Advice needed - ASL or SL?

For a long time I have been dreaming about ASL and now is the time to get it. I know that I will love the game and one of my friends is interested too so I won't have a problem finding a ftf opponent. The question is: How big is the difference between ASL and SL? Are there any key rules missing? There is a plenty of time to decide as Beyond Valor is still OOP but I just wanted to know the differences so any advice would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

The answer, of course, would be: neither. Get the ASL Starter Kit(s).

I haven't played ASL, only SL. To me this was all I expected out of a complex, tactical WWII game. The advantages of SL are that you get a complete game in one box and that it is pretty cheap. Still, I bought the game before the Starter Kits were out, and ASL is both expensive (you need rules and module/s, the latter of which are often out of print) and tough to start with, since the rules weren't meant to suit beginners. It was assumed they had already played SL. These disadvantages were taken care of with the Starter Kits though.

ASL and SL are similar of course, but there are significant differences. For example vehicle combat is different. The whole system is more detailed (advanced) in general, too. However, even if the Starter Kits simplify the entry into the system, you really need regular opponents to get the most out of the game. I haven't played SL in two years and I would probably have to read/learn major parts of the rules again.

Schweig! wrote:

Still, I bought the game before the Starter Kits were out, and ASL is both expensive (you need rules and module/s, the latter of which are often out of print) and tough to start with, since the rules weren't meant to suit beginners. It was assumed they had already played SL. These disadvantages were taken care of with the Starter Kits though.

I started with the Starter Kit and found that last statement to be patently false. I personally think the rules in the Starter Kits were a sign from MMP that they really don't want new players to play ASL.

I even had access to a real ASL player and he pointed out quite a few things from ASLSK #2 that you were required to know to play even the most basic scenario and yet weren't in the book. He said the ASLSK rules were total crap and taught us how to really play. The best part was that my opponent also learned the rules from the ASLSK rulebook and we both showed up to play with a different understanding of how the game worked, and both of our opinions differed greatly from how the game is actually played.

Fuck MMP.

If you haven't tried CC:E, try that. It's actually FUN.

There are way too many differences between the two to enumerate here, and it would be usless to someone who hasn't played either game anyway.

SL's only real advantages are that it's cheap, and much easier to learn. The whole reason ASL was designed was to clean up the mess SL had become after the expasions. Even so, there's a random scenario generator in the SL rules, and you should be able to get many hours of fun out of the game.

ASL is expensive, hard to learn, and if you want to get a specific module or expansion, there's a whole labrynth of prerequisites you have to navigate and aquire to be able to play it. Be prepared to devote a lot of time not only to learning the rules, but also being able to play even remotely competently. On the other hand, ASL is probably the most flavorful, cinematic WWII game ever.

I would say go with ASL, but they're both fine games.

Billy Motion and I got really into ASL last year thanks to those Starter Kits. But like GPF says, "starter kit" is kind of a boldfaced lie. The game is still hard as balls to learn, and even after 5-6 games you're still referencing the rulebook practically every action. I'm still completely in the dark about the procedures for artillery fire and armor rules. The game is incredibly complex, but it is rewarding because there isn't another WWII game that captures such a granular level of detail. When it's working and flowing smoothly, it's incredible. It's a brilliant design, but I'm not sure it's a very playable one. If you've been at it for 20 years, it's one thing. Otherwise, it's kind of a chore.

Honestly though, I'd much rather play CONFLICT OF HEROES. It's more playable, exciting, and immediate. I'm not really sure that the level of detail that ASL provides is worth the work in the long run unless you're just really into WWII. I'm into WWII on a CALL OF DUTY level. Meaning, I don't care about which tanks had Porsche turrets and which had the Henckel ones, I just care that the tanks are there. In fact, I can't even believe I know that there's a difference between the two kinds of tanks.

I'd actually advise you to steer away from SQUAD LEADER though. I think it's more complex than the ASL starter kits, but if I recall correctly it had kind of a neat RPG-ish element that none of these games have.

CC:E was also brought up, that's worth pursuing if you haven't already.

And UP FRONT is better than any game discussed so far in this thread. But it's sort of an avant garde take on the subject matter.

And UP FRONT is better than any game discussed so far in this thread. But it's sort of an avant garde take on the subject matter.

Also, the guy who designed ASL has said he considers it the ultimate wargame. Now, if only you could get a copy for less than a gajillion dollars.

I got Squad Leader as a Christmas present back when I was a teenager. After spending a couple of weeks worth of my free time reading the rules, I was able to play through part of one scenario with a friend while frequently looking up rules. After three games, I put it away and haven't opened the box in decades. But I'm thinking about tackling it again this year when I've got some free time. It has to be easier to learn than Magic Realm, which proved to be more effective than Nyquil at putting me to sleep.

I love ASL. No other game gives so much back in the level of detail, variety and fun if you're looking for a WW2 tactical game fix. It demands a lot to learn but it returns that effort in spades. Now saying that, I think the absolute best way to learn ASL is to find a group/club and get someone there to teach you. Failing that the starter kits are the way to go. There's a much larger player community for ASL than SL and ASL still has new materiel being printed. If you should decide that ASL isn't for you, you can always sell your gear and get back most of the money you invested.

-Will

Thank you all for the replies! I was very interested in CC:E but the lack of vehicles bothers me - I wanna tanks! Why can't they somehow incorporate them into the system? I would buy it without thinking twice. CoH just didn't grabbed me from the descriptions. And I know that it sounds weird but I don't like the counters in CoH - they are too big and colourful for my tastes, I kinda like the simple artwork of ASL or CC. I guess I will try the SK1 and see how it works. Or just fuck it and buy ASL, I can always sell it later as you mentioned.

Michael Barnes wrote:

In fact, I can't even believe I know that there's a difference between the two kinds of tanks.

I find myself thinking this sort of thing about so much in my life...

Regarding CC:E - the game looks great but there is other thing than the lack of vehicles that bothers me - the cards. How many times during the game does it happen that you are stuck with shitty cards with absolutely no chance to do something reasonable? I would have bought the game long time ago but I don't trust the card mechanic...

How many times during the game does it happen that you are stuck with shitty cards with absolutely no chance to do something reasonable?

Too many to count. If you're prone to frustration over things like this, you'll want stay far away from the CC series. I like the game, but at that level of abstraction, and at a 2-hour play time, the "hey, in real life you don't have control" refrain doesn't really work for me.

A good way to get the feel for SL and ASL without spending much money is to try Valor & Victory. It's a print n' play game that takes those games and strips them down to their basic skeletal structures. Just print enough counters to play a scenario or two, and see what you think.

Thanks for the tip, I will check it out. And I guess I will stay away from CC:E as I wanna good tactical combat game not a watered down card driven chaos. But damn, does that game look good!

sydo wrote:

Thanks for the tip, I will check it out. And I guess I will stay away from CC:E as I wanna good tactical combat game not a watered down card driven chaos. But damn, does that game look good!

If that's the case you might want to check out Chad Jensen's new game Fighting Formations. It looks like it has tanks and WW2 tactical combat without the chard chaos of the Combat Commander series. It just went up for pre-order on the GMT site not too long ago.


www.gmtgames.com/p-279-fighting-formatio...fantry-division.aspx


-Will

If you want to get into ASL but don't want to commit too much money into it, I'd recommend after all, when the Starter Kits apparently suck.

Other than that I can't really recommend anything. CONFLICT OF HEROES is nice, but rather simple. CC:E is too random for my tastes. I hadn't heard the best things about PANZER GRENADIER either. LOCK'N'LOAD and ATS might be options, but I have not played these.

Bulwyf wrote:

If that's the case you might want to check out Chad Jensen's new game Fighting Formations. It looks like it has tanks and WW2 tactical combat without the chard chaos of the Combat Commander series. It just went up for pre-order on the GMT site not too long ago.


www.gmtgames.com/p-279-fighting-formatio...fantry-division.aspx


-Will

Hmm, war game designers seem to really run out of applicable names for their games. First CONFLICT HEROES and now this GROSSDEUTSCHLAND INFANTRY DIVISION. I will stay clear of this system until a different unit is portrayed. The US 101st airborne should have been a natural choice.