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Bugs: Recent Topics Paging, Uploading Images & Preview (11 Dec 2020)

Recent Topics paging, uploading images and preview bugs require a patch which has not yet been released.

× Talk about collectible card here.

Hearthstone Players!

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09 May 2020 17:17 #310117 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
Just finished watching Trump do yet another Libram Paladin experiment, which failed miserably and dropped him to the bottom of Gold division. Of course, he was playing Pure Libram Paladin, which is much worse because it doesn't allow access to the saving grace of Paladin decks since the beta: Wild Pyromancer. But even Kibler's versions that included the latter weren't really worthwhile. So, Paladin is, once again, dumpster tier except for one deck (Murlocs) which is a pretty average aggro deck that can only occasionally compete with the real aggro deck (DH) but often can't apply enough pressure to get past all the board clears of Control. It's also boring as shit. How many years in a row do you want to play the same standard minions (Warleader, Seer, Tidecaller)? This is the same problem they've run into in almost every "Year Of" with Paladin because the "EXCITING NEW MECHANIC" can't get over the hump against the same, old stuff that other classes always do, unless it's something almost literally gamebreaking like Baku/Grenn. Both Paladin quests? Subpar. Secret Paladin? Worked once with the cheatingest card devised to that point (Mysterious Challenger) and when the dev team thought "wacky stuff!" was the way for the game to go. Otherwise, (Rhyssa, etc.), Secrets are a weight on the class Basic/Classic set. No one likes them. No one uses them. But they sure do show up a lot when you drop your Crusader to fill your hand with random Paladin dreck. At the moment, Paladin Secrets are actually better for Secret Rogue, since it means they only have to spend 1 mana to get another, often more usable spell.

The problem with Librams is that it's set up to be a midrange deck, but it depends on card combos in order to work. That's not how midrange/tempo is supposed to function. Every card is supposed to be useful in and of itself and they mesh together to create a whole. Instead, you need a River Crocolisk to make your Libram of Wisdom a decent cost, because no one wants to pay 2 mana to give a minion +1/+1. They thought Libram of Justice might be similar to Muster for Battle... except that the latter was usable 2 turns earlier and gave you board presence, while the Libram just encourages you to use your face on a now 6/1 Illidari. But if you have the 2-card combo, you'll be fine! That's right. Have your trusty Pyromancer on hand or, if you're still alive on turn 9(!), follow Libram with a Consecration and you'll be in business. Hey, maybe your Libram was even discounted! Doesn't matter. You still need the other half of the combo to make it work. (This neatly sidesteps the fact that Hunters can pay 1 more mana and get a 7/6 dragon (Board presence!) and the same effect.)

So, if everything in your class depends on card combos, what do you need to make that work? The one thing that Paladin doesn't have: draw. There are three draw cards in standard Paladin: Blessing of Wisdom, Hammer of Wrath, and Hand of Ad'al. The last is amazing at almost any point in the game. Hammer is occasionally worthwhile. Blessing is bad, like most 1-cost cards. And most Paladin cards, most especially Librams, are dependent on that accelerated draw to function. Warlock has been burdened with a lot of "less than" cards over the years because of how good Life Tap is. You'd think that Paladin, more hard up for good drawing cards than any other class, would have a fair number of "more than" cards to make up for it, right? So when you did get the draw at the start of the turn, you'd think "Aha!" on a regular basis? This is the whole premise of Pure Paladin, right? That the class is so flooded with good cards that you can ignore all neutral stuff to get the bonuses of Zealot and Crusader? Yeah... no.

Here's an interesting side note: Healing was overcosted when the game started. That's why Priest was so bad and remained so for so long and why no one ever touched things like Holy Light. The devs later figured out their error and slowly changed healing effects to have some impact. Now you have stuff like Renew (1 mana for 3 health and Discover a card) and it's why Amber Watcher seems so good. It does as much healing as Lay on Hands for 2 less mana AND gives you a 4/6 minion (Board presence!) But, the fact remains that healing is still a low-impact mechanic. I watched Trump revel in the fact that he had both Amber Watchers in his hand against a Demon Hunter and then watched his astonishment as he lost despite playing both of them. All he did was drop a vanilla minion that doesn't affect the board and delay his death for (maybe) another turn. It's better than just a heal like Holy Light, but it's still not good enough. That's basically what you could say about the whole class: "Better than trash cards, but not good enough."

The key may be looking at how many Basic/Classic cards are still used by Paladin decks. I think there are two: Consecration and Truesilver Champion, and the latter is much rarer than it used to be. Until the class gets an overhaul like Priest did or some serious buffs midseason, it's basically dead in the water (Like Shaman, the other Murloc class...)

/rant
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11 May 2020 18:26 #310193 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
Pretty fair criticism, all around, on Paladin. It's not in great shape, and like Priest, it is burdened with decisions made five years ago about what kind of cards it's "allowed" to have.

1-cost Secrets shouldn't do much. Make a little 2/1 to dive in front of an attacker. Punish playing some fatty. That all seems fine. But it means the basic core set is laden with these "little" cards that can't really move the needle on what Paladin does and means. Not to mention you don't want them in your actual deck, because drawing one is almost universally terrible. That's what made Mysterious Challenger good--once you played it, your deck was great, all the shitty cards were pulled out and you might even get something cool to happen because of them. If they made a card that was 6/6 for 6, "Battlecry: Take all the shitty little cards out of your deck," people would play it. After turn 6 you want to be doing big things, not drawing Repentance.

I'm not mad that Wild Pyromancer is good and is a neutral card. It's not like things would be better if it was limited to just Paladin, thematically. I managed to pull off some wins (a streak!) with (Libram-less) Control Paladin this month, just to see if it was a doable thing. It's tough. I needed Wild Pyro to handle Warlock and Demon Hunter. It's not negotiable. Not sure WHAT'S negotiable with respect to Demon Hunter; that deck is poisoning the game. At the top end it was Alexstrasza Dragonqueen and Tirion Fordring. You need to cheat stuff out to win, that's just how this game works this Standard season. Paying full cost is a sucker's game. Paladin has access to enough decent dragons to maintain some measure of the board and can exploit asymmetric removal to keep poking, but it's a slog.

I helped my kid get out of "Apprentice" and that takes forever. We didn't want to play Demon Hunter, so that means we only win two out of three games, so it took a LONG time. There are ten packs and a sweet Legendary-laden deck waiting at the end, so it's worth it, obviously. But they could tune the length of it WAY down. Or give "Credit" for losses or something.
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11 May 2020 19:28 #310196 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
Exactly. The deck thinning property of MS was the other half of what made the card so good, in addition to cheating on both mana cost (4 or 5 spells for free) and card draw (cards drawn and played for free.) It's the only thing that made Paladin Secrets worth it and it was completely broken. The aggravating thing is that a couple of the Secrets that Paladin has been given in recent times have been good just based on their effect (DShield a minion; all your little dudes get +2 health; draw cards because your opponent played a bunch.) Those effects are great. But you don't want to draw them when you're behind on the board on turn 6 because it doesn't do anything about the two 4/2s and two 2/2s that your opponent has out there. (You know what sounds good there? Explosive Trap. Or Flame Ward. Or Ice Barrier. Oh, wait! Get Down will stop one of them...) Because he's not going to cast a spell or play three cards or bother attacking your minions. He's going to beat your face and win.

I think Wild Pyromancer is a great card. It should be available for decks that want to engage in some of that self-sacrifice that Warlock and Warrior are supposed to be famed for. I just object to the fact that it's, as you say, non-negotiable for success in every Paladin control deck since the closed beta. The reason for that is the same reason that every Priest deck, without question, ran Cleric: it was the only good card in the Basic set. That's what I meant by only Truesilver and Consec appearing and generally only in control decks which, again, are bereft of options outside of Wild Pyromancer. The fact that the only other deck continues to be Murlocs now that the janky OTK deck is finally gone has the same issue: How many more years do you want to be throwing the same frogs at your opponent's face? How many more years do they look at the board and calculate the impact of Warleader on turn 4 or 5? How many more years do you reserve two slots for Pyro and two slots for either Equality or the newest equivalent (if not both) while trying to get the latest mechanic (Reborn, Librams) or the oldest one (Secrets) to work? It's just tired, at this point.

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12 May 2020 05:22 - 12 May 2020 05:22 #310207 by Matt Thrower
Replied by Matt Thrower on topic Hearthstone Players!
Not having a great time with the current meta. There are very broadly two healthy states for HS: a balanced meta where mid-range decks thrive and a polarised one where extreme aggro and control models are the way to go. We're in the latter right now, and I vastly prefer the former.

I've been running Dragon Hunter for a while now, through most of the last expansion, and I'm grateful it's still viable so I've stuck with it. I tried Demon Hunter and found the endless face, face, face depressing, even though the concept of things like Outcast is pretty fun in theory. I tried Spell Druid too and found the endless block, block, block depressing even though it clearly takes a lot of skill to play well.

Priest can get in the bin. Blizzard have made a class that can only be played effectively by making the game as miserable as possible for the other player: in a tempo-based game, that's the only way a wholly defensive class can work. The fact it's not been competitive for a while has been a blessing on the game, and I hate that the decks are now workable and a bit more common. I often quit on sight, unless I'm on a streak. I wish they'd just abandoned the class to make way for Demon Hunter.

Once I've got 500 Hunter wins (about 20 to go), I'll likely move on to a budget version of Galakrond Rogue. I don't have Flik or Heistbaron Togwaggle or Hanar and I'm not crafting three class-specific legendaries. I reckon the deck will work okay without them. Especially at the gold/diamond bracket where I'm spending most of my time.

Not sure what to make of the new ranking system. The reason you get any given number of bonus stars is a mystery based on the opaque MMR and I don't know how to increase it. Still looks like there's no way into the higher ranks without grinding, which is all I'd really want to see. The extra rewards are nice, tho.
Last edit: 12 May 2020 05:22 by Matt Thrower.
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12 May 2020 14:30 - 12 May 2020 14:31 #310234 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
The bonus stars are a function of the previous season's performance. It's one star per extra "floor" achieved. The previous season I was unranked, so I was at 1 star "bonus" on streaks. Last season I finished at Plat 10, so that's (Bronze 5, Silver 10, Silver 5, Gold 10, Gold 5, Plat 10) 6 stars of bonus at Bronze 10, diminishing by 1 each time you hit one of those floors. So by the time I was Silver 3, I would only get 3 stars, &c. The top Legend folks come back with 11 stars, so on a streak in Bronze 10 (everyone reverts to Bronze 10), they get 22 stars to zoom back up the ladder.

Your matchmaking is MMR-based, without regard to ranking. So that's why you see Diamond 9 against 1200 Legend sometimes, it's because the Diamond is likely a Legend player climbing late in the month and the 1200 Legend lost a few games. So their MMRs align and they get paired.

Priest can play a decent Tempo deck. That's what I am running now. I am as likely to kill you with whatever Lazul stole as I am with Apotheosis on Kronx. It's a mix. I agree the Cartrina Muerte deck is a slog. The deck I have now doesn't play Convincing Infiltrator or Khartut Defender! Honestly, this deck got too slow in the age of Hunter, Demon Hunter, Warlock, Paladin, and Warrior (!) running Face Aggro decks.

Dragon Hunter looks a blast, I am jealous of that one. I ground up all my older junk to make Egg Warrior though, so it's out of range for me. I am playing a Highlander Hunter, but it would be better if I could focus on Dragons more, alas.

Not sure the Rogue deck will work without Togwaggle. You can make the Stealth Rogue deck pretty easily and avoid the need for Hanar, but Togwaggle is pretty huge in the longer games. Flik is really only needed against Druid to handle Wave 3 of whatever bullshit they get up to. Swap for a Sap and pray is the best course there.

Demon Hunter, though, Jesus. How did they SO bungle this thing? If I make to turn 7 or 8 (I often don't), why do I always see them with
  1. More creatures than me
  2. More cards in hand than me
  3. Nine cards further ahead in their deck than me
Let's take everything they ever got wrong about Warlock, Genn, Secret Paladin, and roll em all into one humongous mistake.
Last edit: 12 May 2020 14:31 by jeb. Reason: clarity
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13 May 2020 11:26 #310266 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
In update news , the animated Nemsy Necrofizzle gnome skin for Warlock is free in the store. She was available to Fireside Gathering participants only, prior to this, so that's nice. Let's hope they keep this up so we can get Medivh and/or Khadgar back in the mix. And I know a lot of folks would pay for Maiev.

They fixed some elements of Zephrys, to make him not screw up so much. You can hate the card, but it should work as written.

The other updates are in Battlegrounds. They rotated Dire Wolf Alpha away, who'd become a meme meaning "bad start." Replacing it is Rabid Saurolisk, a 3/1 Beast with "After you play a minion with Deathrattle, gain +1/+1." This can be a lump that gets you ties against 2/3 dudes or it can snowball into a Wrath Weaver-like monster that doesn't ping you. The novelty of it makes it a little tough to get golden at the moment, but that will settle and DR Mixed Minions might be a viable strategy.

New Heroes were added to the mix as well, but only for Perks ($2P) players until May 26. They all seem pretty solid from reading their powers, and I saw a Kael'Thas make at least top 2 yesterday for what that's worth (very little).
Lady Vashj
Evolving Electricity [Passive]: After you upgrade Bob’s Tavern, replace his minions with ones of a higher Tier.

Maiev Shadowsong
Imprison [Cost 1]: Make a minion in Bob’s Tavern Dormant. After 2 turns, get it with +1/+1.

Kael’thas Sunstrider
Verdant Spheres [Passive]: Every third minion you buy gains +2/+2.

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13 May 2020 15:13 #310276 by Brewmiester
Replied by Brewmiester on topic Hearthstone Players!
Yeah I've seen a lot of people have a Rabid Saurolisk even late game.

Be careful playing Lady Vashj. The first time I did there was a minion I wanted to buy but I leveled first and it got evolved :(
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15 May 2020 15:08 #310369 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
Incoming patch on Monday. Guess they finally decided the complete absence of Paladin and Shaman (except me, with my occasionally effective totem.dec, way down in the lower reaches) was something to be addressed. Could be it's because one class (DH) out of ten now represents 1/4 of all decks being played, too. They knew it was going to be popular. They just didn't know how popular...

Balance Updates
Aldor Attendant:
Old: [Cost 2] 2 Attack, 3 Health → New: [Cost 1] 1 Attack, 3 Health.


This is a start in the right direction, since it gives midrange Paladin decks, which all Libram decks aspire to be, something (anything!) to do on turn 1. But it's not addressing the root problem: Librams is a card combo deck; meaning you have to draw both cost-reducers and spells and play them in the right order to make them worthwhile. Without decent draw in the class except for Hand of Ad'al, this won't be enough to make the class competitive. It's a start, I guess.

Torrent:
Old: [Cost 5] → New: [Cost 4].


Meh. This spell is bad to begin with. Being dead weight in your hand until the late game when you can play it for 1 doesn't really make it any better than playing it for 2.

Shattered Rumbler:
Old: 4 Attack, 6 Health → New: 5 Attack, 6 Health.


Hm. Maybe? The problem I have with Rumbler isn't really its stats or even its condition. It's that it is, once again, a Shaman card that obviates the class' hero power.

The Lurker Below:
Old: 6 Attack, 3 Health → New: 6 Attack, 5 Health.


Better. Still not sure it's worth the dust, but better. Still probably not as good as Fire Elemental because you can't go face with the attack.

The 8 cards below will be eligible for a full dust refund until June 1.

Priestess of Fury:
Old: 6 Attack, 7 Health → New: 6 Attack, 5 Health.


This is a necessary change. The Priestess is simply too good and there are too few ways to deal 7 from hand to get rid of it (except Torrent! Woo!) It was basically mini-Ragnaros which was HoF'd for a reason.

Crimson Sigil Runner:
Old: 2 Attack, 1 Health → New: 1 Attack, 1 Health
.

This is just like the Novice Engineer nerf. They had a 1/2 card that became a prerequisite for every competitive deck. They took away 1 health and it became an option. Despite the conditional draw for Runner, it was too easy to get that draw in the early game, on top of being able to kill your opponent's 3/2.

Scavenger's Ingenuity:
Old: Draw a Beast. Give it +3/+3. → New: Draw a Beast. Give it +2/+2.


Also probably a necessary change. The ease of dropping a 5/6 on turn 4 and getting Secrets for free for the next three turns was a bit much. Now at least it's a 4/5 which, just like in the case of Priestess, is easier to remove.

Shadowjeweler Hanar:
Old: 1 Attack, 5 Health → New: 1 Attack, 4 Health.


Was cool for Rogues while it lasted. This is the second time in the last two years that they've had to nerf a powerful Rogue card from 1/5 to 1/4. Maybe they should take their own hint?

Blackjack Stunner:
Old: Battlecry: If you control a Secret, return a minion to its owner’s hand. It costs (2) more. → New: Battlecry: If you control a Secret, return a minion to its owner’s hand. It costs (1) more.


Yeah. 4 Saps in a game is a bit much.

Imprisoned Scrap Imp:
Old: Dormant for 2 turns. When this awakens, give all minions in your hand +2/+2. → New: Dormant for 2 turns. When this awakens, give all minions in your hand +2/+1.


When every Warlock deck in existence not only plays the card but also full mulligans for it, regardless of opponent, you know there's a problem.

Bloodboil Brute:
Old: 6 Attack, 8 Health → New: 5 Attack, 8 Health.


Kind of the converse of the Torrent change, this change won't be sufficient. Playing a 5/8 Rush minion for 3 mana or whatever is still insane.

Bloodsworn Mercenary:
Old: 3 Attack, 3 Health → New: 2 Attack, 2 Health.

And the Mercenary isn't the point. The point is the 24 damage combo that it can pull off because it's too cheap to play. But I suppose all of these changes have to be looked at in the context of each other.
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15 May 2020 17:30 #310371 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic Hearthstone Players!
1/4 of decks, dang! I have only been back for like three weeks, but I have never even heard of like half the cards impacted, haha.

Balance Updates
Aldor Attendant:
Old: [Cost 2] 2 Attack, 3 Health → New: [Cost 1] 1 Attack, 3 Health.


Who?

Torrent:
Old: [Cost 5] → New: [Cost 4].


What?

Shattered Rumbler:
Old: 4 Attack, 6 Health → New: 5 Attack, 6 Health.


Whazzit who?

The Lurker Below:
Old: 6 Attack, 3 Health → New: 6 Attack, 5 Health.


Huh wha?

Priestess of Fury:
Old: 6 Attack, 7 Health → New: 6 Attack, 5 Health.
This is a necessary change. The Priestess is simply too good and there are too few ways to deal 7 from hand to get rid of it (except Torrent! Woo!) It was basically mini-Ragnaros which was HoF'd for a reason.


Ok, this I can get behind. I hate this card. There are a lot of things I don't like about Demon Hunter, but this double-broken PoS is the biggest one. Mini-Ragnaros is not even doing it justice, because he had the decency to hit one target and not shread your hold board or attack. And there was only one of him in a deck. And you could have one. This card is a design and development failure.

Crimson Sigil Runner:
Old: 2 Attack, 1 Health → New: 1 Attack, 1 Health.
This is just like the Novice Engineer nerf. They had a 1/2 card that became a prerequisite for every competitive deck. They took away 1 health and it became an option. Despite the conditional draw for Runner, it was too easy to get that draw in the early game, on top of being able to kill your opponent's 3/2.


Agree, this card was nuts. Compare to Abusive Sergeant or Leper Gnome, which also used to 2/1s and murdering everything. This one gets you more murder, probably the worst of the lot.

Scavenger's Ingenuity:
Old: Draw a Beast. Give it +3/+3. → New: Draw a Beast. Give it +2/+2.
Also probably a necessary change. The ease of dropping a 5/6 on turn 4 and getting Secrets for free for the next three turns was a bit much. Now at least it's a 4/5 which, just like in the case of Priestess, is easier to remove.


Aw dang. I really like this card. I was utterly flogging people with big Stonetusk Boars, but I realize the issue was probably that Porcupine and the Secrets Lizard. Oh well. Ooh, and their Prime guy. Isn't that a Beast? That guy just RUINS you when buffed.

Shadowjeweler Hanar:
Old: 1 Attack, 5 Health → New: 1 Attack, 4 Health.
Was cool for Rogues while it lasted. This is the second time in the last two years that they've had to nerf a powerful Rogue card from 1/5 to 1/4. Maybe they should take their own hint?


This is not a fix--this guy works as a 0/1. This card might get legit moved along.

Blackjack Stunner:
Old: Battlecry: If you control a Secret, return a minion to its owner’s hand. It costs (2) more. → New: Battlecry: If you control a Secret, return a minion to its owner’s hand. It costs (1) more.
Yeah. 4 Saps in a game is a bit much.


Interesting. Obviously dampens the "Alex-costs-11-now" gameplan, but opens up the "crappy Shadowstep" avenue I have had to use before. I will keep an eye on this one.

Imprisoned Scrap Imp:
Old: Dormant for 2 turns. When this awakens, give all minions in your hand +2/+2. → New: Dormant for 2 turns. When this awakens, give all minions in your hand +2/+1.
When every Warlock deck in existence not only plays the card but also full mulligans for it, regardless of opponent, you know there's a problem.


This card seems crazy on face, and yes, turns out it's crazy. Not sure that this will move the needle though, the attack buff is still so sexy.

Bloodboil Brute:
Old: 6 Attack, 8 Health → New: 5 Attack, 8 Health.
Kind of the converse of the Torrent change, this change won't be sufficient. Playing a 5/8 Rush minion for 3 mana or whatever is still insane.


Another interesting one. I am glad they lowered Princess of Fury, because there was a play to ping her and then lay this guy to clear her at 6. If they took that away I would full dust all my Warrior cards.

Bloodsworn Mercenary:
Old: 3 Attack, 3 Health → New: 2 Attack, 2 Health.
And the Mercenary isn't the point. The point is the 24 damage combo that it can pull off because it's too cheap to play. But I suppose all of these changes have to be looked at in the context of each other.

Totally honest here, I have played about 50 games as Egg Warrior and I think I have attacked with this card maybe three times total. This doesn't change a thing.
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15 May 2020 18:07 #310373 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Hearthstone Players!
No surprise you're not familiar with all the Shaman and Paladin cards, considering that no one plays those classes (except me. Was trying to finish a quest today playing Murloc Paladin. Ugh... my desire to play this game is diminishing by the day.) Vicious Syndicate has been combining Druid, Paladin, and Shaman into one category: Druamadin because they have so little to say about any of them.

I do think one of the main culprits behind the Scavenger's nerf was Zixor. 4 (mana) 7/7s was a bit much, especially if you were certain he was the only beast left in your deck.

I'm not confident of the Hanar fix, either. He has those blowout turns that make him crazy, but the key there is that they have to happen later in the game for mana access. There are a lot of situations where he stays on the board because people can't kill him the turn he comes down and then the ugliness begins. 4 health at least gives the possibility that he can be taken out, just like with EVIL Miscreant.

I really can't believe they missed the target on the Mercenary. Like you say, no one plays it because it's a 3/3. They play it because it's a combo card and you're planning to either clear the board or win the game when the combo happens. She could be an 0/1 and it generally wouldn't change how she's used.
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