1st Battles of Westeros expansion

Who cares?

A) It's yet another GoT thing, and FFG have been pretty up front about the fact that they plan on milking that property for every dime they can get out of it, so there's no reason this should come as a surprise to anyone.

The words "Core Set" are right there on the game's box. That's boardgamespeak for "money pit" and everyone knows it.

C) What difference does it make when they announce the expansion? Is it the fact that they're now getting balls-y enough to tell you straight away that they're selling you an incomplete game to get you on the hook for a line of expansions? They've been doing that for quite some time now, as evidenced by the fact that the words "inevitable expansion" come up almost every time a new FFG game is being discussed. Until now, nobody's given a shit that they've been doing it. In fact, they've been asking for it.

I'm lost, what am I supposed to be offended and upset about?

I'm lost, what am I supposed to be offended and upset about?

Pick one of the following:

1) The lack of proper box inserts/the use of the same insert across several games
2) The state of: the economy/global warming/health care/ealderly care/education/arsnic content in childrens' playgrounds etc.
3) The lack of good family content on prime-time television
4) Vasel's Vasco de Gama review
5) The treatment of the psuedo-internet-game-culture you choose to associate yourself with
6) The lack of proper smilie use for this mildly sarcastic post

or if you live in the US or Saudi Arabia:

7) The teaching of Evolution in science or biology classrooms

I kid, I kid.

Cheers,

Giles.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

I'm lost, what am I supposed to be offended and upset about?

That lack of good anal action in Butt Sluts #9 - Nursing School Asses.

There is this anti-FFG sentiment going on right now here on FAT. It started with Runewars, and then continued with the announcement of Battles of Westeros and the actual Horus Heresy release and is continuing on, hurting(?) the rest of the FFG product line.

Some of it is deserved, mainly with the horrid Horus Heresy box contents, some of it though is just collateral damage.

Like this one. If they hadn't announced it this early, everybody would pile on about how it's an incomplete game and they're ripping people off blah blah blah. Damned if you do, and blah blah.

See, I actually like this announcement. I was actually thinking about getting the game, but now I see that it's not for me.

For my part, I'm not anti-FFG in any way, shape or form. I remain supportive of the company and the good work that they do in supplying the hobby with some of the best games ever published and for standing as a benchmark that other companies should be striving to compete with in terms of quality and ambition. However, I think that the way they do business has changed even as recent as the past six months. And yeah, I'm pretty disappointed in the way that some things are being done as a fan of the company. It's impossible to ignore that they're giving us less for more and their marketing and product formats smack of hubris and over-confidence in their fanbase's willingness to buy anything with the FFG brand. In a lot of ways, they're doing the right things by monetizing their properties and exploiting the extended value that their titles do offer. But I also think what we are seeing is a transitional period occuring where they're kind of leaving the "cottage industry" stage behind and becoming a full-fledged big business, and their business decisions are reflective of that. Part of that is a more profit-oriented strategy that puts revenue over consumer satisfaction and community opinion- doesn't matter how many online jerks like me bitch, that doesn't show up on the ledger at the end of FY 2010.

The point I'm trying to get across here is that FFG is, at this stage, another Games Workshop or even a pre-Hasbro WotC. They've ascended, and part of that is a more corporate (and IMO cynical) apprehension of the consumer base.

At the end of the day, I'm sure they've considered the impact of this kind of expansion and how it will be recieved. Thinking it over some more, I think their logic is that they want to demonstrate that BoW will be consistently supported to prove to BATTLELORE fans that the game won't be left high and dry. But frankly, I think that's some fucked up logic because many fans of that game have been really put off by BoW, and it doesn't make sense to approach the expansion of BoW in almost the exact same way as DoW did with BATTLELORE- incremental releases of things that reaally should have been part of a core set just to extend the product line over several SKUs and purchases.

I have the old Battlelore still at home. No way I was buying one more version of that only with a different name. But the changes that they seems to make to the system sounds interesting. Bows can shoot over your own troops if they are on a hill. A troop that is flanked can only battle back once. Etc. A lot of good ideas. And a lot of the components they have shown off so far look quite the same as in Battlelore. Guess what. I'll just take some of the best ideas out of this new game and apply it to the old battlelore game and see how it works. Best of two worlds. Try to get the old game to play better and not spend a lot of cash on buying the same material once more just to get the improved gameplay.

Hey, at least they told people before the first game out that they would be getting on a release treadmill- now people can decide to not even bother getting on the thing if they don't want to.

As soon as I saw the price wasn't going to be $100 my intrest dropped off. Cheap crap. All kidding aside they have been pretty up front about where this line was going. The main box does state "Core Set"...if that doesn't tell you you're in line for a slew of expansions then perhaps reading classes are in order.

Announcing this before the actual core set goes on sale is perhaps their marketing department being a little skittish expecting perhaps that the intrest for said core set isn't where they want it to be. Either way I won't be buying "Battles for Westinghouse".

I thought Days of Wonder was pretty upfront about what their intentions were for BattleLore from the start. They implied it would become a "lifestyle" game similar to a miniatures game. Future releases would expand armies and offer new units and creatures, etc. Time showed that the expansions actually released didn't fully jive with fans' interpretations of that vision, but what's done is done I suppose.

If Battles of Westeros were labeled a miniatures or collectible miniatures game would anyone be getting riled up? Those games have introductory "core sets" and then expand further with different units. I don't see anyone pissed off about MonPoc, Arcane Legions, Warmachine or 40K. Is it just because Battles of Westeroes is a "board game" and people have different expectations as such?

I definitely won't be buying it but it's not really a problem to me... no real bait and switch here so I'm fine with it. It'll certainly be interesting to see how successful this approach is for them as they get more and more incomplete with their releases. People may not have liked that Runewars, for example, didn't include 5-6 players in it but it was definitely a full and complete game.

Despite Barnes' endless bleating about prices which for me is just a rolleyes, I do agree with his last post that FFG definitely seems to have professionalized and seems to have hired some business consulting about what was working (licensed games, expansions, needing their own IP world (Terrinoth)) and what wasn't. Comparing them to big gaming companies like Games Workshop feels very fair at this point and I think they'll start behaving the same way. Hopefully their product support will continue to be as good as it has been. Which reminds me, I need to e-mail them about some dice in WFRPG v3.

metalface13 wrote:

I thought Days of Wonder was pretty upfront about what their intentions were for BattleLore from the start. They implied it would become a "lifestyle" game similar to a miniatures game. Future releases would expand armies and offer new units and creatures, etc. Time showed that the expansions actually released didn't fully jive with fans' interpretations of that vision, but what's done is done I suppose.

If Battles of Westeros were labeled a miniatures or collectible miniatures game would anyone be getting riled up? Those games have introductory "core sets" and then expand further with different units. I don't see anyone pissed off about MonPoc, Arcane Legions, Warmachine or 40K. Is it just because Battles of Westeroes is a "board game" and people have different expectations as such?

Great point to explore -

I'm not familiar with the various GW and other lines of minis, but how does Battle for Westeros compare when viewed through this lense? Anyone?

Like I said, there was never any doubt that this is a game that will require multiple purchases- like you've all said, it says "Core Set" right there on the box and we all know what that means. Aside from that, FFG would figure out a way to expand Tiddlywinks if they published it. So I think the outrage isn't so much from them announcing an expansion so early (come on, were you really surprised?), it's the character of the expansion. At least that's what gets me. I don't like that it's something focused on one side instead of a more inclusive expansion that supplements the full game. And I don't like that it appears to be not much of an actual expansion in the first place, just something else to buy. ANd finally, like I said, this is exactly the same kind of expansion that drove BATTLELORE into the ground.

The thing is, FFG doesn't need to do this to tell us that the game is going to be expanded by announcing an early expansion...the FFG logo tells us that.

The bottom line, however, is that none of us have to buy the core set or anything else in the line. It's all totally optional. But I don't think that forecloses on our right to comment or be critical about their current business strategies.

And yes, they are VERY skittish about this game for a number of reasons. I sincerely hope it works out for them, but I have my doubts. The "mystery box" announcement was blamed for a lot of the negative sentiment, but I'm afraid there's more to it than that. There are a lot of challenges in marketing this game and there's a lot riding on its success- they're trying to launch a flagship product line into a hostile environment, half-using a license that has both rabid fans and rabid detractors. I don't envy their position in all this at all.

But what if this is their new Warhammer (haha) line. Or at least something they want to model structure-wise?

You could buy a base game that included pieces for 2 sides, but then from there you bought something specific to your army, yes?

I have no problem with faction specific expansions. It's not random so you know what you're getting upfront and if you don't like the way a faction plays or it's not your favorite team, then you don't buy it.

Plaid Hat Games is doing a nice job of this with the Summoner Wars expansions. The difference is Summoner Wars has two starter sets for four factions out the gate and its first expansions are two new factions.

Where I see FFG's problem is in the execution. I don't see why anybody would purchase a Lannister expansion without buying a Stark expansion at the same time. The game would be totally lopsided. Before they start expanding the core factions they should introduce the new factions. Release a Barthaneon army or something.

I believe Colby has plans for expansion for existing Summoner Wars decks. How are you guys going to feel about those?