Batman Kickstarter (w/discussion of FOMO sales method)

MattDP wrote: Am I the only person who finds it alarming this is a "Kickstarter exclusive"? That a game based on Conan, which got a very mediocre reception, is pushing consumers toward a blind purchase on the basis of a great licence and nice figures?

What worries me is not so much the quality of the game or that it's being bought blind, but that what is being sold here is not the game. The product in sale is the purcharsing experience itself, the idea of buying a Batman game with sculpts. The game is not being sold. How could it? It doesn't exist and nobody has actually played it. Most of the people buying this don't seem to have a need for a game and it will end up in the shelf after just one or two plays.

I mean, it's what has happened with the vast majority of Kickstarter games. People who want games to play don't buy a game they know nothing about and that they won't even see in a year. I truly think that the game itself is a secondary concern compared to the pleasure of purcharse or ownership.

And I don't mean to wag my finger or complain or anything, it's just that whenever I think of this topic, I'm reminded of my marketing classes. The stuff I learned about the buying experience, the fear of missing out, the artificial smells shops in the mall have or how one more click can be the difference between the consumer losing interest and a sale. I'm seeing people who are making choices they probably don't want to make.

I mean, if you think it's cool and you are ok with the patronage involved, I think that's great. I hope the game is good and it's fun and so on. But I don't think most people buying into this or other "big kickstarters" are really doing things in their interest. It's cult of the new point two, in a sense.

I don't normally go for Kickstarters, though I am very happy with the one Kickstarter that I did back, and several others that I purchased retail after the Kickstarter. I also backed one that failed to reach the minimum goal and got canceled. Normally, I find it easy to pass on a Kickstarter, because they are often a combination of great minis and mediocre rules, when I would much rather get a great game with cardboard standees and a more reasonable price. I don't enjoy painting minis, and yet it bothers me when I am playing a game with unpainted minis.

Thanks to this thread, I am now struggling to decide on a Kickstarter for the second time ever. The previous time was the original Cthulhu Wars kickstarter. In the end, I decided to not kickstart Cthulhu Wars because I was on the verge of losing my job. I did lose that job, and I struggled to survive during a 9-month job search. And the job that I settled for did not pay well, so I made the right call on Cthulhu Wars, even though it is apparently a great game. I have since moved on to a better job and recovered financially, so the price tag is not a dealbreaker for this Batman kickstarter.

My current analysis of this Batman kickstarter:

Pros:
+ great minis
+ nice map tiles
+++ Batman, one of the best fictional characters ever
++ all the major Batman villains that I care about, possibly one of the most entertaining set of fictional villains ever
+ seems to be based on the same system as the Conan game from two years ago, which generally got good reviews aside from the problematic rulebook
+ nifty dice
+ an overlord style game that appears to be balanced enough that the overlord player can go for the win without ruining the game for the other players
+ expansions separated out nicely from the kickstarting levels, so that some are obvious buys and some are clearly for people with more money than common sense
+ Charlest liked the Conan game by this same team
+ I like the utility belt cards, which are made to resemble items on a utility belt when laid out side-by-side.
++ lots of replay value

Cons:
--- lots of minis that I would need to paint
- cubes that are not dice
- complex iconography all over the cards
--- expensive
- Penguin is a stretch goal instead of in the base game
- Won't receive game until April 2019, at the soonest
- Barnes had issues with the Conan game by this same team

A big problem with Conan, really any game with Conan, is that everybody wants to play Conan and there is only one Conan. This game gets away from that, because the villains are every bit as entertaining as Batman, and some of the Bat Family characters have their own fanbases, especially Nightwing and Catwoman. And a Batman game will always be easier to get on the table than a Conan game. There have been 8 Batman movies, plus at least a couple more where he played a significant role, and some of those movies were pretty good. There was the old Batman live-action tv show, and several Batman cartoon series, one of which was pretty great. And let's not forget nearly 80 years of comics. By contrast, Conan has had three movies, no tv shows, a bunch of books, and roughly 40 years of comics. Most of my friends would be willing to play a Batman game, but most would be neutral or indifferent about playing a Conan game.

If I back this, I would go for the base game ($140) plus the Wayne Mansion expansion ($55), the Arkham Asylum expansion ($55), and the dice pack ($15). Including shipping, $290 is a really big buy for me, but I have spent more on some games that were totally worth it, like D&D 3.5 + Ptolus, or Arkham Horror with all the expansions. I think I need to go re-read all the reviews on Conan and think this over. I will even force myself to watch video reviews, even though I hate video reviews.

I'm in on this - Conan is a great game and Mythic Battles just arrived and so far I'm very happy with it after the first few games. I'm looking forward to a Batman game using a version of the Conan rules, and have faith that Monolith will make an excellent game.

Right now the base $140 gets 11 heroes, 17 villains, and 80-ish goons\cops\civilians, plus all the boards\cards\etc - that's pretty good value. It's certainly a far better option for me than the Batman\DC miniatures game from Knight models if I want to get my brand name superhero fix in.

Meh. I'll stick with the Batman/DC Miniatures Games from Knight Models. I can buy in at the pace I want and we get to set up any story/team-up we want. Plus, with all the different versions of Batman and major villains, I get to choose the aesthetic I like and I'm not stuck paying for Thomas Wayne and a bunch of other newer characters I could care less about. And modeling. I've had a ton of fun building little areas of Gotham to fight over.

I'll just mention that Twice is kicking all your asses again.

Shellhead -- quit confusing us with factual, well-reasoned opinions. This is an outrage thread, get on board, or get out.

Personally, Francotrash has a head start with me on it's namesake alone.

I have had a loooooot of Francotrash titles, and their satisfaction rate beats out any other current game genre. Even the "Bad" Franco trash titles were better than what many other consider merely mediocre in other genres.

I hate Kickstarter and everything it has devolved into. But I do think Laurent Pouchain is underrated as a Francotrash designer and believe that if one were to back this, it wouldn't be a "lose".

You could line up all the big funding games from KS, and the Francotrash will rise like cream to the top.

Also, Francotrash. Not this poncy "french designed ameritrash" nonsense. Their stuff as a whole deserves more recognition than simple second billing.

Mr. White wrote: I don't get it. Isn't there already some Batman board/minis game out? I see come great Batman paint jobs in the 'What Minis are you Painting?' thread...what do those go to? Of course, there are also deckbuilders, heroclix, etc.

Is there really this much demand for more Batman?

This is a crucial question that you are asking. Taking a quick look at some other site, it looks like there have been maybe 3 dozen board/card/mini games that let you play Batman, but nearly all of them suck. Setting aside the ludicrously beloved Love Letter: Batman, only of these Bat-games is ranked higher than 3,800 over there. So this kickstarter might actually be the first really good Batman board game.

Shellhead wrote: So this kickstarter might actually be the first really good Batman board game.

Hmm maybe. But I think the already present nature of just throwing some Batman heroclix on a Heroscape board produces a rather compelling combat game in it's own right.

But if this can offer something just as compelling for investigation, another Batman hallmark, then... just maybe.

Random musings on licensed games...

I've not been one to see the big draw. To me they feel....confining. I mean, why would I want to role-play or game as someone else's creation? When I ran the Conan d20 rpg back in the day...the idea of any of the players actually playing Conan never crossed my mind.

Where I can see the value in playing in a pre-established IP is that the background world building is already done. This is more pertinent to rpgs though. If I set a game up in Middle-Earth, or Hyboria, or what not players have a familiarity with the setting already from the various media they've consumed over the years. The leg work of building the world is done and all the players understand how said setting works.

However, for a boardgame, where it's generally Xs and Os, they seem they could be placed in any setting. There's not much backstory needed. Catan and Nexus Ops are fantastic games that get their theme across with the thinnest of setting layered on top.

It appears to me, again totally my opinion, that playing in one of these licensed worlds stiffles creativity. It's why I don't go for something like X-wing. All the jokes and one-liners are already there...in fact, expected to be said during play.

Oh, Space Hulk/Aliens is a _great_ example of what I mean. If a group were to play an Aliens board game, there's an unspoken understanding that certain characters act and behave certain ways. Hudson will be cracking jokes out of fear, vasquez will be tough as nails...etc. Besides the boredom of hearing 30+ year old lines again...where is the creativity for the player? However, with Space Hulk, we get the same theme, but the players can create a fresh narrative. Of course, with its roots in Aliens, a player could give Brother Gideon the same personality as Sgt. Apone from Aliens...but they don't have to. They can create their own tale and story with the character. There's no hard set, pre-baked mythology behind them that everyone at the table expects to experience.

And maybe that last line is the answer I was seeking. People expect being given an experience over creating their own in some cases. Popular IPs are one avenue for this.
For me...I'd just as soon use a popular comic or story as inspiration to create something else. Say, use a Spider-man story as inspiration for a Mutants & Masterminds campaign rather than run the characters through a Marvel setting actually using Spidey and Friends. The former seems more liberating and exciting.

This is not a "you're doing it wrong" post at all. Hope it doesn't come across that way.

charlest wrote:

Msample wrote: the word was out that the game sucked.

Where are you getting this from? It had excellent reviews, and the proof is in the fact that they did a follow up kickstarter for a hardback book of just scenarios (no minis) and the demand was so large they had to go back to the factory and setup later print runs in waves to satisfy everyone. This shows that the game has a huge amount of fans. Conan was one of the best Kickstarter purchases I've ever made. Every Ameritrasher I've played it with loves it.

In the circle of friends who got it, it was one play and done. It very well could have been buried under all the cult of the new, but it nobody I knew who got it raved about it and at least one dumped it pretty quick.

And as others have pointed out, in a Conan game, everyone wants to be Conan, not a red shirt to be hacked up. And while Batman has the advantage of compelling opponents, this KS SCREAMS FOMO money grab by the bullshit excuse that they can't afford to sell it at retail.

It looks pretty? I like French designers? But that's not enough to get me to kickstart it.

Legitimately, though, let us know how it is!

Colorcrayons wrote: But if this can offer something just as compelling for investigation, another Batman hallmark, then... just maybe.

Yeah right. It will be going up to some kind of computer token and rolling dice to get explosions/successes. WHOO ITS JUST LIKE BEING BATMAN

This is one reason why if Im not doing a *BOPF!* type of game where Batman *BAM!* isn't just socking up *POW!* baddies, then I'd rather just play Batman telltale series on my PS4.

Which by the way, is not bad at all and better than most batman video games out there simply because it isnt about fighting. The choices and their ramifications leave something to be desired, but overall pretty laudable.

Hell of a lot cheaper than buying a KS that could backfire in quality.

Mr. White wrote: Random musings on licensed games...

I've not been one to see the big draw. To me they feel....confining. I mean, why would I want to role-play or game as someone else's creation? When I ran the Conan d20 rpg back in the day...the idea of any of the players actually playing Conan never crossed my mind.

Where I can see the value in playing in a pre-established IP is that the background world building is already done. This is more pertinent to rpgs though. If I set a game up in Middle-Earth, or Hyboria, or what not players have a familiarity with the setting already from the various media they've consumed over the years. The leg work of building the world is done and all the players understand how said setting works.

However, for a boardgame, where it's generally Xs and Os, they seem they could be placed in any setting. There's not much backstory needed. Catan and Nexus Ops are fantastic games that get their theme across with the thinnest of setting layered on top.

It appears to me, again totally my opinion, that playing in one of these licensed worlds stiffles creativity. It's why I don't go for something like X-wing. All the jokes and one-liners are already there...in fact, expected to be said during play.

Oh, Space Hulk/Aliens is a _great_ example of what I mean. If a group were to play an Aliens board game, there's an unspoken understanding that certain characters act and behave certain ways. Hudson will be cracking jokes out of fear, vasquez will be tough as nails...etc. Besides the boredom of hearing 30+ year old lines again...where is the creativity for the player? However, with Space Hulk, we get the same theme, but the players can create a fresh narrative. Of course, with its roots in Aliens, a player could give Brother Gideon the same personality as Sgt. Apone from Aliens...but they don't have to. They can create their own tale and story with the character. There's no hard set, pre-baked mythology behind them that everyone at the table expects to experience.

And maybe that last line is the answer I was seeking. People expect being given an experience over creating their own in some cases. Popular IPs are one avenue for this.
For me...I'd just as soon use a popular comic or story as inspiration to create something else. Say, use a Spider-man story as inspiration for a Mutants & Masterminds campaign rather than run the characters through a Marvel setting actually using Spidey and Friends. The former seems more liberating and exciting.

This is not a "you're doing it wrong" post at all. Hope it doesn't come across that way.

Interesting points about licensed settings for games, especially regarding stifled creativity. As a fan of the idea of licensed games (as opposed to the disappointing reality of many licensed games), they present the opportunity to re-visit favorite characters and/or a favorite setting. It may stifle creativity, but it's a way to enjoy them again, with some variation for your specific game experience instead of a literal re-reading or re-watching of the original experience. Think of a licensed game as a potential extension of replay value for your favorite entertainment.

Michael Barnes wrote: If a publisher can not finance the production of a fucking BATMAN game without Kickstarter, the license is in the wrong hands. I’d like to see this “$350 retail value” board game. I smell LIES or at least exaggerations. Whatever, if it’s a Kickstarter only thing, I’ll likely never play it. I’ll get by.

Conan could have been great and there were great things about it. Kickstarter killed it.

If Fantasy Flight can put Imperial Assault in a box for $100 MSRP, $75 online, then there's NO reason a successful Batman game should be more than $100. The whole "We can't make it for that price" is a load of crap. You can't bling it out to the degree that <5,000 or so whales who subsidize all of the board game kickstarters demand, and that's where the quickest buck is, which, whatever, capitalism sucks but that's the rules of the game, so cash in.