Valley Games is run by dim witted, sleezy crooks

I think there's a few hurdles to clear before any phonecalls to China can even get underway. Money tied up in the courts can stay there for an extended period of time, especially if there are multiple creditors looking for a cut from the remains of the business(es). There's a big difference between being awarded the money by a judge and it actually being released to you. It's pretty doggone easy for someone to file a motion to make something not happen.

Unless Pete you have expertise in this as well and would like to make corrections.

And Mr. Sauer may have pressing money concerns of his own that require the money to be sent in another direction once it is released.

S.

Creative Commons all the work on UpFront done to this point ok ty

From a strictly financial point of view I think it is unlikely that Phil would simply take over the Upfront Kickstarter.

Look at it this way - Phil is currently out $250,00. Up Front brought in $300,000 in cash, after the 10% off the top. For the sake of argument let's say he gets $250K plus the IP. Now we have legal expenses, etc... So best case he comes out whole, not with any extra money in his pocket.

If he decides to simply pick up the Kickstarter, he has to pay for all the printing, without any additional revenue, except for post-Kickstarter game sales, which are tenuous at best.

So everyone is asking him to basically pay out of his own pocket to print Up Front so that they can get their copy - even though Phil told them that there were legal issues and they should not sign up for the Kickstarter.

So would it be really nice for Phil to go ahead and print anyway? Yeah. Is it the 'right' thing for him to do? Very debatable. That's asking an awful lot.

That thread is everything that is wrong with BGG rolled up in one place. Looking past all of the armchair lawyers talking out of their ass, including people calling the courts and attorneys involved to request information, that thread has turned now into a rallying cry by people on their high horse to get others to demand a refund come June 1. If successful enough, that would kill the project (hurting the people backing who don't refund) and take potential funds away from Phil Sauer. Really, that would be the worst outcome for all interested parties.

The only winners would be the self righteous people who helped give the Valley guys "what was coming to them."

"And Mr. Sauer may have pressing money concerns of his own that require the money to be sent in another direction once it is released."

That sounds ominous.

This is how I saw it, assuming that the legalities don't get in the way:

He has 260k, the game is developed and ready for print, there's 2500 backers. He has 2500 units pre-sold, so he spends 60k getting 5000 units. He then sells the remaining 2500 and makes 20K back.

He's has the cash from the judgement less attorney's fees, 20K more from proceeds of sales. He ends up with the IP to a,shitload of games, a new game publishing company that has as much goodwill as any company has ever had, and no long-term liabilities of class-action backers trying to sue him. There's zero case there, but it would cost money to defend against the suit.

Seems like a hell of an exit strategy to me, but that's just my take.

Sag: I've never had this kind of thing...I once had someone violate my patent but it was settled and I sold the rights to the company. Nothing went to escrow, it was a check from the company to settle and then another to sell the patent.

I'd think once a final judgement is handed down it would be very fast to get the cash. Maybe 6 months from the end of proceedings, if you consider he has to get a couple court dates, which isn't fast.

Ochobee wrote: That thread is everything that is wrong with BGG rolled up in one place. Looking past all of the armchair lawyers talking out of their ass, including people calling the courts and attorneys involved to request information, that thread has turned now into a rallying cry by people on their high horse to get others to demand a refund come June 1. If successful enough, that would kill the project (hurting the people backing who don't refund) and take potential funds away from Phil Sauer. Really, that would be the worst outcome for all interested parties.

The only winners would be the self righteous people who helped give the Valley guys "what was coming to them."

what the fuck are you talking about? People getting refunds for something they no longer think they will receive (or have morally decided they no longer want to back) is the worst outcome for all parties? Not for the people who get their money back and get the fuck out of dodge. How is that the worst outcome for them? Its best they leave the money there where they potentially might just throw it down the drain so some pair of cunts get to attempt to make good the shit they created by being lying thieving cunts. What kind of fucked up world do you live in where somehow its not the fucking crooks who are cunts, but the normal people who decide, hang on, I don't think I want to risk backing this project now. FUCK YOU

self righteous people? It's Valley who are fucking crooks, let's hope they do get whats coming to them, the cunts.

My money is too scarce and too valuable to "gamble" on a product being made. Unless I know and trust someone (like Richard Launius), I am not going to involve myself with crowdfunding anymore.

I don't fault anyone asking for their money back when they did not get a product or service they did not pay for in a timely manner.

craniac wrote:

"And Mr. Sauer may have pressing money concerns of his own that require the money to be sent in another direction once it is released."

That sounds ominous.

I didn't mean to imply ominous. He may have a kid in college that needs tuition paid, or could be building a house, or frankly he may have another project he'd just rather put the money into. It boils down to this -- if awarded to him by the courts, it's his money and he can do as he likes. He didn't promise anyone anything in this Kickstarter. If I had the license for Up Front fall in my lap I'd sell it to someone that actually has the wherewithal to make something of it.

I believe the people that sent money to Up Front are considered creditors just like anyone else and can appeal to have their funds returned. They'll be in line with anyone else that has advanced money to the . . . I don't know what to call them . . . suite of interconnected corporations . . . that are involved in this legal issue. My guess is that Valley-Radiant is going to go belly-up and everyone that files against the bankruptcy will get some fraction of their money returned. I have no clue how it works regarding who's first, who's second and so on, but I'd wager the language in the Kickstarter agreement is in the mix. I know with stocks creditors are paid in a hierarchy depending on the "quality" of the stock purchased.

I gotta be honest with you bomber, I appreciate the KS backers are out their money and that that sucks and that there's a bank account that appears to represent their cash, but Kickstarter carries significant risk just like any other P500, and you're making a leap of faith when you buy in. There's something to be said for exchanging your cash for a physical product instead of a promise.

S.

ldsdbomber wrote:

Ochobee wrote: That thread is everything that is wrong with BGG rolled up in one place. Looking past all of the armchair lawyers talking out of their ass, including people calling the courts and attorneys involved to request information, that thread has turned now into a rallying cry by people on their high horse to get others to demand a refund come June 1. If successful enough, that would kill the project (hurting the people backing who don't refund) and take potential funds away from Phil Sauer. Really, that would be the worst outcome for all interested parties.

The only winners would be the self righteous people who helped give the Valley guys "what was coming to them."

what the fuck are you talking about? People getting refunds for something they no longer think they will receive (or have morally decided they no longer want to back) is the worst outcome for all parties? Not for the people who get their money back and get the fuck out of dodge. How is that the worst outcome for them? Its best they leave the money there where they potentially might just throw it down the drain so some pair of cunts get to attempt to make good the shit they created by being lying thieving cunts. What kind of fucked up world do you live in where somehow its not the fucking crooks who are cunts, but the normal people who decide, hang on, I don't think I want to risk backing this project now. FUCK YOU

self righteous people? It's Valley who are fucking crooks, let's hope they do get whats coming to them, the cunts.

Thanks for proving my point-

Normal people that decide they want to back out is one thing- but people who rally a mob and say fuck you to everyone who doesn't agree with them is different. What is the best chance for Phil to get back as much of what he is owed as possible? By having Valley generate cash to pay him. If people like you instigate a mass chargeback against that kickstarter it takes away funds that Phil can have access to. It kills the project- which means that people who don't get a successful chargeback (whether they ask for one or not) don't get their money back or the product they thought they would get. So yeah, that's a bad outcome for the two groups who aren't "fucking crooks".

Valley is fucked either way.

The only people who win in that scenario are the people like you who feel they are waging war on "fucking crooks who are cunts". Your attitude is "fuck everyone else, I'm only interested in my own good." That's pretty much in line with what the guys at Valley have done with their behavior- you're in great company, there.

It's Friday.....it's 5 o'clock...it's Crackerjack!!!

I don't know if people are mobbing to get their money back because I no longer plan on reading that thread at BGG but that's hardly a suprising reaction if they are - they didn't create this mess and they are under no obligation to solve it. Why would I leave my money in limbo if I have a right to get it back? If you are conscientiously trying to help Phil out (for a bad loan or whatever he gave to VG to increase his chances for compensation) that's great. But no one is morally obliged to do so with their money. This isn't their fault. You can hypothetically have a consumer who doesn't know or care who Phil or any of others in the case are, but just heard the reprint wasn't going to happen and wants their money back. Not that unusual. If the assets aren't frozen, you kind have to wonder why anybody would stick it out.

I have never kickstarted a game and I don't plan to BTW. This kind of major fuck up is why I want companies to be liable - no one should expect anyone else to pick up the tab.

also comparing idlebomber to the assholes at VG, you're being a bit of an ass yerself Octobee. But shit, it's friday. let's have us a cookout!

I think you are missing my point, i dont give a fuck because I realised BEFORE the deadline that these guys were crooks so i didnt back, instead I bought a genuine copy.

I am saying that no one has any right to tell anyone else what to do with their money, lay any fake bullshit guilt trips or some kind of "lets be in it for the gipper" shit. There are exactly 2 cunts in this scenario. Rik and Torben of Valley Cunting Games. Fuck them. If you are one of the people now standing to lose your money, heck, it's up to you but it would be cuntish behaviour to tell them they cant try to get their own money back, thats for sure. Also Phil Sauer is out 250,000 dollars, so good luck to him too.

I am not instigating anything, people do what they want with their money but you criticising them for deciding not to leave their money at risk (especially as some people may not have known about the shitstorm) is frankly bullshit of the highest fucking order. I am staggered that you think you can criticise what someone else does with their OWN FUCKING MONEY when new information comes to light, because they are somehow "ruining" the prospect of some other people getting their stupid fucking game. Are you fucking mental?

Rik and Torben are criminal fucking lying cunts. That is pretty clear.

If you wanted to risk your money on it, thats your fucking choice but dont you dare judge any other person if they decide whoah I think I will take back MY OWN FUCKING MONEY when the lying cunts have at no point been honest about what they have been doing, and indeed have since been found changing fucking evidence and dates and paperwork to try to hide their slimy fucking crookery

So here's my sugggestion, forget about the game, withdraw your money and buy a copy off ebay or one off artscow if you must and stop this bullshit "you gotta stick together bollocks" just because some people are panicking that their precious is not arriving. get in line, you're about 250,000 dollars behind someone else already.


edit:
added a few cunts to spice up friday freakout

summary:
dont tell other people what to do with their money, cunt.

And you missed my point-

I also don't give a fuck what you do with your money. Show me where I told you or anyone else not to back out.

That thread has become a place where people are using their speculation about what is happening with that project to encourage other people to bail out. They aren't just pulling their own money out, they are actively encouraging others to do the same- and the theme being pushed is that it's due to the "fact" that the game will never get made.

That's the issue. You can't say "fuck you- don't judge me" to someone who says that pulling your funds is a bad idea and not pass the same judgement on to the group that says everyone should pull out.

Lighten up, Francis.

The thing is this: Valley managed to piss away 260K in loans and not produce dick. Oh, not to mention the 400K they got from Kickstarter.

As Phil once said, "They'd fuck up a free lunch".

Phil should get every penny, fuck the backers because they knew the risks going in, and NO, the best way to get his money back is to get it back, not let a couple of Hamburgler-style criminals attempt to make money by producing Up Front.


HAVE YOU SEEN THIS MAN IN THE VALLEY?