Improving wargame promotion and rules explanation.

adamant wrote:

Vid I made for Barren Victory II a few years back. Got me 4-5 orders and the game was canceled because of lack of interest.

Would you be willing to tell us your thoughts as to why you believe this video didn't help sales?

Would you be willing to tell us your thoughts as to why you believe this video didn't help sales?

I would think you're better able to answer that one. Why didn't you preorder the game?

adamant wrote:

I would think you're better able to answer that one. Why didn't you preorder the game?

Well, I have some thoughts on the issue, but I'm really not your target market for this game. Since:

1. I have no interest whatsoever in the ACW.
2. I'm more of an Ameritrasher than a wargamer, but when I do buy a consim, I'm really looking for multiple scenarios or campaigns (recent purchases: Fields of Fire, B-29, the first two Field Commanders, and Hornet Leader 2), not single battles. Even if they allow for a fair range of what-ifs, I wouldn't buy a single-battle game unless I already knew I loved it. Which brings me to point 3:
3. The price point, even at the preorder discount, is out of my range. Again, I'd have to know I loved the game to buy it. Otherwise, I'd rather put the money into something like ASL, with its scenarios and expansion possibilities. It's even worse now, with the economy, the weak Canadian dollar, and the astronomical cross-border shipping. (It did look like you were getting a top quality game for your money, it's just not my personal preference.)

So my opinion probably doesn't help understand why the video didn't do what it should have, since I wouldn't have bought the game under any circumstances, anyway.

The reason I asked for your thoughts was that the video was exceptionally well produced compared to pretty much every other video I've ever seen for a boardgame. I was almost shocked when I saw it. I find it impossible to believe that it only generated 4-5 (!) preorders. So I'm wondering where the failure was. There are a lot of possibilities, but I don't know the market at all, and I don't know how or how well this game (and video) were advertised in this specific case.

My thoughts go back to Gary Sax's OP. What the video did well was set up the context of the battle, display the artwork, reference the first edition, sell the designer's expertise, and explain that gamers would have more what-ifs. What it didn't do is tell me how the game actually played, i.e. mechanics. If you haven't played the original, the video alone doesn't give any sense whatsoever of what the players will actually be doing. Is that important? My gut feeling is yes, since theme alone doesn't always sell a game. I really don't know. But there's something else going on here that resulted in the lack of response, and I suspect it's not just that videos are useless.

I gotta tell you, since I opened the conversation with Adam back in January I think he's convinced me of a helluva lot more than I've convinced him, largely due to the feedback I've seen on games both here and on that other popular boardgaming web site. Wargaming don't get no respect on BGG.

My best guess is that wargaming (let's draw the line for that to exclude the Memoir/ToI family) simply has too high an entry barrier for even most hardcore gamers. I'm not saying this as a dig -- I'm not implying that they're stupid or weak, it's just that there are some concepts that are pretty central to wargames that make them less attractive, including playtime and number of players. Most have dice as well but that's a slice of lunacy I don't even want to get into.

I have one other theory on this: eurogamers care too much. One of the things that struck me at Winter Offensive was just how quickly the players would execute their turns in spite of a tremendous amount of complexity and number of options on the board in front of them. Wargamers have no compunction about marching cardboard to its death, and they don't fear mistakes. A lot of eurogamers want to review every branch of the decision tree and figure out which move is best and that just can't happen in wargames, even the simplest like Risk are too complex for it.

So those are the drawbacks that virtually any grog title is going to have to deal with when attempting increase market penetration in the lightweight gamer category. I don't see how to overcome them head-on. Instead you have to focus on other ways to generate sales. Possible? How many of us pre-ordered Kawaguchi after Adam came on here and pitched it? Did we give him a reason to come back and talk to us again? Did it work at all?

Outreach and communication is key. That's the answer, right? But . . . what? What do you show? What do you do?

Images of the game itself -- BGG is fickle as hell when it comes to images. Oh and this just in . . . so is F:At. We all just led a revolt for Waterloo over there, remember? As customers, we suck. If Starkweather had half a brain he'd get a job at Kinko's and print a couple of copies of each game for him and his buddies and let the rest of us rot. Given the P500 sales model, images of the game pieces is fraught with peril, and frankly nobody cares. Show the front of the box and leave it at that. Spend a buck there to make it pretty.

Videos -- they a) look unprofessional as hell or b) cost a lot of time and money to put together right. Two bad options.

The web page -- OK, here's where I think they could make inroads, and apparently MMP is planning a change. MMP's web site is the kiss of death. It doesn't need flash, it needs substance. Were it me I would get a page or two of the rules up on the site. No sense giving it all away, but a sample of how a turn plays out or even the phase order synopsis is sufficient for getting a feel for the game. Images are nice and all, but they're secondary material. GMT does a pretty solid job of this -- they incorporate public domain images of paintings and sculpture and the like to rub some gravitas onto the game. The publisher isn't boxing themselves in with images of the game itself, but there's something there to set the mood and break up the text on the page. That's fully sufficient. The text matters though -- explain the setting in more detail, point out unique features of the gameplay, pretend for just a moment that you've come up with a unique gaming concept that is worth experiencing. Oh, and add some links to additional reading.

Warriors of God did most of that well on BGG. The painting by Ingres -- available for Windows wallpaper with some of the pieces on the image, etc., was plush. Also, Adam had a very detailed gameplay session up on the web in October of 2006 -- 18 months prior to delivery. The artwork in that session is not final version (pieces in particular but the map changed too) but that didn't matter -- nobody cares because of the context. That session was great content and anyone on the edge of wargaming will feel more comfortable taking a flyer on a pre-order if they have a better understanding of what they'll get. The 64 question is: how many of them are there out there? Enough to make it worth the effort?

That's my two cents, and that's why I've been whining about it. Some of this stuff just isn't all that expensive or time-consuming if someone is tasked with doing it. Multi-Man Publishing doesn't appear to be putting any emotional investment into their outreach and that's a shame, because there's good product. It's not my business to pry into their relationship with the designers but I would be curious to know how much of the PR is handled on each side of the house. I'm guessing MMP doesn't do much. If they do, maybe I'll drop off a resume on the way home. Web page content development -- pay me in games.

Sag.

I'm not sure that light-gamers can ever be turned into wargamers. I think it's a futile effort.

It's just another facet of the "how do I get my wife/parents/cow-orkers/dog to play games?" It looks more likely since they play some sort of games already, but I just don't think it's ever going to work. The grand-scale stuff, the options, the time investment, the price, the wicked wicked dice, and the sheets of counters... all these work against the light-gamer. I'm absolutely not suggesting that wargame designers change their methods (well, any more than they want to, I mean it's not the 1970s and game designs do change), because I don't think they'd get any more customers and I think the games would suffer for it.

Here's the part where I stand up and say "I'm not a wargamer". I suppose I could be, I have no aversion to it. But I don't have a support system for it, and I'm not into it enough to stockpile games for "what if", and hope to get some PBEM games. I just don't have a strong enough desire for that.

If I had steady opponents who were interested, I might reconsider. However, even amongst my friends who play games, I get to be the rules-reader and explainer. If I have to poke them through a four-hour game, we're both going to wish we'd done something else. Sucks, but that's the way it is.

I do think that both MMP and the other publishers could do more to get their products out there, but spending a lot of money on it would be absolutely foolish. BGG players don't care, with the exception of the wargamers who are already there and even though some of them bang the drum quite well I just don't see any increase in light-gamers caring.

About the Barren Victory II video, I found it well done, but I wish it had focused on the *game* a bit more. There was a lot of information about the battle itself, and very little about the game. For driving up orders amongst wargamers, I'd assume they already know the details and want to see the implementation. Non-wargamers who watched that would have said "wtf is this history channel crap", before they even got to the "it's a game?" part.

Put the focus on the games, if you want people to be interested in them. They are the product, after all. This applies to websites, print ads, videos, whatever. Now, different approaches are going to be necessary for seasoned wargamers and new buyers, but that's always the tough part.

I think wargamers are just as likely (if not more likely) to come from the ranks of non-gamers as they are from light-gamers or eurofolks. However, the multitude of threads on BGG will tell you that the conversion rate from non-gamer to any type of gamer is still quite low.

(see, I haven't even been fully converted myself...)

i think wargamers themselves can put a lot of people off. look at the wargaming subform on the BGG, it is so so boring. there are a few characters capable of signs of life, but it seems in the last few months that forum just became a place for self-worthy amateur historians to pontificate about how much they know about shit and slobber kisses on the wehrmacht.

Except for the "wehrmacht" part, how does that differ from the rest of BGG?

i was thinking that myself as i wrote it.

but i am sure it didn't used to be as bad?

Not Sure wrote:

I'm not sure that light-gamers can ever be turned into wargamers. I think it's . . . blah blah blah . . . change their methods (well, any more than they want to . . . blah blah . . . don't have a support system for it, and I'm not into it enough to stockpile games for . . . blah . . .

I do think that both MMP and the other publishers could do more to get their products out there, but spending a lot of money on it would be absolutely foolish. BGG players don't care, with the exception of the wargamers who are already there and even though some of them bang the drum quite well I just don't see any increase in light-gamers caring.

. . .


I think wargamers are just as likely (if not more likely) to come from the ranks of non-gamers as they are from light-gamers or eurofolks. However, the multitude of threads on BGG will tell you that the conversion rate from non-gamer to any type of gamer is still quite low.

This is the thread entry of the day -- give that man a cigar.

To some extent I feel bad about jerking Starkweather's chain, though he was kind enough not to use the phrase "let me tell you sonny . . . " at any point during his response.

I hadn't played a legit wargame since 1980 when I started working my way back into it in 2007. I came back to gaming through euros and figured that it's a logical progression -- wargames are deeper and more complex, steeped in theme, and provide a solid head-to-head competition for those that want to prove their mental prowess. That sounds like euros on steroids, at least if you're to believe the press. But no one seems interested to follow me down that path. I have one buddy that likes to spill blood with me -- one of the guys I played with in the seventies. The rest have been pretty up front about their complete lack of interest.

In spite of looking better, playing faster, having less down time . . . check all the boxes, the main part of the boardgaming audience just doesn't want to play them and seems to be intent of finding excuses not to. I have to admit I'm a bit perplexed.

Not Sure's comment on not spending too much is spot on. That had been the goal of my original post though it got lost in the 1000+ word ramble I went off on. I think web sites for these games could be greatly improved with little financial cost, though time and effort will be required. MMP and its associates may be well aware of what additional financial resources will bring, and it may not be very much. We're talking about a company whose lineage goes back just shy of fifty years.

Sag.

BTW, this discussion for me is about getting people to prepub games. After the game comes out, my sales are excellent. But if I can't get the prepubs, I can't get the sales.

Lets see - what I have I tried?

Full game replays (take about a week to do and about half of them get turned down by BGG anyway)...

Sent out free home printer friendly copies to allow players to actually play the game.

Made professional vids...

Took out ads.

Promotional give-aways.

Advance copies of the rules


I guess just variations of all of the above...but not one thing has shown to have a major impact on sales. It is an odd market for sure. The one thing doing this stuff does do is make those that preordered the game feel better - that you are doing something to make their wait not so long (it doesn't really do anything - but they think it does). There is some value in that...

The big things that work are topic firstly and art secondly...Topic is obvious from the posts prior here (the "I am not really your market for the game but this is what you should do" comments)...of course you are my market. You just have preconceptions about what the game is and I can't get you off it. And if you think you have no interest, you aren't going to see the stuff that I can do to get you off of that perception (why BGG just stinks as a marketing device - too niched and I can't get to a wider audience).

My new game, "A Most Dangerous Time" is my wife's favorite game. She thinks she isn't a wargamer (just like you folks above). She can't understand why people would rather play the 60th version of the Bulge and not this one...She likes that it has more depth than say Warriors of God and she likes that there are no tanks or planes (she isn't big on those)...but for all of you above that say I am not your market - you are - all of you would like AMDT under the right circumstances but you don't think so...and all the vids I make or whatever I do won't change your topic bias...and topic is what it is all about.

My next prepub group will have 7 games - 5 of which are on WWII and 3 of which are on the East Front. It is what prepubs well...I wish it wasn't so but it is...

adamant wrote:

BTW, this discussion for me is about getting people to prepub games. After the game comes out, my sales are excellent. But if I can't get the prepubs, I can't get the sales.

I think that major detail gets lost in the shuffle sometimes, when armchair advisors (like me!) say "you know, what you should blah blah". The prepub model is the financial insurance you guys need to stay solvent in this fickle niche business. It's not normal economics, and typical rules don't always apply.

The big things that work are topic firstly and art secondly...Topic is obvious from the posts prior here (the "I am not really your market for the game but this is what you should do" comments)...of course you are my market. You just have preconceptions about what the game is and I can't get you off it. And if you think you have no interest, you aren't going to see the stuff that I can do to get you off of that perception (why BGG just stinks as a marketing device - too niched and I can't get to a wider audience).

Yeah, I think I *am* a segment of your target market. I'll be honest, I don't own any MMP titles. But I know who you are, and have some interest in the things you do. It's just a matter of me finding the right product. I wouldn't presume to say I'm typical of your target market, but I'm certainly in the "low-hanging fruit" category. The question is: "what turns me into a regular customer, and how many other people does it get?" I don't have a good answer for that.

My new game, "A Most Dangerous Time" is my wife's favorite game. She thinks she isn't a wargamer (just like you folks above). She can't understand why people would rather play the 60th version of the Bulge and not this one...She likes that it has more depth than say Warriors of God and she likes that there are no tanks or planes (she isn't big on those)...but for all of you above that say I am not your market - you are - all of you would like AMDT under the right circumstances but you don't think so...and all the vids I make or whatever I do won't change your topic bias...and topic is what it is all about.

Oddly enough, AMDT *is* the MMP title I'm most interested in, and nearly pulled the trigger for pre-order. The problem I have is that the topic/assumptions aren't an issue for me, but probably for who I'm going to end up playing with. Maybe I need a better class of friends. If I can get them interested, I'll pick up a copy, since it's unlike anything else I own (a big plus for me when game shopping).

I appreciate your discussions here, and especially your no-bullshit attitude. Unlike BGG, I'm not going to get my feelings hurt by someone telling me I don't understand how to run their business for them. I know that already, I can't even figure out the common thread in games *I* want to buy, much less what the world needs.

Well, I wish I could hook you in...not sure I buy the "no one to play" argument...I would buy a "I don't want to play this game enough to find others to play" argument...

But if you really do mean "I have no one to play with" then what's wrong with a little proselytizing? We had a couple over last week and I broke out Star Force (segued from the ole Human League lead in - works like a charm every time). The wife had fun and wants to play again - John Carter anyone? Oh you liked Star Wars? We should play Freedom in the Galaxy...

What's this?

Oh, that's my newest release - on Feudal Japan....ever seen Seven Samurai?

It has a 4 player game in it...treachery, back stabbing - just like marriage...you'll love it.

"Cool, let's try that one". "It looks great"...

And so it goes...

(and the hubby sees the blood and guts stuff and wants a look-see ASAP at that - without the wife...)

I appreciate your discussions here, and especially your no-bullshit attitude.

Glad to hear it but someone is reading this and posting on consimworld about how big a douchbag I am within minutes of my typing...

Part of the job...

You got any promo material for Most Dangerous Time? The time and place don't excite me but if the game is good I'll consider giving it another look.

Sag.

It is shipping now so you can't order it for a little while anyway...

My suggestion is to wait and look at the BGG reviews now.

I pre-ordered AMDT even though I've cut the majority of my p500 budget. What got me to pull the trigger was:

-A subect I haven't gamed much.

-Final artwork that helped sell the theme and create atmosphere.

-Adam's rep for putting out tight rulesets that needed little to no clarification after the fact.

-pbem support in the form of a Cyberboard module.


Now I've just got to wait for this sucker to show up on the doorstep.

-Will