New "Classics"

A recent discussion about the "meh" factor of Age of Conan got me thinking that most conversations about AT go back to same old classics over and over. With a few exceptions, they are the same games people were playing decades ago. Of course, with the internet being the internet, the hype machines keeps discussing the the new hotness as if they will placed side by side for years to go. I guess the simple question is what "newer" AT games will we still be playing in 10+ years?

I was a little disappointed to learn that I don't think it will be that many of them. Of course, if I go back to a small window in the 1970s or 1980s, I won't get too many games from that period as well.

1. War of the Ring - Popular theme? Check. Innovative mechanics? Check. Tight gameplay? Check. Production value? Well, its great but that damn collectors edition makes it look cheap. I think the biggest problem is that is getting on in years and I suspect the license won't be there forever.

2. Battlestar Galactica - I think this is a lock because of its simplicity and core gameplay. It works because the game is really the metagame and hence, it will be hard to improve upon.

3. Twilight Imperium 3 - Its such a big game and ripe for expansions for years to come. It has a couple loose corners and I can see it getting revised at some point and its the sort of game that if TI4 comes out, it might find the back of the closet but overall, its got something for everyone.

4. Descent - Probably the toughest for me to call since I don't really love the game. However, it seems like the current version of the Heroquest, Talisman, and every dungeon crawl ever made. As it stands, its the heaviest and most complex until you cross into RPGs or miniature gaming. If anything, RPGs like D&D4e & WFRP3e are moving closer and closer to its direction but that is another discussion. In that respect, I'm not sure I can see a manufacturer creating a heavier, more rich version of this style of game and so I see it as a touchstone of dungeoncrawls for a while.

Its unsurprising but noteworthy that all four of the games I thought of were FFG games.

I think the current hotness is directed at Chaos in the Old World. In my opinion, its too new to call and I'd consider it in a year or two to see if it stays fresh.

I thought that Nexus Ops, Starcraft, Last Night on Earth, and Betrayal at House on the Hill will still get some play but I've seen the shine taken off all four of those pretty quick. I still have them all and play them but I still play Junta & Age of Renaissance too but I don't consider them classics and standard bearers of AT.

Any other recent games that we'll be discussing on Fortress: Ameritrash 2020/2030 along with Arkham Horror, Fury of Dracula, Cosmic Encounter, etc?

I nuked Last Night on Earth in the forums because I think as it stands its outcomes swing far too wide and are often beyond the control of the players. The game often plays itself. But, that doesn't have to be the case. I think Last Night on Earth II (Last Dawn on Earth?) has the opportunity to greatly improve on a fundamentally sound mechanic if someone else doesn't get there first. So at the risk of sounding like a complete loon, my prediction for classic game in 2030 is:

Last Night on Earth Second Edition

Sag.

I guess that brings up another question. I don't consider 4th Edition Settlers of Catan as a separate entity than the earlier editions. It is fundamentally the same game. Where does the 2nd Edition as a game change the core so much that it is in effect a different game? In some cases, the mechanics have changed substantially like Fury of Dracula or Cosmic Encounter but I'm comfortable discussing them as fundamentally the same game, even with glaring differences of rules. In other cases like Arkham Horror or Twilight Imperium, the current ruleset is so different that you discuss them as different games.

It was just brought up on how Last Night on Earth could be tweaked but it goes back to my earlier remarks about TI3. Will it be different enough to be a "new game" or would it be considered the latest interpretation of the old one?

The Settlers editions are essentially changes in artwork and a few rule clarifications.

To some extent I think LNoE's core rule set is relatively solid but could use a couple of improvements. Where they really need a revise is in the scenarios. That may just be a scenario book, but I think more likely a second edition that changes the movement and combat rules to match better written scenarios would be valuable.

Sag.

Will it be different enough to be a "new game" or would it be considered the latest interpretation of the old one?

You could ask that question of almost any game that's come out in the last 10 years or so, couldn't you? Not just board games either.

mjl1783 wrote:

Will it be different enough to be a "new game" or would it be considered the latest interpretation of the old one?

You could ask that question of almost any game that's come out in the last 10 years or so, couldn't you? Not just board games either.

With movies or video games, its plainly a question of sequels and mindlessly derivative design. In boardgames, I think the question is trickier. Outside of expansions, I don't think you have too many sequels. I think the fact that the medium is less expensive to design in, you actually have more innovation. Of course, most games come back to simple mechanics of play a card, move a piece, or roll a die, but their have been a fair number of games in the last 10 years that are "unique".

I think Android is the standard bearer of innovative but even something like Battlestar Galactica is fresh. It's not just rehashed mechanics, there is something distinct in the game. A video game equivalent would be marketed as Shadows of Camelot 2: Electric Boogaloo or BSG: Gin Rummy Quest Game using the exact same mechanics but different art.

In boardgames, TI3 is not often considered alongside TI1 or TI2 and is treated as a different game. Arkham Horror is defined by the new game and I rarely, if ever, hear discussion of the prior game. Fury of Dracula has supporters have both versions. Settlers of Catan or Carcassonne undergo some changes and they are still the same game in any discussion. Barborossa to Berlin 2nd Edition or Command & Colors 2nd Edition are the same game with their earlier editions in any discussion.

Some venerable block wargames like Quebec 1759 or Napoleon get pretty substantial changes and they are the "same" game. Same with Russian Campaign or any other number of wargames.

In boardgames, TI3 is not often considered alongside TI1 or TI2 and is treated as a different game.

No, I understand what you're saying, griffter. I just you could make a pretty good case for TI1, 2, and 3 all being the latest interpretation of Conquest of the Empire.

mjl1783 wrote:

In boardgames, TI3 is not often considered alongside TI1 or TI2 and is treated as a different game.

No, I understand what you're saying, griffter. I just you could make a pretty good case for TI1, 2, and 3 all being the latest interpretation of Conquest of the Empire.

I get what you're saying as well. However, I think its limiting to see all "Dudes On a Map" games as the same thing and derivative of one another. Its sort of harkens back to the whole "Seven Basic Plots" for all stories. I'm sure we could come up with a similar theory for games - Man vs. Man, Man vs. Puzzle Game, Man vs. Influence Track, Man vs. Rule 17b3ii (Man vs. Berg?), whatever. It could be refined to AT specifically - Dudes on a Map, Dungeoncrawl, Backstabbing Game, etc.

Conquest of the the Empire is a stereotypical Dudes on a Map game. But so are alot of the other avowed classics of AT - Titan, Shogun, Fortress America, Diplomacy, etc. Build up your armies through minor resource management and smash the other guys at the table. Written like that, everything is just a Risk variant. Somewhere the differences are enough that we refer to it as a "classic" and other times they aren't enough and it gets thrown in the junkpile.

Sorry for tossing a wrench in your thread. I think your core question is excellent and would like to see it continue to get attention. What are the games coming out now that will be seen as classics twenty years from now?

S.

Sagrilarus wrote:

Sorry for tossing a wrench in your thread. I think your core question is excellent and would like to see it continue to get attention. What are the games coming out now that will be seen as classics twenty years from now?

S.

Thanks for the redirectgion. I've said that I believe it will be War of the Ring, Descent, TI3, & BSG. Uba chimed up with Ghost Stories & Last Night on Earth (though I disagree, I see her argument). What do you think Sag and why?

I've got something like Chaos in the Old World on the fence but I can't make a call on that for a year or so.

I really hope Starcraft has the staying power to become a new classic. I think it is the best game to come out in the last few years.

I hope that we can all look back at this thread and laugh in ten years. It seems likely that better games may come out in the next several years. Or at least better games than Last Night on Earth or Descent. Think back even five years ago, what were the new "classics" then? A Game of Thrones? Arkham Horror? Arkham Horror is definitely looking like a new classic, but AGoT has dropped out of sight.

Descent will never be much of a classic as it's niche is getting even more crowded than it was before. I still say it's just a baby step into more serious dungeoneering adventures and it might get the nostalgic good memories but never actually come off the shelf. I mean how many people are still playing Heroquest?

I think Chaos has potential but it's too soon to really call it.

I think Heroscape is going to have some staying power. It does suffer from a similar baby step problem that Descent has in its respective category, but I think that it does a much better job of being an all around great game. Plus the huge amount of figures and rarity of some always helps to hype things up.

Cutthroat Caverns is going to be something that people are still talking about in a long time, though it's going to be more of an underground classic than a Dune or CE.