Tight vs Loose Games

I've come to realize that I like "tight" games more than "loose" games. Whereas tight games don't come with a whole sack of cards and tokens, they still maintain a great amount of variety.

I came to realize this as we sat down today for a game of Descent (a pick-up game of a single RtL dungeon)and my brother was deciding if he should use Eliam or Aurim or Sahla. Nobody ever uses these heroes, and I think that's just sad -- and sloppy game design. Anybody ever form a party and not grab the 2 chainmails from the town store? Anybody ever go and use daggers or the bow? The tunic for example is just flat out a horrid item that is strictly worse than any other available armor from the town store. Nobody cares that it's only 50 gold, it's just plain awful.

There's a lot of wasted cardboard on variety for the sake of variety in a lot of the games I play, and it's not good. Descent's a good example, Arkham Horror is another, and Twilight Imperium is way up there also what with it's one million political cards and two million action cards.

On the other hand, we have games like Space Hulk, Chaos in the Old World, War of the Ring, Starcraft and from what I've read MEQ, that have less clutter without sacrificing variety. This is one advantage of Euros over AT, which thankfully I think is slowly being incorporated into AT game design. I like how it's a bit more minimalist, without seeming overly simplified and abstracted.

I got a good feeling Runewars will be tight, since Corey seems to have a knack for this sort of thing.

I think you're totally right on here. There is some frustration with added fluff, cards and cardboard in some games. I think the problem is that it aesthetically and mentally they get in the way of the game. I don't tend to rate "Loose" games any worse because I'll over look that kind of crap. But I'd be perfectly ok with Ti3 without Politic cards, leaders and mines. It would still be a great big bad epic game without that stuff. Action card I like even if sometimes I can't find the right time to use them. With Arkham Horror and Android there is a lot "Loose" crap, Kevin Wilson is great designer but he's not as good at "tightening" up his games as Corey.

However, the nice thing about the "Loose" games like Arkham Horror is the magical moments when you can use that crappy useless item to do something big. I actually like the "loose" items in AH because they seem more thematic. It seems more Lovecraft like to find some strange unique item that will drive you insane to destroy a monster than to use a shot gun to kill the monster. In a "Tight" Arkham Horror game all you would need is shotguns, rifles and knives just like LNoE. But the real fun part of Arkham Horror is trying to survive and win using weird "Loose" shit.

So I'd have to say I don't penalize designers like Kevin Wilson for "Loose" design but instead I would exalt master designers like Corey for creating "Tight" master pieces like BSG, Starcraft and MEQ.

The difference between the looseness in Descent versus the looseness in AH is that in Descent you have the ability to completely cut out the things you don't like, where in AH sometimes you are stuck with the crappy item but it produces a memorable story like KingPut mentions.

I think this goes back to the notion of risk management in AT games, and having the gumption to roll with the punches and use what you get. Sometimes you throw a bunch of crappy dice in WOTR -- how can you make the best of it? If you could set them to whatever symbols you want (or use a Settler-style "deck of action dice" to mitigate randomness) then a lot of the tension would go out of the game and it would feel more like that decision point in Descent -- just a pseudo-decision because the choice is obvious.

I think it depends on "how you get" more than "what you get." In Arkham Horror you're stumbling across stuff so you have to make it work. Going to the store and choosing not to buy means that the object is just one more thing that's in the way.

The time I randomly pulled the debutante in Arkham proved to be a very interesting game because it forced me to change the way I played. No tommy gun to work with. I explored another play style because of it. But that's because the random pull forced me to. Given the choice I'd have likely chosen one of my tried and trues.

Sag.

I agree with Sag above me.

The difference is in HOW you acquire ... stuff.

Because when it's an obvious choice (like in Descent), the "extras" arent really extras. It's just useless crap no one will ever use that's taking up space.

But when you don't have choice, it's about "dealing with what you've got".

I got a good feeling Runewars will be tight, since Corey seems to have a knack for this sort of thing.

With the possible exception of BSG, nothing with Corey K.'s name on it could be described as "tight." Overall, though, you're right. More stuff does not necessarily equal more game, regardless of how you get that stuff.

mjl1783 wrote:

I got a good feeling Runewars will be tight, since Corey seems to have a knack for this sort of thing.

With the possible exception of BSG, nothing with Corey K.'s name on it could be described as "tight." Overall, though, you're right. More stuff does not necessarily equal more game, regardless of how you get that stuff.

For me, a major indication if a game will be tight or loose will be the number of characters/races you can choose to play with. Arkham Horror had 16 characters in the base game, now almost 50, while MEQ has 5. Twilight Imperium had 10 races to start with (yes, I know Corey worked on the expansion) and Runewars only has 4.

You're totally right about Descent being a game that's full of choices, but many of them suck. All of the 1/1/1 characters are worthless, and there are many store items that are useless too. But there are still lots of meaningful choices: Axe vs. Sword/Shield vs. Sword/Dagger or for the mages to go with the special wizards robe or the leather armor or the staff vs. the rune.

The number of characters in Arkham Horror are much more unique because there are more stats and each one has a different load out of items at the beginning. The sheer volume of items and trying to make the best use of them work too.