Advice for playing Cutthroat Caverns?

I was super-excited about this game, picked it up (along with all the expansions), and began prepping to introduce it to my group...

It was all going so well...

...when a group-member with a low tolerance for rules-vaguery played the game with a bunch of non-RPGing fun murderers. He then comes back and poisons my group by stating that the game just doesn't work, has incomprehensible rules that make no sense, and is fundamentally broken.

FUCK!

I let it sit for awhile, but now I'm itching to get this one out. Do you have any suggestions for play (common pitfalls, rough bits you've smoothed over with repeat plays, etc.) as I sack-up to reintroduce this to a possibly hostile group?

This kills me 'cuz it should be perfect for us—we gleefully RPG and play lots of raucous Ameritrash.

Any help appreciated.

I would discuss it separate from the group with the person who hated it first. See if you can convince him to try it again with a different group. Tell him what you're looking for the game to be like when played with your group and see if he thinks it can be fun like that. If you can get him to at least not speak against it when you suggest playing it'll probably help.

This is one of the rare jewels of our game group. It's probably our favorite game, even if it's not as epic or as smooth as the other games. It's the sheer interaction that the game generates that makes it work.

My main suggestion is to seed the Encounters. The events can be randomized, but a seeded Encounter deck will do wonders for your game. The game has to be REALLY challenging for it to be fun, if you cake walk it, your players won't feel the tension between cooperating, and backstabbing each other -- and this is where the game really shines. The co-op versus winning the game dilemma.

We usually go weak 1-2 prestige monsters at the start, then some 3-4 prestige monsters and then finish it up with 5-6 prestige monsters. Nothing like a Gas Bag at the end of the game to deflate the mood. (We take out the Potion of Iron Skin when we seed it like this, because the game becomes all about holding on to that potion until the end of the game, and waiting for everyone else to die out.)

Alternatively, just use really strong encounters the entire game. This forces players to play together, and puts the hurt on everybody, making it more cutthroat, because it's just as easy to help each other as it is to kill someone off. Greed, Ashtongue, Battle Troll, HYDRA, Hate, Ragnarok, Clockwork Golem, Barrier Magus and Thantigist.

Character powers - even though we always play with them, I find them superfluous and unnecessary to be honest.

Rough bits - the game turn can be very unintuitive. Have one player distribute the initiative cards and plop them down face up in front of the players. Have another player distribute the new cards (or put the deck in the middle of the table for everyone to draw), make this person in charge of reshuffling the deck as it runs out. YOU, as owner of the game, should make sure you know how each Encounter works ahead of time. Don't bother reading the Encounter out loud, just explain it in layman's terms, and if anybody wants to read the Encounter, let them do so.

Play with Events. They are awesome. Everyone loves items.

Good luck man. This game is so awesome, you wouldn't believe it. We've had an awesome awesome time EVERY SINGLE time we played it.

Don't play with dickheads?

Unfortunately the bottom line in a lot of ways is that if people aren't into playing it for fun, then it can kind of fall apart. It's not as bad as something like werewolf, but it really is primarily a game about the social interactions and meta gaming aspects of how best to screw everyone else though not so bad that you get yourself killed too.

Really though, I dunno. In a game with so many possible combinations some stuff can eventually crop up that isn't expressly covered in the rules, but then you just have to go with what makes sense. Also, I think there are updated rules and a FAQ on the Smirk and Dagger site. Though I honestly can't think of too many vague bits in the rules.

I will say that I've played it a bunch and I've never had any real issues with it being broken or poorly ruled.

I think the rules are fine. Pull your friend aside and explain the situation, and give it another go.

My only tip on the game is this: it DOES break if EVERYONE isn't playing to win. I know that sounds stupid, but it's true. If everyone works together, the game becomes too easy, and hey, someone at random wins in the end. If there's just random backstabbing, again, the experience breaks down. It's a touch fragile like that, really. Otherwise, though, great game.

If your group has a poisoned mindset, you're going to have to be on top of things to keep it from going poorly. That blows.

I second the wisdom of seeding the encounter deck, and of distributing jobs. Make someone other than you responsible for Initiative cards (we just mix them up and fan them out for a quick draw). Make someone handle the cards. Your job should be ticking down the turn list, calling out when things can happen for the first few turns (at least), and then calculating damage to and attacks from the monsters.

One of the most unintuitive things about CC is the activation time of potions. People who just took a 20-point shot from a monster will *always* say "I want to drink my potion now...". During the learning games, you should always say at the right time (ie after monster pull and and first initiative draw) "Now is the only time to tap the potions you want to use, anyone? No? Okay, window is closed. Let's fight."

You can stop doing that when people get it, but it takes a surprisingly long time. There are also a few finicky interactions between cards, but if you start having cranky lawyers, go directly to the real damage stack rules, and start actually rotating cards and physically assigning the riders instead of doing it in your head. That solves most of the "are both my attacks doubled on a Slip Behind/Double Strike combo?" sort of derails.

It's supposed to be fun. And it delivers.

Get rid of Hero powers.
Houserule that the iron skin potion only works for 2 rounds.

Thanks for all the info—lots of concrete advice here. I really do expect this to work well for my group.

One more question: is there a sweet-spot for number of players?

I like the full five because it's at it's craziest and doesn't really add too much to the time or complexity.

Also, everyone else's suggestions are much better than mine.

HiveGod wrote:

One more question: is there a sweet-spot for number of players?

Nah, it scales fine as long as you dont take it too seriously.