F:AT Super Smash Bros. Discussion and Online Thread

Just starting a thread so we aren't derailing the video game thread with constant Smash Bros. chitchat, and so we can organize some online play.

My username is sanildefanso. Add me, yo.

I have a paper I'm working on this week. That means I'll be spending most of my evenings reading and writing, until next Monday. I'm doing a good job at pacing myself, so I'll probably be on in the evenings around 10:30 or 11 Eastern most nights. After the paper is due I can set up some more established meetup times.

From the other thread:

jeb wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: Villager RULES. So satisfying to chop that tree down on somebody.

The tree is nice, but want to pause the game and run around the fucking room when I drop a bowling ball on someone trying to get back up on the ledge. Holy SHIT that is satisfying. It's like crouch-to-rest with Jigglypuff. I love it.

I got that rest move to work like once with Jigglypuff, and I literally pumped my fist.

Hi I have a Xbox One, what's going on in here?


..oh... um.... is Diddy Kong in this game? If he is, that's who I'd use. I like him and used to kick butt in Mario Tennis 64 using that chimp

If anyone who's into Smash or played Melee in the past hasn't seen it yet, The Smash Brothers documentary is a great look into how a simple party game was transformed into a world-class fighting experience. After watching I was inspired to find my Gamecube and learn how to wavedash and DI. Just watch out, the narrator's voice is very strange and I found the use of anime scenes in the second episode silly. However it's a great way to get up to speed on the scene if you want to watch current Melee tournaments like Apex, which I highly recommend!

great vid, Scrump. My buddy Dom plays in those tournaments. I was just playing 4 way FFA on Gamecube at my buddy's parents' place but he was playing in tournaments, it was nuts.

Loved seeing Azan kick his friends' butts in Mario Party. That page flipping mini game was so much fun.

Can you spoil the next vid for me? Who wins between Ken and Azan? I'm guessing Ken is the better player. If it's Azan, that's wicked impressive considering he has like zero competitive experience outside of living rooms (which obviously counts for a great deal).

The narrator's voice is hilarious. He sounds like the understudy for the Resident Evil guy.

And man, I've been calling bullshit for years on the developers of Super Smash that say they never intended for it to be anything other than a party game. There is incredible depth to that game for those that wish to dig. People play that game for some serious money now and you can't compete for serious money in low-skill video games.

Black Barney wrote: Hi I have a Xbox One, what's going on in here?


..oh... um.... is Diddy Kong in this game? If he is, that's who I'd use. I like him and used to kick butt in Mario Tennis 64 using that chimp

Not only is Diddy Kong there, he's one of the early front-runners for top characters in the competitive scene, along with Shiek. He's fast, has great recovery, and is pretty intuitive to use.

I actually think that Luigi might qualify as one of my "mains" if I were really into that sort of thing. At least I like him enough to maybe dedicate myself to getting good with him.

Black Barney wrote: Can you spoil the next vid for me? Who wins between Ken and Azan? I'm guessing Ken is the better player. If it's Azan, that's wicked impressive considering he has like zero competitive experience outside of living rooms (which obviously counts for a great deal).

I haven't seen the series in a while but I believe it was Ken. He became such a skilled player in the Melee scene that no one could bring him down for 3 years. His nickname is still the King of Smash because of how dominant he was during that time period.

You're completely correct about the developers of Smash being hypocritical about the purpose of the game. While advanced moves like the wavedash are an exploit and were not intended, other equally important moves like L-cancelling and DI are coded into the game. The whole topic of Nintendo's antagonism against competitive Melee comes up a lot in the series. Happily, things have improved recently as Nintendo partnered with Apex, the biggest Smash-only tournament, which blew everyone away. That grand finals of Apex this year had over 100,000 live viewers, which shows that Melee still has quite a bit of life left in it. The game has such a high skill ceiling that people are still discovering new combos and strategies.

I'm a little unclear as to how much Melee was intended to be super competitive, just because a lot of the most advanced techniques are exploits. (I didn't know L-cancelling was coded in there, however.) Smash 4 does a really good job of letting you pick which way you want to play though. It feels like something that is big enough to accommodate anyone, rather than something that is torn between two ends of the spectrum. That's an impressive balancing act.

I spent an hour last night playing as Luigi, whom I really like. The only issue is that his jump is high and floaty, which I suspect makes him easy to juggle if he gets caught in hits.

No doubt there is a VERY complicated, complex design underneath it all. Fighting games in general have a lot going on mechanically- frame counts, hit boxes, spacing, recoveries, cancels, counters, etc. etc. etc. and then on top of that are the exploits that only come out in the wild when the game is stress-tested a billion times. And that's before figuring in items.

Think about it, every one of the characters has to be tested and balanced against every other character on every stage with every item and variable to ensure balance. That results in a game that has an almost infinite level of depth to discover and learn about.

When you have that level of technical design going into a game that absolutely rewards SKILLFUL and EXPERIENCED play, you're going to get something that can work competitively whether you intend it or not.

I played for about an hour last night online...I am just NO GOOD at the game against real people. You can definitely tell when you are playing against someone that has a full command of their character's movesets and the underpinning mechanics of the game.

San Il Defanso wrote: I'm a little unclear as to how much Melee was intended to be super competitive, just because a lot of the most advanced techniques are exploits. (I didn't know L-cancelling was coded in there, however.) Smash 4 does a really good job of letting you pick which way you want to play though. It feels like something that is big enough to accommodate anyone, rather than something that is torn between two ends of the spectrum. That's an impressive balancing act.

Yes from what I've read I don't think Nintendo ever intended the game to be super competitive, but it seems from their inclusion of advanced techniques that it was never just a party game to some of the programmers either. If you ever want to take a deep dive into Melee mechanics this link contains data recorded by Mew2King, one of the best players, on each character and their attack priorities, frames, wave-dash potential, etc. Certain characters are objectively much worse than the top tier names, such as Fox/Falco, Marth and Sheik, but what's fascinating is that characters that people once considered weak or ineffective, such as Jigglypuff and Peach, were revealed to be top tier when the right players figured out how to play them best. I highly recommend watching some of the final matches from this year's Apex as the speed, strategy and mind games on display are fascinating to watch.

Yeah, the coolest thing about the Smash Bros. series is how each game has had such a rich metagame, especially considering that the first three games were never patched, and the new one looks like it won't really have many balance tweaks to speak of. It just takes one player to figure out how to use one character properly, and then the whole community has to reassess the qualities of different characters. People are STILL discovering new stuff about Melee.

Even if Sakurai never intended the game to be competitive, it seems like the Nintendo-ness of the design actually created such a deep setting. That attention to detail and polish made a game that you could dig into forever, and the accessibility of the inputs meant that people were basically able to riff and create their own style. When the moves are all so simple they can be combined endlessly.

I love playing the game in either setting, but I don't think I have enough local friends (or time) to really get anywhere competitively. The game is still at its best with local multiplayer, which as has been stated before, is a lost art in video games.

I'm generally a pro-items type of person, so I'm a little disappointed that the competitive scene eschews them entirely. I know this was not always the case, and it makes sense that items would create a really strange tournament situation. But it strikes me that it adds a completely new layer to a competitive setting, so it might be neat if there was a with-items bracket. Does something like that exist at APEX?

i'm also pro-item! My buddy Dom HATES it when I have them on. But I think they make the game way more chaotic and fun. I understand it makes it less skill-based but I loved throwing pokemon eggs all over the place.

Yeah I've always been a fan of items too. We always just house-ruled out the ones that bugged us, like massive health-recovery items such as the tomato. As far as I can tell I don't think there's an items bracket at Apex, but I would love to see how all the top players would fare using them. The documentary talks about how some of the early tournaments included items in the game but this came to an end after some top players were knocked out by awful turns of fate, such as an angry Scizor bouncing around the screen.

My son and I set up a game with all of the explosive items at a high rate, a Smash Rate of 2.0, and light gravity. It was so stupid and so fun.

Two players, no items. Three to eight players, as many items as possible.

I like the two player game without to get to the deeper elements of the gameplay or to really dig into a character's move set. But with three or more, it really is best IMO as an all-in madhouse that should be as crazy as possible.

I haven't even shown the kids the custom modes yet...I think River would flip out if we cranked up the smash ball frequency. He gets SO stressed out when they show up.

"Pokémon eggs"...ha ha! I love it when my chickens lay Chickeballs, so six of one, half dozen of the other.