I've never played a worker placement game.

well spoken Kingput. It clarifies why some drafting games feel great and the others are so ho hum. No if we could add a chance for an electric shock on each draft there would be a *real* worker placement game. (highlighting rule #3 greed vs fear)

Steve"Shock the Monkey"Avery

ubarose wrote:

In fact I think all worker placement games fail at point 5. The "draft" is the entire game. It's like spending all of recess choosing up sides, then the bell rings and you have to go in before anyone even gets to kick the ball.

A very good point when you break it down like that. The first Euro that came to my mind which could pass condition #5 was Wallace's "Empires of the Ancient World'. In that game the players drafted military units from a common pool into their respective armies. Later in the game when 2 players fight, they use those units to make custom decks and fight a battle. Not quite a worker placement game but if we're agreeing that drafting is the same thing I guess it would qualify.

Are there other euros out there that might satisfy #5?

-Will

Bulwyf wrote:

Are there other euros out there that might satisfy #5?

In SETTLERS OF CATAN, players draft starting positions at the outset of the game.
In Knizia's CLASH OF THE GLADIATORS, players draft gladiators before the dice start rolling.

Neither game is considered a drafting game or a worker placement game, because they both have other fun things that happen after the initial drafting phase.

Bulwyf wrote:A very good point when you break it down like that. The first Euro that came to my mind which could pass condition #5 was Wallace's "Empires of the Ancient World'. In that game the players drafted military units from a common pool into their respective armies. Later in the game when 2 players fight, they use those units to make custom decks and fight a battle. Not quite a worker placement game but if we're agreeing that drafting is the same thing I guess it would qualify.
Are there other euros out there that might satisfy #5?
-Will

Interesting you brought up Empires of the Ancient World. It's a game that I own and actually like. I think this game had a lot of potential. I love the idea of drafting your leaders and army and then using them in a civilization / war game. Unfortunately, most people I know dislike the game for other reasons (randomness, poor production, unbalanced starting location, down time, game length etc.). Maybe Wallace or somebody else will try to mix a draft and wargame together in the future.

ubarose wrote:

Maybe that's why I don't mind Stone Age so much. It does better at points 1,3,4 and 6 than other worker placement games that I have played. It utterly fails at 5.
In fact I think all worker placement games fail at point 5. The "draft" is the entire game. It's like spending all of recess choosing up sides, then the bell rings and you have to go in before anyone even gets to kick the ball.

Stone Age actually has one of the more fun working placement - drafting mechanism. "Me send out 4 cavemen get stone". "Me send out 2 cavemen or better yet 1 caveman and 1 cavebabe in the hut to make a cave love child". The real fun part of the game is watching your friend send 3 cavemen out to get gold only to roll all 1 and 2 get nothing. However, after that fun what the hell are are you doing with the resources. Something cool like killing dinos, stealing other players cavechicks or even using the resources so Fred and Barney can go bowling. No, you're using them for stinking vps like most Euros. That's why the game fall flat for me in the end. Like you said it's just like the recess bell going off as soon as the fun just started.

TI3 strategy cards are action drafting.

What separates a good draft mechanism vs. a poor draft mechanism?

1. There should be a real significant spread in value of what you are drafting. The reasons people actually have NBA and NFL draft parties are because they are excited about picking up the next Shaq, Kobi or Lebron. If all the players were about the same nobody would care. That's what makes Ticket to Ride boring. Somebody takes the red card I wanted. No big deal I'll take the white card.
2. What you're drafting has to be exciting. Do you think anyone would sit around and watch somebody draft wood vs. stone or a blue card vs. a red card.
3. There has to be fear and greed in every draft. By that I mean you have to balance out drafting what you lust after vs. what you really need.
4. You have to be able to screw somebody. There should also be the option of screwing somebody vs. taking what you might need for yourself. Drafting a plow in Agricola is pretty stupid and boring but at least you can screw somebody by stealling the plow before they draft the plow.
5. The draft should be used to support a fun, exciting or interesting game. For many of the Eurogames if you look beyond the drafting mechanism their isn't much of a game going on.
6. A draft should never be used to build up some kind of economic engine.
7. A draft should support player interaction

I agree with 1, 3, 4 and 7 but the rest are just opinions: like Agricola is fun, Zombies isn't.

KingPut wrote:

Interesting you brought up Empires of the Ancient World. It's a game that I own and actually like. I think this game had a lot of potential. I love the idea of drafting your leaders and army and then using them in a civilization / war game. Unfortunately, most people I know dislike the game for other reasons (randomness, poor production, unbalanced starting location, down time, game length etc.).

I agree about the potential. EotAW is a lot of fun but it's just missing something. I get the feeling that it was published 3/4 of the way through development before Martin & Co. had a chance to really polish it. Unfortunately I'm no where near smart enough to pretend I have the game designer and/or game developer chops to fix it. Everytime I look at it on the shelf I wish Martin would revisit EotAW or at least try the mechanic out in another title.

Maybe Wallace or somebody else will try to mix a draft and wargame together in the future.

Here's hoping. Wallace in my book is one of those designers you have to keep an eye on. Every once and a while he cranks out a real winner.

-Will