"A Guide to Westros"

Michael Barnes wrote:

Anyway, I think LOST CITIES is a bad choice. BATTLES FOR WESTEROS is probably a better pick for gaming with your S/O, as it's apparently based on some Harlequin romance novels.

This is off-topic for this thread. Please move it to the SPOUSEDOME.

I'm usually a lurker here, but I felt that I had to speak up. This usually gets me in trouble at the other site (and once here), but folks here seem a lot less like whiny little bitches that cower behind internet anonymity.

I don't really like the direction that FFG is heading in. I mean the games for the most part are still great, but their business tactics are what gets to me. Peterson has as much as said that the Battlelore Core set wasn't going to be reprinted when he called it "non-manufacturable." Maybe they didn't know this when they acquired the license, but I have a hard time believing that. These guys know exactly what they're doing. I'm sure they knew it when they released three sub-par expansions which include a little less collectively than a big box Arkham exapnsion for a total of $90 msrp. It would have been a bad move from a business standpoint, but it would have been nice to tell the BL fans that they didn't have plans to support the title any further than these expansions.

My other issue is the new price point on their products. It's gotten absurd. $100 for Runewars? C'mon guys. They know that fan boys will pay pretty much whatever they ask for their products, especially when hyped for months, and I think it's a little shitty. It's the same thing as the movie industry. While in the midst of a recession they found they were making unprecedented profits. So what do they do to the beleagured American people? They raise the prices. Same as FFG.

Now I understand that business is business, and profits have to be made. Hell, I'm a business owner myself. But during this recession when we found we were moving more product than before (I own a punk rock bar, and when times are tough people like to drink their sorrows away.) we added recession specials and didn't raise prices when our suppliers did. A small thank you to our customers for sticking by us in tough times. Obviously not everyone can operate like this, but I think the asking prices on FFG's new titles, all of which are just spoiling for expansions, are way too high for what you get.

Most folks here seem to defend FFG to the last, (like G.R.R.M's fans do him) and I would have done the same until about a year ago, but I think this was just a little too shady. And for the record I'm a huge fan of A Song of Ice and Fire. Martins writing leaves quite a bit to be desired, but the story itself and the characters are amazing. Maybe he should get a new editor. I wouldn't mind checking out the game, although I can't really see how it jibes with the books, and the $80 price tag is a little dissuading. How much will the inevitable Greyjoy, Tyrell, Baratheon, and Targaryen exapnsions cost? (Although introducing the Ironborn in some kind of naval capacity could be interesting)

In closing I'd like to echo Barnes' sentiment that I would much rather have a game with quality cardboard components (ala Arkham Horror) that was made in the US, than the same game with four pounds of unnecessary (but nice) plastic that was produced in China for inhuman wages with byproduct being dumped into rivers.

Who is really going to pay $100 for Runewars anyway? More and more people get their games at a discount internet based retailer for much less.

I paid less than 99.99 for each of my two Space Hulk third edition sets directly from a local FLGS that gives me a discount because I'm a good customer.

If you don't like the price, don't pay it.

Of the three mystery FFG games, Runewars intrigues me the most. I'm still interested in Horus Heresy and BoW too though and I'd like to give them a whirl.

FFG, Z-man, AEG, Privateer Press, Games Workshop, Flying Frog and a few others make the games that are the thematic games that I like most, with or without plastic. Plastic components don't close the sale for me, but they are icing on the cake.

In closing I'd like to echo Barnes' sentiment that I would much rather have a game with quality cardboard components (ala Arkham Horror) that was made in the US, than the same game with four pounds of unnecessary (but nice) plastic that was produced in China for inhuman wages with byproduct being dumped into rivers.

Yeah, well, I see plenty of lip service being paid to this idea, but when push comes to shove, that seems to be all it amounts to.

Who is really going to pay $100 for Runewars anyway? More and more people get their games at a discount internet based retailer for much less.

Precisely because of this bullshit. As long as nobody has to actually pay what the publisher's asking, they'll still buy the games regardless of the fact that this just helps push prices even higher. After all, a $100 game at a 30% discount still costs more than a $90 one at the same markdown.

If you don't like the price, don't pay it.

If you don't like the price, stand by your conviction and refuse the publisher your business.

mjl1783 wrote:

Precisely because of this bullshit. As long as nobody has to actually pay what the publisher's asking, they'll still buy the games regardless of the fact that this just helps push prices even higher. After all, a $100 game at a 30% discount still costs more than a $90 one at the same markdown.

It is a simple fact that no one has to pay $100 for Runewars. Until you convince me that I'm somehow being fooled into actually paying $100 for Runewars, you aren't making much of a point. No shit that 30% of 100 is more than 30% of 90, that still doesn't make the final price $100.

If you don't like the price, stand by your conviction and refuse the publisher your business.

I don't mind the price for a good game. You are also nearly parroting what I said exactly (so I'm not seeing why you had to quote me and say the same damn thing). Don't buy those rediculously expensive games if you consider them so. Sales drive company decisions. If you really are so price sensitive, shop thrift stores for the best $5 games you can find and screw the FLGS and online retailers altogether. That will teach them for messing with the likes of you. Or... really hold onto your convictions and don't play any new games... EVER. If all of us do that, then all the game companies will go belly up and we won't have to bitch and moan about the prices. We can then reminisce about the good old days when there were games... I'm getting teary eyed about it already.

It is a simple fact that no one has to pay $100 for Runewars. Until you convince me that I'm somehow being fooled into actually paying $100 for Runewars, you aren't making much of a point. No shit that 30% of 100 is more than 30% of 90, that still doesn't make the final price $100.

More is more, Moto. If the price goes up by $10, you're still paying $10 more than you did for the same (or a comparable) product than you were a few months back. The actual number isn't actually the issue, the increase is. The number 100 just throws the skyrocketing game prices into sharp relief. The complaint is the same no matter what the final price is.

You are also nearly parroting what I said exactly (so I'm not seeing why you had to quote me and say the same damn thing). Don't buy those rediculously expensive games if you consider them so.

"Don't buy those games" is not saying the same thing as "Buy them, but don't pay what the publisher is asking," which is what you originally said.

Sales drive company decisions. If you really are so price sensitive, shop thrift stores for the best $5 games you can find and screw the FLGS and online retailers altogether. That will teach them for messing with the likes of you. Or... really hold onto your convictions and don't play any new games... EVER. If all of us do that, then all the game companies will go belly up and we won't have to bitch and moan about the prices. We can then reminisce about the good old days when there were games... I'm getting teary eyed about it already.

Yes, Moto, because that's exactly what I was getting at. My point wasn't simply that you should actually draw the line somewhere with regards to what you're willing to pay instead of bitching and moaning about it, then going to an online discounter and paying the extra $10 anyway. Nope, I was definitely saying we should all stop buying games altogether, and I was definitely saying that I was going to teach FFG not to mess with the likes of me.

Runewares retails at A$135 here, which is the same price I paid for Middle Earth Quest and Conan. I felt Runewars was better value for money.

If I really like a game I want it in the best form possible - that includes miniatures over cardboard if it makes sense. I'd rather have fewer games than more games of a lesser quality. Free time is not infinite after all.

I have believe in global trade so have no problems with Chinese manufacturing in this area.

If I don't think something is worth the cost, I wont pay for it. Pretty simple really.

jay718 wrote:

(I own a punk rock bar,

Where at? And what's it called?

Mark me down as another of those suckers who will pay top dollar for a boardgame no questions asked. I don't mind the big bucks because I don't generally buy a lot of games so when I do plunge... I'll pay 100 + no problem. This magical 100$ barrier was broken ages ago for those of us outside of the states. Fuck, I paid 350$ for my Carrom board!

I also don't really give a shit about Chinese production. They're doing everything they can to catch up to our standards and I totally understand. Plus this allows me to buy plastic figs with my games... good deal for both of us. If there is indeed some mistreatment at the plants... well I hate to support that but I imagine my money goes to support much worse things. Everytime I buy metal I in some way support a mining company that probably makes money selling metals to weapon production fascilities... and so on.... but since I work for a giant mining company, I've had to reconcile these things years ago.

But back on track... I've never been interested in Battlelore (or anything DOW for that matter) but BoW does look interesting and the removal of the limitations based on flank and whatnot can only be a good thing. I may actually read GRRM stuff one of these days.. it certainly higher on my list then watching BSG, which is intolerable to me. The liscence is a big so what to me. I love BSG the game... but will never finish watching the series. I really doubt that I will need to read GRRM to fully grip this game. After all, Game of Thornes is still fun.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

If I really like a game I want it in the best form possible - that includes miniatures over cardboard if it makes sense. I'd rather have fewer games than more games of a lesser quality. Free time is not infinite after all.

Agreed. Cheaper prices are nice for games that are unknown quantities, but when it's something I like I don't want to think that they skimped on components to save me money. Give me Acquire with large plastic tiles, 2x-sized Dune board, and wooden Civilization pieces (all of which I've paid extra for) over all the cardboard chit versions of those games, which are not only uglier, but less functional (I have a hard time imagining Dune on that tiny board included in the box, or Civ with all those chits that blend into the board). I mean, yeah, you *could* do Heroscape with cardboard chits...but gawd, who'd want to?

I'm willing to spend more money on better components, and I'm a GRAD STUDENT.

Something to take note of, it is not just FFG knocking up prices. GW and Privateer Press have had to incresse the prices of thier stuff a lot. The price of raw materials to make stuff has gone up. This is more than likely much greater when dealing with metal for minies but it has to matter else where too.

Here is a question for you guys: What is a good $ amount for an hours entertainment? Is a game that will get 60 hours of use by 4 people worth $100? How much would it cost to take the same 4-6 people to the movies for 2 hours of fun? The longevity of a good boardgame gives you so much value on the $ that i find all this bickering slitly crazy. Yes its a sucky trend.

I understand your sentiment Leon, but that whole "a board game entertains X number of people for Y hours for Z dollars so therefore it's a good value" just doesn't work. For that argument to work, you're assuming that what the company is selling you is FUN. Fun is not included among the component lists, nor is fun part of the manufacturing costs. You can have just as much fun with four people using a $2 deck of cards or for that matter, a piece of paper and a pencil, as you can with a $100 board game. If you can't, then you're in this for something other than what I am, that's for sure.

As for FFG, there is absolutely an element of hubris in their pricing. They have an incredibly strong brand and market presence, and with that comes loyalty and the freedom to price almost at will. Again, I have to stress tht if they can charge $100 for a game, they should. Provided that it is consistent with the remainder of their product line, which I increasingly do not think is the case with many of their more recent titles. To use our topical example, BATTLES FOR WESTEROS offers you more "stuff" than RUNEWARS at a lower price point and more than this theoretical $150 (or is it $200, according to the original post) copy of BATTLELORE that apparently can no longer be manufactured so that if you want to play this system, you have to buy BATTLES OF WESTEROS which isn't really a BATTLELORE game come to find out. Despite the fact that it says that it's a BATTLELORE game right on the front of the box.

I'm really trying to figure out the logic that FFG is using in all this. "We don't want to charge $150 ($200?) for this game because we're the good guys, but we're going to put you on the mill for an $80 base game plus who knows how much for who knows how many expansions". And if you were invested in BATTLELORE before- you're on a sinking ship, no matter what they say.

I also don't understand the logic of buying BATTLELORE if they didn't like the theme or concept. Was buying BATTLELORE cheaper than simply licensing the C&C system from Richard Borg? If it's really that much of a diversion from the C&C system, then it doesn't need the BATTLELORE logo or the C&C system to begin with!

And I also don't understand why they're balking at a $150 price point to begin with. At the rate they are increasing prices, in five years we'll be paying $150 for their $100 games anyway. Because they're able to, and if you believe in capitalism, it's what they should be doing if the market will bear the price.

There are TONS of people that would buy a lump of shit in a box with the FFG logo on it at $100, and they are well aware of that. It doesn't help that people here and elsewhere respond to FFG price increases with online comments like "I'd pay twice as much for their games". I've done it too though...complained about $100 games and then said I'd pay $1000 for SPACE HULK. Getting into that ephemeral valuation that ultimately isn't about anything sold in a box. What message does that send to publishers? "Sure, we like it up the ass...raise prices!"

And I do think that deep discounting absolutely enables companies like FFG to raise prices- they make the same amount of money whether Boulder sells their games at a $5 margin or a $25 margin.

If I really like a game I want it in the best form possible - that includes miniatures over cardboard if it makes sense. I'd rather have fewer games than more games of a lesser quality. Free time is not infinite after all.

See? This I respect. "I want it, I'm going to pay for it, and I'm not going to bitch" is what he's basically saying. What I have a problem with is the "God forbid I should have to play with cardboard, but no way in hell am I paying what the producer actually asks for the game even though I think it's an outrageous price, so insteadI'm going to piss and moan and buy it at a huge discount which does fuck all to discourage price hikes" attitude.

Agreed. Cheaper prices are nice for games that are unknown quantities

Which is exactly what we're talking about with Runewars. Not only that, but even enthusiastic early adopters have been throwing out caveats about it left and right.

Give me Acquire with large plastic tiles, 2x-sized Dune board, and wooden Civilization pieces (all of which I've paid extra for) over all the cardboard chit versions of those games, which are not only uglier, but less functional (I have a hard time imagining Dune on that tiny board included in the box, or Civ with all those chits that blend into the board).

Strawman. "Cardboard components" does not mean "1790s-level production value," and you know it. You could do an all-cardboard Dune reprint with easy-to-manage components and not have it cost you and arm and a leg. Besides, I've played the game on that "tiny" board. I guarantee it's the same damn game you're playing.

I mean, yeah, you *could* do Heroscape with cardboard chits...but gawd, who'd want to?

Well, this is a terrible example, but the answer is "nobody." That's because Heroscape is a shitty game with fun toys, and without the toys, there's not point. But it's also a terrible example because Heroscape is $40, which is a perfectly reasonable price.

Something to take note of, it is not just FFG knocking up prices. GW and Privateer Press have had to incresse the prices of thier stuff a lot. The price of raw materials to make stuff has gone up. This is more than likely much greater when dealing with metal for minies but it has to matter else where too.

No, none of what we're talking about is exclusive to FFG. More than that, I can't think of any single publisher conistently on par with them in terms of production quality at prices which are much, if any, lower. The increasingly rip-offish expansions are just par for the course these days as well. No question.

Comparing the prices to movies is apples and oranges. You may think board games are a better use of the money, and that's your business. It doesn't change the fact that board game prices overall are much higher than they have historically been even in constant dollars.

Wow. I totally agree with MJ.

The movie thing is so laughable to me. Yes, the price of a ticket is outrageous these days. But you're getting an opportunity to look at something that cost MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to manufacture. So if we're going to do that production cost versus "experience" cost...movies win.

But there again, millions of dollars don't buy fun, artistic value, or entertainment quality...can you imagine if film studios said "Hey, we're Warner Brothers, people like our movies...we'll charge just a little more because our movies are the most fun"?

Fundamentally it comes down to the package boys. If you're not pre-ordering you likely have a pretty solid idea of what's inside the box just a few hours after its released. If it's worth it, buy it. Doesn't really matter who's name is on the cover.

Except for Space Hulk. DAMN YOU GAMES WORKSHOP AND THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON!!!

S.