Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

wadenels wrote: I don't like it. I'm starting to notice what Barnes was writing about earlier: there's no risk for the publisher when they use Kickstarter. That risk, when you've put your money on the line, is what drives a quality execution. I've Kickstarted seven games, and received three of them. One of the three has some of the worst editing and proofreading I've ever seen. Two of the three are beginning to appear to have been poorly playtested. There are forum posts and articles laying out dominant strategies. Basically they have their own version of the Halifax Hammer. Now the Halifax Hammer is a pretty obvious indication that Kickstarter games aren't the only ones suffering from issues like this, but so far the poor playtesting hit percentage on the games I've received through Kickstarter is pretty damn high.

Note that there's a slight contradiction here a reputable publisher using kickstarter will (hopefully) put on the market a well published (proofread, tested, ...) product.

But yup, I'm in agreement with "The Barnes" : proper, well established publishers should not have to use KS.
But I can understand the appeal of the huge exposure the site brings - not only is it free upfront money but it's also a lot of free publicity. For now.

wadenels wrote: SJG and Queen games using Kickstarter: Not awesome.

I just don't buy this at all. Frankly, most of the complaints I've seen here seem to either be a rush to establish gamer cred or else just anti-Kickstarter bandwagon-jumping.

Why shouldn't established companies be testing the waters at Kickstarter? I've yet to see a single reason that holds up under even the slightest scrutiny. In fact, if I were to back a KS project, I'd rather back an established company. It might be late, but at least I know SJG will eventually ship this game and it will have been through multiple rounds of editing and proofreading.

And, yes, I'll be backing this, to answer the thread's original question. There's certainly a "nostalgia tax" being added, but I've decided to live with that. Ogre was the first game I ever bought with my own money, so hell with it: bring on the tax. I just wish the "name an Ogre" wasn't already sold out. Because, seriously, "The DUKE" would have been an awesome Ogre name.

ehanuise wrote: ... proper, well established publishers should not have to use KS.

This is such horseshit.

Those publishers are also in business. And businesses — successful ones, anyway — are always on the lookout for new revenue streams and opportunities to reach new and/or broader audiences. Kickstarter is nothing more than a (potential) tool to make that happen. "Proper" has absolutely fuck-all to do with anything.

TheDukester wrote:

wadenels wrote: SJG and Queen games using Kickstarter: Not awesome.

Why shouldn't established companies be testing the waters at Kickstarter? I've yet to see a single reason that holds up under even the slightest scrutiny.

I've backed more than a half-dozen boardgame projects and only one *hasn't* been a previously established designer or company (the previously mentioned Gunship: First Strike). I have no desire whatsoever to deal with folks who have never done this before because Kickstarter enables any ol' design to be published (speaking of which, when *is* Milch und Gherkin going to be produced?) with little risk from backlash if the game sucks. So what if you can't get your next game published? Chances are good that the newb designer put his *best* game up for Kickstarting first; if THAT one sucks, the rest aren't going to be worth the design and production effort anyway.

Agents of SMERSH is, in my opinion, a bit of a gamble, too--and if the result is half-assed because Jason doesn't know what he's doing on the production side [there's precisely zero question that paragraph games can collapse completely if the editing/proofing sucks], it will be the last boardgame project I back from anyone BUT a person or company that actually has a *production* history to go with some design credibility.

(If SMERSH has production problems, I'd be happy to back a project--at the highest reward levels--to fly Zev in to wherever Jason lives so he can say "I TOLD YOU I could have done this easier, faster, and better if only you brought your game to Z-Man..." )

Dogmatix wrote: The only concern I would have is if they only run the 3,000 copies they were talking about and the bulk of them get bought through kickstarter.

My initial impression was that they are doing the 3000 copies plus whatever copies Kickstarter generates, as a way to get the game to more people. However I realize now that it isn't really stated either way.

TheDukester wrote: Why shouldn't established companies be testing the waters at Kickstarter? I've yet to see a single reason that holds up under even the slightest scrutiny. In fact, if I were to back a KS project, I'd rather back an established company. It might be late, but at least I know SJG will eventually ship this game and it will have been through multiple rounds of editing and proofreading.

Because when an established company switches from a model that includes such things as:

• Established distribution chain
• Advance or review copies
• A reliable release date
• Trade shows
• A product that is complete from a design standpoint

to:

• Money up front

I think there's a certain degree of integrity loss there. SJG is asking people to pony up a triple-digit figure for a game that exists in an SJG-controlled bubble that doesn't lend any scrutiny to the game itself. This is not the same thing as pre-order. Yes the game will be fed through more traditional distribution channels, but right now the Kickstarter campaign is a (successful) money grab for a product that nobody outside SJG has even seen in person.

I agree that I'd trust my Kickstarter money more to an established company than some guy's idea of the next great board game, but at the same time I have to ask myself why a company with established presence and products decided to ask for money up front this time.

TheDukester wrote: Those publishers are also in business. And businesses — successful ones, anyway — are always on the lookout for new revenue streams and opportunities to reach new and/or broader audiences. Kickstarter is nothing more than a (potential) tool to make that happen. "Proper" has absolutely fuck-all to do with anything.

Absolutely. And if a company does establish a reputation for quality products delivered through Kickstarter similar to what I expect from GMT with their P500, then I'll treat their Kickstarter products accordingly. A $100 version of Ogre might even be the right type of product for SJG to establish their reputation as a quality vendor through Kickstarter. But I'm not going to drop $100 to find out.

This looks to be a very smart KS campaign. It appears a lot of cost analysis has gone into it and that excites me. My opinion is that 3k is the base line and as the stretch goals are achieved then that ups the print run, therefore lowers the production cost and in turn that lower cost is turned back around and invested into the game for an overall better product instead of padding SJ's pockets.

For example, at $100k the blueprint poster is included in the game. So once it reaches that level the overall order is increased, production costs go down, that savings is turned into a poster to include with the game.

This is how an established company can use KS to produce an even better product and why I personally have no issues with a large company using it to launch an item.

Also, it looks like the second stretch goal is for KS supporters only. So it appears there will be KS only material. The next one appears to be the $140k level.

So which one of you said this over on BGG?

How stupid are you people? Space Hulk (third edition) was only $100 when it came out, and it had real minis. And you're just going to lend this asshole the money for free?

Kickstarter is the death of established publishers' integrity.

If I jimmy up some counter sheets and post a rulebook online, maybe take out an ad or two, would you give me $20,000 to print Milch und Gherkin?

Michael Barnes wrote: If I jimmy up some counter sheets and post a rulebook online, maybe take out an ad or two, would you give me $20,000 to print Milch und Gherkin?

The laugh alone is worth $20 to me. All you need is 999 more people to react that way and you're on your way. The scary part is, I do also believe that, with the proper shilling, you could easily do hit that mark. Shit like that (or "make Monkey Auto Races the #1 ranked game on BGG!") can easily take on a life its own and snowball...