CE - A Euro?

I'm sure this has been debated before, but I got to thinking about it with these FIVE threads. Shouldn't we really consider CE as a euro?

Victory points, no player elimination, thin theme, etc.

I just wanted to start a similar thread about the fact that quite a few people label Civilization Ameritrash. It doesn't even have dice and the trading isn't that vicious either without the expansion.

I'm pretty certain it's a wargame.

CE is definitely not a Euro. It has probably the largest amount of player interaction of any game ever made, there is player elimination (although it just comes in the form of a player being neutered for the rest of the game), and there is combat constantly throughout the game. The game also has a great narrative to it, albeit you might have to stretch to find it at first.

It's about alien races battling it out for control of the universe, not farming in the middle ages.

LA

Schweig! wrote:

I just wanted to start a similar thread about the fact that quite a few people label Civilization Ameritrash. It doesn't even have dice and the trading isn't that vicious either without the expansion.

I'm pretty certain it's a wargame.

Confusion about which category to list a game is why I haven't listed any favourites yet. I'm probably overthinking things but I couldn't decide on whether to list Heroscape under Ameritrash or Miniatures and Tide of Iron under Ameritrash, Miniatures or Wargame. Perhaps one game can appear in more than one category for the same user?

Anyway, to keep Jack's thread on track, in my mind Cosmic Encounter is leaning toward Ameritrash on the Ameritrash/Eurogame continuum. And it is a continuum as many games feature elements from both genres.

Last Alchemist wrote:

CE is definitely not a Euro. It has probably the largest amount of player interaction of any game ever made, there is player elimination (although it just comes in the form of a player being neutered for the rest of the game), and there is combat constantly throughout the game. The game also has a great narrative to it, albeit you might have to stretch to find it at first.

It's about alien races battling it out for control of the universe, not farming in the middle ages.

LA

Settlers is definitely a euro and it has player interaction.

True, there is combat in CE, but it's controlled. I can't purposely choose to attack who I want as I can in an ameritrash game. And neutering isn't elimination.

Lot's of euros aren't about farming.

Don't get me wrong, I love CE, and personally could care less what category the games fall under. I just think it's interesting that CE is held as the classic in one field, when in all actuality it really should be in another. It just hit the scene about 20 years before it's true genre was defined. Makes it even more of an important title, don't ya think?

On a different note, people putting their AT lists in alphabetical order should be disqualified.

Cosmic Encounter has its own category. It's called "Cosmic Encounter." Like most Eon/Future Pastimes games, it really does defy easy description. And it was around for about 20 years before the OCD need for labeling everything took over gaming, so I think it's earned its own special category.

Now, in terms of the current lists — which I realize are in the spirit of good fun and maybe a bit of debate — I guess I'd lean toward an AT categorization. There's massive interaction, there's "combat" on literally every single turn, there's definitely a randomness (or perhaps "limited chaos") factor, and it's reasonably thematic. Reading the alien descriptions helps with that last part. I won't claim that the theme isn't a bit on the thin side, but it's 50 times better than Race for the Spreadsheet, which has never made me feel, even in the tiniest way, like I was out there conquering the cosmos.

Vote: Lord of the Rings.

Goddamnit!

Vote: AT.

It's also joyously not balanced, and proud of it. That is not a Euro characteristic.

Jack Hooligan wrote:

I'm sure this has been debated before, but I got to thinking about it with these FIVE threads. Shouldn't we really consider CE as a euro?

Victory points, no player elimination, thin theme, etc.

Don't forget the bidding.

I think it fits right in to the pre-Puerto Rico style of Euro (think Settlers, El Grande, Tigris & Euphrates, Tikal, Intrigue, etc.)

I'm going to go against conventional wisdom and say all of those old Eon games are proto-euros. (Yes, even Dune.) They were designed to be the antithesis of Risk. Mechanisms always came before Theme. They are full of bidding and deterministic combat. Players don't get eliminated. They don't take all day to play.

If the Eon design philosophy had caught on when CE and Dune first made a splash we might have had a Euro boom 15 years early.

I think what killed this game for me is the fact Euro gamers choked the life out of it for me with overanalysis.

Some of the wacky assed powers in the game allowed over analysis to be possible.

The thing about categories is that, if you define them too broadly, then they become useless. If you consider Cosmic Encounter to be a Euro, then you'll have to do some fancy explaining to keep lots of other games out of the Euro basket. Consider:

Magic: The Gathering
- theme is obviously pasted on
- game is a race to 20 VPs
- derived from CE, another alleged Euro
- resembles many Kosmos 2-player games

Clue/Cluedo
- theme doesn't make sense, eg. how can you be the murderer and not know it?
- logical deduction is a popular Euro trope
- no elimination
- can't directly attack another player

Dune
- derived from CE
- has auctions
- battle is conducted using a system of closed bids, like in CE
- game is a race to 3/5 strongholds

If Cosmic Encounter is a Euro, then damn near everything else is, too.

The Spiel Des Jahres award was first granted in 1979, and the first SdJ winner that is obviously in the Eurogame style is Top Secret Spies, in 1986. To consider anything that was published earlier than the mid-80s a Euro is historical revisionism.

rayito2702 wrote:

Jack Hooligan wrote:

I'm sure this has been debated before, but I got to thinking about it with these FIVE threads. Shouldn't we really consider CE as a euro?

Victory points, no player elimination, thin theme, etc.

Don't forget the bidding.

I think it fits right in to the pre-Puerto Rico style of Euro (think Settlers, El Grande, Tigris & Euphrates, Tikal, Intrigue, etc.)

I'm going to go against conventional wisdom and say all of those old Eon games are proto-euros. (Yes, even Dune.) They were designed to be the antithesis of Risk. Mechanisms always came before Theme. They are full of bidding and deterministic combat. Players don't get eliminated. They don't take all day to play.

If the Eon design philosophy had caught on when CE and Dune first made a splash we might have had a Euro boom 15 years early.

What a load of utter fucking crap.

Southernman wrote:

rayito2702 wrote:

Jack Hooligan wrote:

I'm sure this has been debated before, but I got to thinking about it with these FIVE threads. Shouldn't we really consider CE as a euro?

Victory points, no player elimination, thin theme, etc.

Don't forget the bidding.

I think it fits right in to the pre-Puerto Rico style of Euro (think Settlers, El Grande, Tigris & Euphrates, Tikal, Intrigue, etc.)

I'm going to go against conventional wisdom and say all of those old Eon games are proto-euros. (Yes, even Dune.) They were designed to be the antithesis of Risk. Mechanisms always came before Theme. They are full of bidding and deterministic combat. Players don't get eliminated. They don't take all day to play.

If the Eon design philosophy had caught on when CE and Dune first made a splash we might have had a Euro boom 15 years early.

What a load of utter fucking crap.

Enlighten us.

This thing has Euro all over it. The only thing keeping it out of that camp is it's release date. Don't know why that seems so upsetting.

Juniper wrote:

Magic: The Gathering
Clue/Cluedo
Dune

If Cosmic Encounter is a Euro, then damn near everything else is, too.

Three games hardly represent 'everything else'.
Dune has already been discussed as a possible Euro. Magic, with it's CE ties could be argued as one. I could go besides the bullets you pointed out, it's generally a more euro-style heads-down game as opposed to the rowdiness of a ThunderRoad, Wrasslin, or DungeonQuest. And Clue? Really that's what your bringing? I'd wrap that into something else like Monopoly. Not Ameritrash nor Euro (the main 'hobby' genres), but more 'Family'.

This is getting off the point though. There isn't a need to re-classify, or hell even classify in the first place, but when all is said and done CE has far more in common with the Settlers line of games than Risk. And it's interesting to see it listed as one of the 'top five' of a genre, when really it has little in common with the rest.

Collect data on the top 5 AT games we listed vs the top 5 Euros. I would pretty much bet if we got down to it, CE would have more in common with the top 5 Euros. It'll take more than pictures of aliens to convince otherwise.

I fail to see anything even remotley Euro about the highly chaotic CE. Sure, you can hair split it until it looks like a Euro, but name any game and I can do that. People do it all the time on BGG, who can forget the claims that Arkham Horror was a Euro?

But the fact is AT is not just "Risk".

You can sit here and bullshit about it 'till the cows come home, but the limus test for what is and isn't AT is simple:

Who is the crowd that is playing it?
AT fans.