We absolutedly need an animation thread

jeb wrote: I also want to note that these are scripted TO DEATH. Just because there's no words doesn't mean it's not scripted within an inch of its life.

Storyboarded to death, not scripted. There is a difference, especially in the end product. They were very particular about what happened when, especially Chuck Jones who was very formulaic... I don't mean that negatively because he did do some one offs that were brilliant and never repeated like What's Opera Doc and the Michegan J Frog episode but his Roadrunners, for example, are really hard to watch all in a row because they follow a very exact formula.. but still have great moments.

There are a few things here and there that use a similar approach like the Triplets of Bellville which is a great animated film and feels like a bunch of shorts stuck together that happen to tell a story.

I also love the NFB shorts. The Cat Came Back and The Logdrivers Waltz being personal favorites.

I'm a huge fan of Ren and Stimpy. To this day there hasn't been a cartoon that has come close to matching its greatness. The drawing/animation itself was funny and that is something that is missing from most modern cartoons. Just the way they would draw Ren getting pissed or an extreme closeup of Stimpy's ear was spectacular. I really wish John K would create something new.

Some other favorites - I've always loved Looney Toons. It's a shame that these don't play every single day anymore. I fondly remember coming home from school and watching a couple of hours of Looney Toons.

Does anyone else remember Duckman? It was on the USA network and starred Jason Alexander. It was a dark and twisted cartoon that was crudely drawn...but I really liked it.

I watched a lot of Duckman. I thought it was really funny but I really did not like the way it looked. Not that it was bad just not to my taste.

The Critic was also pretty funny but I tried watching them some years ago and they felt very dated.

Egg Shen wrote: Does anyone else remember Duckman? It was on the USA network and starred Jason Alexander. It was a dark and twisted cartoon that was crudely drawn...but I really liked it.

I certainly do. Was a big fan. The animation will always suffer in comparison to the old days, but it wasn't the worst by any means.


Speaking of animation elitism, I are that. So, with that out of the way, let me recommend Oskar Fischinger's shorts if you can find them anywhere. For an easy to find example, he did the great abstract opening sequence in Fantasia, which is one of my favorites of all time. The Fischinger estate finally put out a DVD collection a few years ago that is great, but it seems to have gone OOP and is now fetching insane prices. I may have to send mine off to be "slabbed" by one of those Comics/Sports Cards grading houses.

Here's some very early examples from Walter Ruttman. Same vein as Fischinger, but these are from the very early days. All the abstract animators got a lot more sophisticated heading into the war years.

repoman wrote: Oh, and my name is Repo and I love roto-scoping. Yes I have a problem but I love the way it looks. The original Lord of the Rings movie is a prime example.

Have you watched Fire and Ice, Repo? Roto is used extensively, and it's a good fantasy story to boot.

Oh yes I've seen Fire and Ice. Didn't care for the story though.

I can't believe, in my tiny defense of Disney cartoons, that I forgot the flat-out funniest, favorite Disney cartoon of all time, easy: DER FUEHRER'S FACE. Everyone go watch it right now. Donald Duck is SO fucking cranky about being a Nazi! Seriously, the cartoon is great far beyond the initial "Donald Duck as a Nazi" premise.

And what does Clampett have over Chuck Jones? Wildness/craziness/surreality. Chuck Jones was great and all, but Clampett beats him for sheer weirdness. He even beats Tex Avery for that. Out of the three, the clearest predecessor for Jon Kricfalusi is Clampett, I think.

Plus, Clampett did this awesome martian cartoon that if I weren't at work I'd fine a youtube link for.

Just talking about the Golden Age because it's fun to talk about, and small and manageable. We start talking about modern stuff, and my head starts asplodin'.

While we're going on about this what do people think of Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarves?

Personally I like it and see it as a tribute to a culture that Clampett loved that if made today would be racist but for the time is actually a tribute to something no other animators were even recognizing (the existence of black culture in America). I find the lack of any black characters in Disney more offensive than Clampett's attempt to be inclusive.

Anyone find it offensive? What about the other banned cartoons from WB?

for reference:



Like dragstout I mostly love the Disney shorts. I just can't stand their feature films is all.

I have sort of a difficult relationship with stuff like it. On one hand, I think this stuff should be available so that we don't forget just how recent the civil rights movement was, how fucked up this country is and has been with respect to race, and just a general dislike of anything disappearing forever because of content.

On the other hand, I don't think it should be shown to children anymore. Children don't understand the context or meaning of the material. I wouldn't want to continue stereotypes with people who can't understand what they mean, why they were wrong, etc. I guess the opposite argument is that children need to be exposed to this and it can start a conversation about race, and civil rights. But I don't think that is how it would be viewed and understood in the real world.

This is like watching the cartoon version of the Cold War. Everyone slowly approaches the topic, not wanting to drop too many names and then JonJacob breaks in with Coal Black.


Before I go on, I typed "script" instead of "plot". So yeah, I didn't mean that. JonJacob is right when he mentions that classic animators used storyboards and not scripts, though. (Or not, because if you compare Clampett's or Tashlin's storyboards to the actual short they look nothing alike!).

What we can all agree on is that they are deliberate to the milimeter and frame, which is what Jeb wanted to say, if I'm not mistaken.


What bothers me is this certain obsession that pops up in all mediums but which is specially pointy in animation and videogames where it is assumed that a work is worthless if it doesn't have an epic plot and half a dozen named characters and conspirations.

Things are pretty bad when animators are told to draw The Simpsons poorly because "nobody would watch it if it were well drawn". (This is an actual quote, if paraphrased)


Really, all I'm saying is that if you want to make an animated movie, good animation should be a priority. It's a given, like asking good gameplay out of a game. Otherwise there's no reason to use the medium, stick to another more fitting medium instead.

Dogmatix wrote: Erik, I'm not sure why you think this cartoon doesn't make sense if you write it down.

Oh no, what I mean is that it isn't propelled foward by rational thought, but by emotions. The entire short is increasingly absurdist and, while accurate, saying it's a short where Daffy sings with a group of movie caricatures isn't telling the whole story.

BTW, I thought Daffy was imitating Danny Kaye, given the book title and all. Wikipedia says so too, but it's Wikipedia so who knows.

dragonstout wrote: For Disney...you really think they're wasted on the content?

Well, to be frank that was a very broad comment. The stuff you mention is great and I like the everyman Goofys and some Donald Ducks. But you also have the unispired Plutos and the happy generic shorts which are very well made but which aren't really funny, they are just cute.



Coal Black is really difficult to understand, if you ask me. At first sight, it's horrible racist, but there's truth beyond that. Real life is complicated and as silly as it may seem, it's actually a tribute to black culture and Clampett was friends with many black musicians that were both his inspiration and voiced the cartoon, which wasn't exactly easy during such a racist era.

And they were credited.

And they showed the blacks as being in the army.

It's a very complicated issue because stereotypes and facts are so closely interwined that they are difficult to put apart. Eating chicken-shaped chocolate can easily be seen as stereotypical but apparently decorating your teeth was common in the community of the time and I have seen pictures of a famous boxer of the 60s that had a similar pattern, making things very complicated. So we reach this unconfortable point where it is and isn't racist at the same time because someone who goes all the way to reference Murder Incorporated and another dozen black bands obviously doesn't hate them but the iconography has a higher resonance that is very dangerous too.

It's a shame because the racism and things that look racist but aren't or may be ruin the cartoon for me. Sigh. Racism isn't fun to watch