Scoundrels

Barnes, sadly, is rational and a bit of an artistic minded hipster. Of course he's going to poo-pooh miniatures for the sake of miniatures.

The reality is that people will piss good money after bad with regard to miniatures, and do so without even considering the quality of the game. Or, at best, they'll see a video made BY the publisher (read: marketing) and then see a couple paid previews (read: infomercials), and THEN read the comments about how excited other idiots are about it for the same reasons, and FINALLY dump 150 on a sack of shit covered in shiny plastic. Sheep do what sheep do.

It's like going out and buying a Ford Festiva because the promotional commercial at the Super Bowl featured lots of 3/4 naked chicks fellatiating the exhaust pipes, followed by Eminem telling people that buying it would make them cooler and sexier.

Yes, it happens.
www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2012/02...eally-sell-any-cars/ (Fiat ad)

SuperflyTNT wrote: After reading the rules, let's get a couple points out there:
1. No dice, not really Ameritrash.
2. Card combat is not really Ameritrash.
3. Victory Point Hunting is not really Ameritrash.

Also, piratical behavior, not piratic.

1. Eh. I don't care anymore. I'd prefer a choice in place of dice.
2. Tell that to DungeonQuest.
3. Tell that to Nexus Ops.

A lotta shit to think about.

I am targeting $50ish for the price of the game. This is not a hardcore game, it's for people like me and my girlfriend who are more interested in enjoying ourselves with piracy than having the best strategy on the board. But also something that's easy to return to because it'll be different every time.

I play "Sorry" probably more than any other game, so I guess I'm going for Hasbro-type quality. Plastic where appropriate, cardboard where appropriate. I'd like plastic-injection molded ships. If there are tokens, I'd prefer them to be non-cardboard. And the map WILL BE cloth. There are certain standards, but they're only because this is what I want when I play this game. (I'd love to have clear plastic for the ghost ship token.)

The question is how much extra time should I put into these things. If spending two weeks working on the models and having a stretch goal where every ship is a unique model (right now each will just be a different color of the same model) will double the kickstarter's income, then I should probably do that. I'm not making a miniatures game, but I'm interested in raising the money to get this thing printed at a quality I'd expect of a retail product.

And I do believe it to be Ameritrash. Is dice considered a requirement? Because it's kinda poker-ish in hands being dealt, and I don't know what else I'd call the game. I've really landed on "beer and pretzels".

The main concern I have with the game right now is it's actually 90-120 minutes. That being said, it paces really well and gets more and more exciting as it goes on, but yeah, it's not an hour game. I'm testing something this week to jump the whole thing forward, maybe cut off the first 20-30 minutes of the game, but I really like the pacing it has at an hour and 45 minutes.

I don't think minatures is relevant to your game (ie. Ships). I mean, it's nice to have, but it will not have the same ga-ga factor the miniatures-centric KSs. I'd rather have colorful cardboard standees of ships if it keeps the price down. $40-$50 is good price.

I'm sick of $60+ games.

Is the Budget Game Restoration Venture this year's ERP?

I personally don't like miniatures. If they're not painted (and I sure as shit am not going to paint them) then they're just an ugly blob of plastic on a board. If they are painted, then usually the cost increases for something that to me makes zero difference. I don't play miniatures games and if a game touts the quality of its minis, even if it's not a minis game, I automatically assume that's the emphasis here and stop reading about the game itself.

Arkham Horror looks really classy with its stand-ups, and that used to be what the cognoscenti were looking for, an "elegant" execution. Now stand-ups are considered second-tier regardless of art. They're replaced instead with pounds, with the sheer bulk of battleship gray minis.

Screw it. Go with stand-ups and take the beating in the forums. The audience you're looking to sell to won't read any of it anyway.

S.

If you're going "Hasbro-type quality," which I'm not sure if that refers to the gameplay as well as the pieces, then you definitely don't need different sculpts for each ship. Stick with different colors. Like others have mentioned, what you're talking about isn't the same kind of mini that causes frenzies on KS.

I like the idea of a cloth board. That will make it unique and convey that pirate map feel. Probably keeps the cost down as well.

If you can trim the playtime to max out at 90 instead of 120, I think you'd do well. There's already a long pirate game with miniature ships called Merchants & Marauders. You don't want to set yourself up against that one.

Ignore anyone who tries to define what a "true" Ameritrash game is by specific bits or rules. Have dice or don't. Card combat or not. Doesn't matter. The nature of the gameplay is the only relevant factor.

Gregarius wrote:
If you can trim the playtime to max out at 90 instead of 120, I think you'd do well.

Definitely get it into the hands of someone who can go into cold, without you being anywhere near them while they play it, preferably someone with a knack for game development. There's a number of people around here who have a ton of experience with it, myself included (Clash of Cultures being the most well known game). These people will seem ruthless when they get back to you, but they will most likely be able to tell you how to cut your playtime. You gotta have a new set of eyes on it, and more importantly, YOU'VE GOTTA BE RECEPTIVE. There's a great big game that I've played that plenty people around here are chomping at the bit to get their hands on, but it's never going to see the light of day because it's not ready for prime time yet, and the designer simply isn't letting go.

Gregarius wrote: Ignore anyone who tries to define what a "true" Ameritrash game is by specific bits or rules. Have dice or don't. Card combat or not. Doesn't matter. The nature of the gameplay is the only relevant factor.

This x1000.

This topic really has branched into places not relating to his game.

Ignore all the back and forth about minis. You don't need them. Once nice sculpt for your ship in different colors is all you need. If you can figure a way to get clear for the ghost ship then great, if not go white, or better yet glow in the dark (great stretch goal). But use the same sculpt, you have a board game first, not a miniatures game. Different sculpts will cause you nothing but higher costs and big, big headaches (and possible a loss of a lot of money).

What you have is a board game, and this being a board game centric site, you shouldn't be surprised that there is a lot of mini-hate. But like mini gamers, board gamers look for certain things and expect certain things in games and here the devil is in the details. After all, board gamers are suckers for great looking games (just like miniature gamers are suckers for great looking miniatures).

So make sure it doesn't look like it was drawn in a cheap computer program or by your amateur friend/relative/girlfriend/spouse. Go freelance and hire someone, do it, it's worth it. Just be sure to vet them first, this is going to be the first impression everyone has, before the look at rules, before they look at anything the art and presentation is going to be the thing that keeps them looking or drives them away.

Pay attention to non-game related things like linen finishes on cards, rounded corners and sized to fit readily available card sleeves. If you're going with a cloth map make sure you pay attention to if the material you use stretches when folded at the corners causing it not to lay flat, make sure the edges are sewn or sealed so it doesn't fray.

There's been a lot of talk about miniatures being able to sell a crap game, well the same kind of holds true with board games as well. Not to say your game is crap, but a game can be fantastic, but if it doesn't look the part, it's (pardon the pun) dead on the water.


EDIT: Check out the campaigns by Red Raven Games - 8 Minute Empires and Artifacts, Inc. I think that's who you want to emulate. Then look at a campaign like Moongha Invaders or Incursion to get an idea of just how much of a headache minis can be. Also, a goal of $40k and 700 copies, that's $55+ per copy, you need to get your MSRP down. Playtime also needs to come down, reading the rules your target should be 45 mins or so. Those are the points board gamers will expect with the game weight you have.