Developmental Value in Gaming?

I'm pretty sure there are sound developmental advantages for the tactile feedback in building Lego compared to Minecraft, but I would have to come back with some published articles on that. There's also a lot of evidence that seems to indicate "being bored" time is becoming increasingly diminished and is much more important than given credit for. Sweden of course is a lot more progressive in these areas (child care, family development, social care) but it fits my way of thinking. YMMV. I'd rather my kids not get into video games, ironically the kid up the road (American dad) is already reenacting and discussing all the cool head shot sniper kills he does (of course, as Matt said in the OP, its not like video games means "violent shit" only, but I do not think Minecraft is equivalent to LEGO not for young children anyway, mine are 4 and 1, the 4 year old used to like the ipad a bit, and the TOCA BOCA apps seemed a great sandbox way to have fun without rules and that I guess would count as a video game.


One important difference they talk about here a lot between "making shit up" (ie imagination) and "content" (video games, TV) is that the former leads to CHILD CREATED relationships, content and interaction, whereas the latter is ADULT CREATED and pushed onto the kid. The classic case they discuss here a lot is the difference between kids "who used to run around in the forest and play cowboys and indians and cops and robbers, and pretend to shoot each other (and even pretend to die)" compared to playing video games with shooting, and overwhelmingly the evidence suggests that the former leads to a healthy development of the kid processing these concepts (violence, conflict, even death) ON THEIR TERMS whereas increasingly the content pushed to them via digital media is presented by adults, from an adult perspective with excessive visual stimulation and description of the minutae of the physical act, and a corresponding dissociation from the act itself, and the role of the "attacker" in it.

Interesing stuff, but I've learned better than to argue about shit like this on the fucking internet, as that gets you literally nowhere, so, there it is. I'm not going to follow up on this, just presenting it for the sake of it I guess

We limit television to maybe 20 minutes a day or less. Very little. And absolutely zero ad-supported television. We are cordcutters, so what they watch is Shaun The Sheep or Yo Gabba Gabba on Amazon Prime/Netflix.

For the older kids, and even the 2yo a little, we allow some more interactive time with screens. I think MINECRAFT is as rewarding an activity as Lego, and I have no objections to time spent on JUST DANCE, POKEMON, or PICROSS 3D or anything like that. Hell, I game all the time, why shouldn't my kids?

That said, we are sabbatarians, so no one uses screens for 25 hours a week--Friday night to Saturday evening. That's a guaranteed island of no electronics (or phones, emails, anything) every week that keeps us all talking, boardgaming, reading, napping, what have you. This is very much a practice-what-you-preach thing. The kids know I don't do electronics then, so they know they can't do electronics then. It'd be weird to take the iPad out of a kids' hands just so I could go play HEARTHSTONE on it.

Stay engaged with your kids. Be it reading, gaming, kite-flying, whatever. I think a lot of damage folks assign to screentime has more to do with parents checking out on parenting than it does with whatever is happening on the screen.

ldsdbomber wrote: One important difference they talk about here a lot between "making shit up" (ie imagination) and "content" (video games, TV) is that the former leads to CHILD CREATED relationships, content and interaction, whereas the latter is ADULT CREATED and pushed onto the kid. The classic case they discuss here a lot is the difference between kids "who used to run around in the forest and play cowboys and indians and cops and robbers, and pretend to shoot each other (and even pretend to die)" compared to playing video games with shooting, and overwhelmingly the evidence suggests that the former leads to a healthy development of the kid processing these concepts (violence, conflict, even death) ON THEIR TERMS whereas increasingly the content pushed to them via digital media is presented by adults, from an adult perspective with excessive visual stimulation and description of the minutae of the physical act, and a corresponding dissociation from the act itself, and the role of the "attacker" in it.

Great paragraph right there and something I hadn't thought about.

I also believe in 'bored time'. We take a trip to the in-laws about once every other month. It's a 3-3.5hr drive and we don't allow any sort of technology in play during this time. I think we've reaped rewards here as the kids are content reading, singing along to songs, or more importantly having some deeper discussions. Allowing the kids multiple hours to just sit and look out windows seems to provide time for some personal questions to come up.

In the long run, the kids seem to be pretty patient and we're proud of them for that.

However, longer car rides (like a 3.5 hr ride isn't long...remember I live in Texas...3hrs is down the street) will see a movie pop up on the kindle or some time to play apps on phones.

Sagrilarus wrote: Minecraft is fine, but Super Smash Brothers is like having Robin Williams and an ounce of coke in the house.

I must have missed this line on first pass, but caused a loud laugh burst on second read.

That's funny right there.

I was thinking of getting smash brothers, because we played the hell out of it on the N64 in college. But then again, at that age and with those relationships, we were ribbing each other pretty fierce. Thinking about it now, I'm not so sure it's the type of game that'll work as well in a casual family setting like say NintendoLand. I think NintendoLand and Pushmo World will find their way as gifts this year.

ldsdbomber wrote: One important difference they talk about here a lot between "making shit up" (ie imagination) and "content" (video games, TV) is that the former leads to CHILD CREATED relationships, content and interaction, whereas the latter is ADULT CREATED and pushed onto the kid. The classic case they discuss here a lot is the difference between kids "who used to run around in the forest and play cowboys and indians and cops and robbers, and pretend to shoot each other (and even pretend to die)" compared to playing video games with shooting, and overwhelmingly the evidence suggests that the former leads to a healthy development of the kid processing these concepts (violence, conflict, even death) ON THEIR TERMS whereas increasingly the content pushed to them via digital media is presented by adults, from an adult perspective with excessive visual stimulation and description of the minutae of the physical act, and a corresponding dissociation from the act itself, and the role of the "attacker" in it.

See I think the issue here is more with passive vs active entertainment rather than the form in which interaction takes place. Lumping in Minecraft (it's such a great easy example!) with watching Pokemon cartoons is doing a serious disservice.

I agree there is value in tactile experiences, but just the same there is the same level of value in exploring and experiencing virtual interaction. If anything, as a society we are going to have more and more happening digitally.

Even with movies, I know I got countless hours of CREATIVE play based on cartoons used to sell action figures, and pretending to be Indiana Jones in neighborhood, or "playing" D&D with sticks and exploring the woods. Even passive media can be the springboard to immensely creative play.

I think the thing is that short of some elements of media, kids want to explore tons of things and tons of facets of interaction. A lot of kids who are severely limited in something because "parent said so" tend to flip it back and then fetishize and covet whatever it is that's being held back from them, which they then lose their shit over when they are older and you can't just control them all the time. Only now they don't have the developed, and self guided tool box for how to navigate life. How many kids flunk out of freshman year of college because they can't handle the freedom?

Also, thanks to this thread for a big inspiration in what I think I'm going to write about next. Gotta meet with my academic advisor but I think I'm going to trace the history, and subsequent actual data, on all the things that older generations/parents have decried as the death knell of society and the younger generation. Like did rock n roll destroy the fabric of society or not?

MattLoter wrote: Also, thanks to this thread for a big inspiration in what I think I'm going to write about next. Gotta meet with my academic advisor but I think I'm going to trace the history, and subsequent actual data, on all the things that older generations/parents have decried as the death knell of society and the younger generation. Like did rock n roll destroy the fabric of society or not?

I'm probably misreading your intent, but I hope you haven't gotten the impression from us that we as some sort of collective think videogames are the end of society or anything. I think we've all agreed they can be a fine form of entertainment, and I'll even be bringing in a few more next month for the holidays.

It's only a matter of understanding what they have to offer and not to allow it to consume all our kid's time. Sure, that could be true of many things, but this discussion has been focused on videogames.

No, he's saying every generation gets this wrong. Every generation cooks up some demons that threaten the children and the fabric of society (free love, rock n roll, flappers, reefer, gangs, devil worshippers, &c) and they are wrong every time. Video games are getting a lot of heat this cycle, that's all.

MattLoter wrote: Like did rock n roll destroy the fabric of society or not?

A little bit, yeah. That's a good thing though. The fabric of society should be ripped up occasionally like a forest fire cleaning up the bush. I think that human society needs that push and pull. We need the older generation to question all progress and the younger to fight for it. You can focus on the fact that kids fought for X and it turned out ok or you can think that maybe because of the fighting against X by the older generation it turned out ok. That struggle can make you much more careful and conscientious. You can't know which it was but no social change, technological or otherwise, should be co-opted lightly. That struggle between generations helps us ALL to think about our place in society and what choices we are making as a species. It helps us ALL to become better people. Young and old need each other.

For us here in this thread... no one has said video game would ruin the fabric of society, they've just said that kids need other pursuits as well. After reading stuff on here I let my kid play Nintendo Land with me for 30 min yesterday... at THREE (which is probably too young but what the hell). Most parents outside of the hobby will be much more strict about this stuff then we are on a geek niche site. I look forward to playing games with my son, video and board.. I also hope to jam with him one day too though, if he's into it. Right now? We're signing up for Martial Arts together and he is super excited about it. Me too actually, I've never studied Jiu-Jitsu before.

Maybe...but I don't think we're getting it wrong. Perhaps I've got blinders on to what I'm saying, but I feel what we're talking about goes hand and hand with watching too much TV or eating too much candy. These are all things kids would gorge themselves on if left to their own devices. No different than when we were kids. My parents didn't let me watch endless television while bombing myself on sugar cereals all day.

Robots and AI...now _there's_ something we could discuss about seriously changing the fabric of society...*puts on tin foil helmet*...

JonJacob wrote: We're signing up for Martial Arts together and he is super excited about it. Me too actually, I've never studied Jiu-Jitsu before.

Ha! My wife and I were talking about this very topic last week. My son took taekwondo and loved it. We're considering doing jiu-jitsu, but with one of us with him.

Going to be an awesome time for y'all!