Card Combat - I like it

Cards have almost no mass in comparison. The only tactile feel is whether they are satin coated or not.

Normal dice have ZERO learning curve. Custom cards can have a BIG learning curve. Even custom dice are a roll and count the symbols affair. It isn't a moot point.

The only dice I've ever had any problems wear issues with were HQ dice (though still perfectly readable) and the old ass el cheapo D&D basic set dice. Other than that you can't reasonably compare the wear betwee the two. Bend a card in half. Now bend your dice in half... What's that? You couldn't do the latter? There you go. It's simple to mark up cards too depending on the quality of the cardstock and coating. Dice results are out in the open, everyone can see them, the very nature of rolling them with the sound and visual feedback draws people's attention to them.

I'm not arguing for card combat/resolution in all games, I simply prefer dice in most cases.

Great point about component wear. Two of the green skill cards from my BSG are now marked, thanks to player who doesn't trim his claws very often.

Look at the only examples of quyality dice games in this thread:
"Space Hulk, WotR and Chaos in the Old World "
All 3 are pretty much the same, roll either 5 or 6 on X number of dice depending on the situation.
No one has done anything interesting with them in combat for many years. Maybe there is nothing left to do with them?

Button Men has an "interesting" dice combat mechanic. Firefight uses a WotR-ish dice selection mechanic in a tactical minis context that's pretty cool. HoG: Bunkerstorm maps range, attack strength, armor penetration, and precision to the same dice roll somewhat like Descent, only you get to chose which dice go towards what value.

That's three games off the top of my head that don't just go with the standard roll-5-or-higher mechanic, give you some control over your outcomes, and make you think. I'd say they're at least as interesting as Runewars' or Warrior Knights' lousy card combat that gives you no choices at all.

I don't see the point in novel combat mechanics just for the sake of them. Starcraft isn't interesting because its combat mechanic is different from other games, its interesting because the combat and building are so intertwined.

Cocks and buttholes are never aimless, but I'll try to remember to leave my serious hat on for you at all times Captain Grumpy.

I'm not grumpy about it. I just find it interesting that, when trying to describe a game in terms that make it sound attractive, you decided that likening it to having a big dildo forcibly shoved up your ass was the best way to go about it.

I'm sure that, to some people (and clearly, you're one of them), that's a good time. It's just a fairly unconventional way to sell somebody on the merits of a game.

Grudunza wrote:

There's something particularly cool about how they represent fate that is beyond the player's control.

Holy shit, this just gave me an AWESOME idea for a horror game.

Imagine a game where the card combat was done with a real tarrot deck!
You do a mini reading for each character to see what the results are. Don't get death!
That would possibly be the first boardgame ever which was actually scary.

JonJacob wrote:

Cards can elicit emotion and have weight and a feel just like dice do.

If the players don't respond emotionally to good or bad draws... well that's the groups fault. We certainly do. Cheers and bitching have been seen in our games with cards and no dice.

Could not agree more. Many a time have I sworn over a shitty card draw, or weept when a bad card was revealed.

Shellhead wrote:

No, it's in opposition to the ongoing BGG meme "randomness is bad." Seriously. FFG has bought into the BGG argument that dice are too random and that cards offer a more stable play environment. FFG game designers probably know better and are just trying hard to please the BGG crowd, since they are the biggest audience in this niche market.

I doubt that is the reason why - many of the card combat designs FFG have used are just as random as dice. Runewars is a prime example. I think cards are just a less restrictive media to work with, and cheaper too. Runewars would have needed something like 7-8 custom dice (all different) to replicate what the fate deck does.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

Imagine a game where the card combat was done with a real tarrot deck!

See Mystick: Domination and Mystick: Companion.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

I doubt that is the reason why - many of the card combat designs FFG have used are just as random as dice. Runewars is a prime example. I think cards are just a less restrictive media to work with, and cheaper too. Runewars would have needed something like 7-8 custom dice (all different) to replicate what the fate deck does.

I replaced the Runewars fate deck with 5 d30s and a simple CRT. It is identical to the deck and goes much faster. The only difference is that you can't count cards to figure the odds conditional on the discard pile....but I am irritated by anyone keeping that much track of the cards, especially since "card tracking" doesn't make a lot of thematic since in Runewars.

@Space Ghost

Actually, after my friend convinced me about it, d30s are NOT identical to the Runewars deck. With d30s, you actually have a chance of rolling all misses, as each dice has a steady chance to roll that miss, while with the deck, the more misses you draw, the less there are in the deck. Of course the converse is also true, the more hits you draw, the less there are in the deck, so maybe it all evens out in the end.

The differences are mostly neglible (but, your point is what I meant by the odds changing conditional on the discard pile).


For instance, there are 12 misses for triangles. So, the likelihood of getting 4 misses on dice is about 2.5%. If you used the cards, it is about 1.8% --- the speeed gained from just rolling the dice and looking at the table (and not having to shuffle the cards) is worth it for us.

Vote: Dice.

Because you can't use cards with a dice tower.

I'm not anti-card combat. It depends on how it's done.

I will say that the sound of a fist full of dice being flung into a cardboard box as my hoard of dudes attacks your horde of dudes is extremely satisfying to the ears. Sort of like racking a Remington 870. It just sounds good.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

I wouldn't say I'm tired of it, I just find it an interesting mime. For all the hankering everyone has for dice, I haven't seen them actually do anything interesting in quite a while. Look at the only examples of quyality dice games in this thread:
"Space Hulk, WotR and Chaos in the Old World "
All 3 are pretty much the same, roll either 5 or 6 on X number of dice depending on the situation.
No one has done anything interesting with them in combat for many years. Maybe there is nothing left to do with them?

That an interesting point. What games out there have done something cool with dice resolution in say the last 6 years? Here's my short list.

Space Hulk - I'm not sure this counts since it's an almost verbatim reprint of the 1st edition rules. I do love that they added in overwatch for melee though.

WotR - Yeah only 5's and 6's hit in combat with some modifiers to that from cards. I think the real dice innovation in WotR is the action dice mechanic. That felt fresh and is still a big draw to the game.

CitOW - I loved the dice combat in this. Again, it's the same 5's and 6's hit but with the added bonus of "Explosions" where you get to re-roll 6's for more van-damage. This mechanic totally felt "in character" with the games theme and made it's combat resolution exciting to me.

Conan - Yes the game is a snooze fest but the combat dice mechanics were good. Depending on what terrain you were on, cards in play, and if Conan is participating, more sides of the custom combat dice would register as "Hits". I really liked they way they used those dice in the game. Too bad the rest of the game sucked.

Manoeuvre - I know this is a bit off the AT reservation, but bear with me. Manoeuvre is fun, easy to play, has lots of dice, is thematic and high on the carnage factor. Put simply it's a game of abstracted Napoleonic warfare. The more effective a unit/army is the better dice they get to roll. Note I didn't say more dice, I said better dice. A unit that's weak would only roll d6's while a totally kickass one rolls d10's. The variety of dice types in the game make it stand out from the d6's only crowd. Plus it's a lot of fun when you pick up the d10's. You know that something's gonna die.


-Will

I'm not sure who's worried about the wear and tear of cards. I own a shit load of games and a few of my buddies do too and no one has any ruined cards (well, one of my Cutthroat Caverns cards is a little bit bent, but we still use it cause no one can tell). I did sleeve the Runewars fate deck, for five bucks why not I guess but it hasn't been neccessary at all. It's the only game I've ever sleeved and honestly it had more to do with the fancy new colour coded sleeve pack sitting next to Runewars on the shelf.

I thought you guys were geeks! Who's folding the fucking cards!

It also sounds like people want games to be innovative and give us a new way to play one day and the next we want every game to feel like the games we played when we were 16. I like that FFG is trying new things, I like that they continue to push themselves forward and try new idea's. I like that they are using cards to fuck around with combat a bit (although admittedly it doesn't sound like the right touch for DungeonQuest) and I love Runewars combat system. It's a blast and that tiny little deck, which takes up almost no space, does an awfull lot in the game.

Runewars combat is fast, as fast as TI3 (which is one die per ship, except war suns) simply because it's been streamlined in so many other ways independent of the cards. So when I draw a card for combat it's very easy.

They did an excellent job and mostly what we do is bitch about it.

This card combat stage will pass as well, I'm sure of it. The new ToI expansion comes out soon and man... there's a lot of dice in that game.

It comes down to this. There are two games I can think of that in general everyone agrees should not have had card combat. DQ and to a lesser degree HH.

That's it. Really, all this bitching about card combat is based on two titles?

Bulwyf wrote:

Conan - Yes the game is a snooze fest but the combat dice mechanics were good. Depending on what terrain you were on, cards in play, and if Conan is participating, more sides of the custom combat dice would register as "Hits". I really liked they way they used those dice in the game. Too bad the rest of the game sucked.

Good point. The dice in Conan were used very well. But everyone hates it still. Die combat does not garuntee a good game.

I still want this game to be good and if only you didn't attack the board for 85% of the game it could be, I think it can be fixed.