space are really hard to tell apart. That's an instance where cardboard or wood probably would have worked better.

For dude on a map army games, minis all day long. For representing a handful of iconic characters on the board, yeah boy, plastic dudes. For something like this, I'm cool with cubes and counters.

Chaz wrote: There's also the thing that Treefrog is a relatively small publisher, and doing good minis takes a significant amount of effort.

Moongha Invaders anyone?

boardgamegeek.com/thread/1212518/kickstarter-cash-flow-problems