New top list of SuperHero movies?

I was going to drop this in the Avengers movie thread, but I'll leave that to talk specifically Avengers.

So, yeah, with the Avengers out there, many individual Avenger films, DC making a little push, what's the landscape looking like for you now?

I still feel like Spider-man 2 is the best film as far as capturing the essence of the source characters.

The batman movies are great. _Really_ good. Perhaps better than some of the other superhero films. But my problem is that they don't _feel_ like superhero films. That may be the point, but I don't get a sense of four-color wonder when watching the Nolan movies, and truthfully, I'm not that excited about the new one.

Avengers for my money is the best live action comic put to film. Several times watching this thing I was thinking, "Really? I'm actually watching a mainstream superhero movie with all of the avengers in their full, rightful wardobe and a norse god of mischief running around causing trouble?" No dark matrix suits for everyone a la x-men, no angst filled, gravel mouthed delivery a la batman, just straight up funny book nerdity. My only problems with it are I felt some of the delivery a bit wooden in the early half, and the guy playing Captain America doesn't have the gravitas that comic Cap has. I felt like they'd just zoom in on his face to give his words weight.

So, ranking the superhero films as it stands now, my book lists:

1) Spider-man 2
2) Avengers
3) Spider-man
4) X-Men
5) Blade

I've said most of this here before but I'll re-phrase some and add a bit of new to it before I go watch the Avengers. I got a buddy who want's me to wait so I'm not going to see it for a couple of weeks. But I am pumped to see it and generally like Whedon's scripts.

As it stands now though.

1/ The Incredibles is clearly the best Superhero film. It has by far the best script and pretty much does for Super Hero movies what the Watchmen did for comics. In fact everything the Watchmen movie couldn't be The Incredibles is. Plus it's funny as hell. The fact that it's an original IP is huge to me. I like the characters and they're abilities being tied to their family roles is a bit of ingeniousness. Those powers aren't just chosen at random... even the baby in the end with his ever changing powers represents potential.. it's just brilliant and then on top of it all they send out the message that we're not all equal and some people are just plain old better then others. Not since Old Yeller has Disney shown balls like that. Thank Brad Bird for that one.

2/ X2 has the best characters and acting you could hope for in a superhero film. From the opening sequence where we see Nightcrawler kicking ass over top Mozart's death requiem you can tell this movie is going to be kick ass. Then Magneto shows up and Ian Mckellen just knocks it out of the park. His escape from the plastic prison is still my favorite scene in any super hero movie. I almost cried it was so good. This was the end of comic movies being able to be "kick ass" and not look stupid. Even Storm can't totally fuck it up.

3/ At this point it doesn't even matter since those two are so far ahead of anything else. The Nolan films would be good if they didn't fuck up Batman so badly. There's one scene where theres a group of bad dudes down on the dock that just start disappearing into the darkness as Batman takes them out one at a time. That scene is perfection and it's in the first film. It's as good as Batman has ever been done. So as much as I enjoy those two films they also piss me off. They don't feel like Super Hero films as Jeff rightly points out. They film like 70's cop films or gangster films or something along those lines.

4/ The Spiderman films, 1&2 anyway, perfectly capture what Spiderman is in the comic but I don't like them and I don't think Spiderman works as a film star. I like his nerdy loserdom in a comic well enough but I never understood how he makes for compelling cinema and I really don't like the relationship stuff in those films. It's done really poorly and the guy who plays Harry sucks which is too bad cause he's in them quite a bit.

5/ Captain America because as bad as it is I loved the 40's sci-fi feel, I loved the girl, I loved the really shitty action montage post rescue and I loved Hugo Weaving. The sets were beautiful.

I should mention the original Superman film, but I prefer the old cartoons and Batman the animated series. There is a three part Clayface story that would be on this list if it was a movie and not a three part cartoon. That cartoon still represents the best Batman we've ever seen on screen. In fact the two video games are awesome too. Scott Pilgrim was cool but it didn't do anything that Speed Racer hadn't already done so the novelty was short lived and really, every cool cross medium thing it did it's source material did better. Ang Lee's Hulk remains fascinating as well.

Great points, JJ, and looking forward to your thoughts on Avengers.
(speaking of movie thoughts, where'd black barney go?)

I do want to expand on the spider-man movies a bit though. I felt like the cast was pretty good. Certainly the villains were played well (omitting the venom that was forced in by the studio), but even the supporting cast was well done. The guy playing JJ, aunt may, his uncle's killer, bonesaw, etc all great.

It's with such high regard to the Raimi films that when I saw the trailer to the new spider-man reboot I was a bit put-off.

First, it felt like the trailer zoomed in on his home-made mechanic web-shooters a bit as if to say "hey, look fans we fixed what Raimi screwed up". Except I didn't think they were such a big deal or a screw up in the earlier films. Second, I don't know who the guy playing the Lizard is, but the Lizard doesn't have the weight of Green Goblin or Dr. Octopus. Plus, it looks to be a cgi fest fighting a big green cartoon instead of the grounded feel flesh and blood actors brought to the earlier movies.

Finally, we have some 'wise-cracking' spider-man scenes....and honestly, to me they didn't work. He came off like an asshole. It's kinda like the cop situation. You know, the cop can be a dick and let you go, or play it straight and give you a ticket, but for the cop to be dick and give you a ticket is just being an asshole.

So, while the Raimi films had plenty of humor I felt the humor provided helped support the fact that he's just a regular dude, but by 'sticking to the comic' the character wasn't funny, but a prick.

Of course, this is just all gut reaction to only a trailer.

To me, the Raimi films are always more about a silver-age kind of Spider-Man. It has some silly stuff in all three movies, goofy jokes and all. That's one of the problems with the third movie, that Venom just does not feel like he belongs in Raimi's movies at all.

I originally wasn't excited about the new movie, but the trailers have gotten me excited. Tobey Maguire was always such a sad-sack. He spends most of the movies moping around and generally acting like a weiner. I'm overstating a bit, but by the time the third movie comes around he's basically gone over the edge. Andrew Garfield looks like he will make Spidey actually funny. That's a good thing.

My favorites:

1: The Dark Knight - It's more of a crime movie but I think it captures the themes of Batman with alarming truth. And it's definitely the boldest vision we've seen from an established property. Nolan does some really amazing stuff, and the movie makes me think while it thrills. That's a great accomplishment.

2: Superman - I love this movie. It just gets everything right, from the look down to the actors to the score. It never missteps, and it's actually aged really well. The special effects have that hand-crafted feel that modern movies often lack. I really look forward to watching this movie with my son. If he's anything like me, he'll love it.

3: The Avengers - My fears that it would be an over-marketed bloated mess were unfounded. It is over-marketed, and it's pretty long. But it never feels like wasted time. The characters are all given their due, and Whedon understands that they are broken people. They are compelled to serve the public, either through guilt or to make themselves feel better, or just circumstance. Such brokenness can only be overcome through unity, and the movie makes that clear. And it's just so much fun.

4: Spider-Man 2 - This is the movie where it all came together for Raimi. Superhero movies are only as good as their villain, and Alfred Molina is inspired casting as Doc Ock. It also knows that the person behind the mask is usually more interesting than the hero himself, but it never oversells it. The other two movies have their strengths and weaknesses, but this one is head and shoulders above them.

5: Iron Man - I knew nothing about Iron Man before seeing this movie, and it made me regret that fact. Again, inspired casting for Robert Downey Jr. He sells every scene he's in, and the dialog is just as fun to listen to as the action scenes are to watch. The sequel suffers in comparison, but it's good too.

JonJacob wrote: I've said most of this here before but I'll re-phrase some and add a bit of new to it before I go watch the Avengers. I got a buddy who want's me to wait so I'm not going to see it for a couple of weeks. But I am pumped to see it and generally like Whedon's scripts.

Wow, I can't believe how closely I agree with your list JJ. That's creepy.

Nice list and I agree with you wholeheartedly. After seeing The Avengers I would copy your list and put it at the very top. I hope you enjoy it when you see it!

Jeff White wrote: The batman movies are great. _Really_ good. Perhaps better than some of the other superhero films. But my problem is that they don't _feel_ like superhero films. That may be the point, but I don't get a sense of four-color wonder when watching the Nolan movies, and truthfully, I'm not that excited about the new one.

Amen, Jeff. I enjoy Nolan's take on Batman in general but I missed the train on TDK. Don't get me wrong, Ledger's Joker was complete awesome, but other than that I did not understand all the hype. Perhaps I don't get Nolan's genius or something because I felt the same about Inception.

Some random thoughts.

I'm really intrigued by the way Marvel studios is putting their movies in the same universe. I could be wrong, but weren't the Marvel comics the first to do that as well? You know, have Spidey show up in an issue of the FF?

But how long can it last? I guess the plan is another round of avengers solo films followed by Avengers 2. Could they run that game for a third time though? Will fans be on-board for all of this? Will actors get too old/want to move on? I guess they could always do the inevitable re-boot and do it again.

What's DC's answer? They used to be king of the superhero films, but outside of Nolan's batman movies...what's going on? Think they'll ape the success of the Avengers and do a JLA film that's proceeded by batman, superman, wonder woman, and green lantern movies?

DC has a new Superman movie coming out next year I believe.

Jeff White wrote: I'm really intrigued by the way Marvel studios is putting their movies in the same universe. I could be wrong, but weren't the Marvel comics the first to do that as well? You know, have Spidey show up in an issue of the FF?

But how long can it last? I guess the plan is another round of avengers solo films followed by Avengers 2. Could they run that game for a third time though? Will fans be on-board for all of this? Will actors get too old/want to move on? I guess they could always do the inevitable re-boot and do it again.

I think you're right about Marvel comics. I remember reading in Kurt Busiek's Marvels, in the Stan Lee intro to one of the chapters discusses this specifically. Although the Justice League has been around awhile as well. But what Marvel has done with this build up to Avengers is incredible and definitely brand new. I'm quite impressed that comic culture has made it this far and I don't feel super hero saturations at all.

But I am sick of journalists complaining about super hero saturation. I must have seen 5 different articles bemoaning the rise of comic inspired movies or super hero movies this year already. "It's too much, three more super hero movies this year alone!! Do we have no imagination?"

Yeah, a whole three.. big deal. How many Romantic Comedies does Hollywood put out each year? Horror films, chick flicks, etc... three whole super hero films a year is completely tolerable in my mind and if Marvel can keep it up I'll try to watch them. But they'll have to do better then Iron Man 2 to keep me interested.

I remember saying to my wife during Iron Man 2; "Why do they have to shoehorn in this stupid love story? He's Iron Man, he doesn't fall in love, he womanizes.... you know what I want to see honey? I want to see them shoehorn stuff for guys into chick movies. So the next Sex in the City movie I see there better be a Ninja fight break out half way through or I am so out of there!" There wasn't. But I stayed for the whole film to be sure. They never shoehorn crap in for the guys.

... and I'm on board for the new Spidey too. In fact I'd love to see him make an appearance in the next Avengers film, he is so good at taking the piss out of overly dramatic moments in the comic I think he'd be great at it in a film too. Andrew Garfield was great in The Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus and I trust he can do this... if the script is good.

DC has a new Superman movie coming out next year I believe.

I'm nervous about this one. Zack Snyder is signed up to do it I believe and he's got a lot of explaining to do already. I'd love to see another good Superman flick but I'm unsure if he's the right guy for the job.

I don't think Marvel Studios has the rights to do the Spider-man or X-men films. A shame though, ain't it?

How about the FF though? I understand that franchise is getting re-booted. Are they owned by Marvel Studios? Would be awesome if they made an appearance in Avengers 2, or more likely 3. Or if Thor or Iron Man had a cameo in their film. But perhaps now I'm just thinking like a spoiled kid.

1. The Dark Knight - This is pretty much not arguable.

2. Hulk (Ang Lee) - It is a fantastic picture; totally captures the fun spirit of the original comics without getting all cloying and maudlin with the "serious" stuff, like the turgid, nauseating Spider-Man 2. Get over the fucking mutant poodles, people.

3. Superman 1 & 2 - As far as I'm concerned, they're two halves of the same movie. Gene Hackman is a riot, Christopher Reeve's Kent is a joy to watch, the special effects are still pretty decent today, and the score is awesome.

4. Batman (1966) - I love the 60s Batman stuff. That show was way more violent than most of what was out there for kids programming when I was little, so I never got the joke. To me, it was just a badass Batman show with all kinds of fisticuffs that looked just like the comics and toys I had. The casting was just so perfect, it was like I was literally watching the comics on screen. Of course, now it's just hilarious. I love how Batman & Robin realize they totally fucked up at the end, and just decide to take off.

5. The Rocketeer - Rocket packs? Awesome. Nazis, gangsters, zeppelins, and a big huge bad guy that kills people by literally folding them in half? That sounds good too. Jennifer Connelly as a 40s pinup girl? SOLD. Seriously, this is probably still my favorite straightforward, nothin' fancy, fun superhero action picture. Everything about it hits the exact notes I want from this kind of film.

Honorable Mention: Roger Corman's Fantastic Four. What it lacks in high budget special effects, decent writing, and competent acting, it makes up for with being hilariously awful. It's a hell of a lot more entertaining a lot of the more recent superhero flicks.

Let's not forget the worst superhero movie of all, which are two, tied for last:

The Phantom (Alec Baldwin) and The Phantom (Billy Zane)

And JJ nailed it. Xmen 2 and The Incredibles for the win. I'd add XMen First Class, which was really great but I'm a sucker for alt-history...so I'm biased.

I liked both The Shadow and The Phantom. Neither were great shakes, but both were nice n' pretty to look at, but not in the totally phony I-might-as-well-be-playing-video-games way the newer movies are.

X-Men First Class and The Incredibles: Also awesome stuff.

I have a soft spot for The Rocketeer too, mjl. I love old time radio dramas and this feels just like one of those. And Jennifer Connelly--holy mackeral.

Ang Lee's The Hulk is a funny story for me--I remember thinking, right as he was captured towards the end, "This was a freakin' good movie, I enjoyed this." And then...Nick Nolte and the 15 minutes of...whatever that followed. It wasn't the mutant poodles, it was the over-the-top Nolte-ism and the VERY poorly shot final battle that killed it for me.

I'll still watch and enjoy it for what it is, but if they'd cut to credits not long after "You weren't hard to find," it would have been a much, much better movie. "BUT WHAT ABOUT HIS DAD?!?" Save that shit for the sequel. Or at least, find a coherent end battle that doesn't involve Nolte hamming it up beyond belief beforehand.

"No Heroics" is my favourite, though it's a comedy series rather than a movie. I really like the chunky strong chick.