Videogames this holiday season

Right. That's what I was saying in the post.

Yeah, I did misread it. Sorry about that.

I guess what's frustrating is that I'm not against the wii controls; they could be compelling (Wii sports is fun, for example, and deserves the accolades it gets). I've heard Boom Blox is super compelling in this sense which is why I really want to play it.

But for whatever reason it always just degenerates into an alternative for a button press. Shake the controller to have your guy jump. Why not just press A? There's no compelling difference, they're both just as divorced from the actual movement. Posters always dress me down as being against "fun" and the wii being a magical fun machine. But what is fun about shaking something instead of pressing A when both movements are pretty much exactly equivalent.

Going back to an earlier point, I think Little Big Planet is going to surprise a lot of people and is far closer to what a lot of the wii owners want in terms of family gaming than the latest carnival games schlockfest. This coming from someone who doesn't own a PS3.

...But I've moved far from my original point. What are people looking at this holidays, including family gamers?

Reviews are in on Dead Space and are good but mixed. I think I'm going to wait for a demo and think about it from there.

LITTLE BIG PLANET is amazing. It's absolutely brilliant, and I think it will be the PS3 "killer app". It combines a social networking/user created content element with classic (read: simple and accessible) gameplay elements with an approachable and modern style that will appeal to an awful broad demographic. The game is pure fun, and it has a certain joy of discovery in it that has been missing from most current games (barring MARIO GALAXY). It could be huge. I hope it's huge, because it shows how creativity, heart, and simplicity are bigger assets to video gaming than yet another power armor commando game.

As for the Wii, I love it. I'd rather have one TWILIGHT PRINCESS or MARIO GALAXY over 10 of the current 360 or PS3 games- they have a timeless quality and I know I'll want to play them again rather than just finishing them and leaving them to gather dust. The Nintendo-developed games on VC are testament to that- titles like LINK TO THE PAST and SUPER METROID are still better and more immersive designs than most games on the market today even if they don't have cinematic gameplay. I really like that I can play those games again on Wii- it's better than an emulator.

As for the controls that Gary is talking about here, something that I think you're missing is that moving a control around is simpler to most people than pushing a button. Controllers have been terribly off-putting to a lot of people over the past few generations of video game consoles- especially people outside of the 18-25 demographic. Atari 2600 had a stick and a button, meaning that the games were simple and anybody could pick it up and figure it out. Stuff like PAC MAN didn't even have a button and it was a phenomenon. Now, controllers like the 360 one have 10-15 buttons and somebody that's not a "gamer" sees that as something difficult and arcane. The Wii control scheme still has a few buttons, but people are drawn to the fact that they can just move the controller around to do stuff onscreen. Is it any different than pressing a button? Not really- but it's made more approachable. That's why WII SPORTS is so popular- _anyone_ can get into it without looking at a manual, reading any text, or having to remember which button does what.

I think it's funny that "hardcore" gamers lambast the Wii so much, that Nintendo has "abandoned" them...if I were CEO of Nintendo and had a choice between selling 35,000 copies of METROID PRIME 3 or 1 million copies of WII SPORTS 2, guess which one I'm going to be focusing attention toward?

I think we'll see the balance redressed in the next year...I do think Nintendo wants to retain its devoted fans while really kind of nurturing this new market that they've pretty much single-handedly created. They've gotten the Wii in the hands of people who have _never_ played a video game before and have never had video games marketed to them before, and that's an amazing feat.

Frankly, I'm totally satisfied with Wii as a lifelong videogamer because of Virtual Console alone.

BTW- WORLD OF GOO rocks.

The Nintendo-developed games on VC are testament to that- titles like LINK TO THE PAST and SUPER METROID are still better and more immersive designs than most games on the market today even if they don't have cinematic gameplay. I really like that I can play those games again on Wii- it's better than an emulator.

I was a SNES and N64 fan, so that put me in the nintendo camp. Anyway, to further drive home the above point, I like the older games because you actually play them. Sure you might have 5 minute tops intro on some, but for the most part it's game time, baby. A lot of the current (a few years ago) games my friends were playing, as my interest trailed off, were 40 hours mixed with fetching or watching cgi cut scenes. I'll pass.

And I wouldn't sweat the nintendo fans being disappointed due to any 'good' new games (again, I have no idea) coming out. They can:

1) re-play some of their current games, thus extending the value
2) get a kick-@$$ vc title or four
3) buy some boardgames

All of the above are winning options.

I actually am looking for some family Wii games for the holiday, but haven't settled on anything yet. I'm looking at some of the open ended sim type games to play with my Spawn - something so cute it would make you puke. Maybe that Sim Kingdom thing.

Animal Crossing is coming for Wii in November or something.

Also, Boom Blox gets my vote for being an awesome game.

Don't forget DOKAPON KINGDOM, which is pretty much a board game.

I like the older games because you actually play them. Sure you might have 5 minute tops intro on some, but for the most part it's game time, baby. A lot of the current (a few years ago) games my friends were playing, as my interest trailed off, were 40 hours mixed with fetching or watching cgi cut scenes. I'll pass.

I think a lot games today are too tied up with trying to be cinematic- they have WAY too much story. Which could be fine, if the story is extremely good, but most of the time even the games that have really "awesome" stories are so horribly cliched, repetitive, and written by folks who must have failed to get a script picked up in Hollywood or something.

OKAMI is the sore thumb reference for me on that account...sure, the game looks awesome and has an amazing visual style, but 90% of the game you're watching pointless story text (that you can't skip) and being told about what is going on the game. But not playing it. Compare that to a game like SYMPHONY OF THE NIGHT...it has a tiny amount of story ("Mankind ill needs a savior like you!", one of my favorite lines in any video game) and the rest of the story is supplied by- surprise! Actually playing the game. You do a lot more than just moving from cutscene to cutscene.

It may be that HALFLIFE is to blame- but in that game, the narrative elements were so seamlessly incorporated into actual gameplay it never felt like you were being told the story- you were acting out the story. That's a big difference.

With some of these NES/SNES/Genesis titles hitting 20 years old, it's become pretty clear to me what has become timeless and what hasn't- and frankly, if you look at an Xbox game from five years ago it probably hasn't held up near as well as OCARINA OF TIME...or SUPER MARIO BROTHERS 3 for that matter.

MEGAMAN 9 introduces another piece in all this...games used to be difficult. To think that a game where you have two buttons and can't even shoot up is infinitely harder than some new game where you've got 10 buttons, 100 different actions, total freedom of movement, and an almost limitless gameworld is kind of ludicrous. But I find trying over and over again to get through one stage of MEGAMAN 9 (it's DAMN hard) so much more rewarding than racing through GTA or trudging through boring crap like OKAMI.

I think right now games are in that stage where people assume new is good and old is bad. Music was in that for about 30 years, but now thanks to greater accessibility and wider cultural appropriation you hear kids listening to older music and it's not so much about "what's new" all of the time. Movies, the same thing. It does seem that there has been- in just the last two years or so- more of an appreciation for older games and a desire to return to the kinds of qualities that made great games great. I think that's a good thing.

Moving further from the original topic...

Barnes, Nintendo agrees with your last post. That's why it is playing it totally safe with most of its core franchises and continuing the same gameplay we've been seeing for a long time. They're there, to supply all your classic gaming needs. For me personally, once in awhile it's a hit (new super mario brothers) but frequently it just results in boring, hack, more of the same games with no spark. I won't be buying another Zelda game, or a new Mario Kart game, or a new Smash Brothers game, until I see something done to make them more than buying the previous game was for gamecube, or N64, or SNES. I own those games. They *were* timeless games, agreed.

Additionally, no need to worry about audience either--the rest of the buying public agrees with you, not me, but thankfully we will both be happy and I will continue to receive the kind of games I like on other platforms. That's why I don't get off on going on and on about how the wii sucks or anything like that. It is a different markets thing and I completely respect that. Only reason I brought it up in this thread is because I feel that the wii has a particularly weak lineup this year, even for the crowd that loves and enjoys the console. Maybe the Wii will start getting quality core gamer stuff, as others and you have said. I don't know. I just heard that last year as well is my only point.

Continuing, I have to call you on this and it's not just you. Twilight Princess will not go down in history as a timeless classic, that is a load of horse shit. Galaxy may, it is a good game with many unique qualities. But TP is a hack retread that kludges wii functions only superficially onto almost exactly replicated Ocarina/Wind Waker gameplay.

Why do people point out Twilight Princess as a classic game? Twilight Princess is a the definition of more of the same shit, plain and simple, but taken to the extreme. I quit playing about 3/4 of the way through. I couldn't do it anymore. My wife, as casual as a gamer as exists and a Zelda fan, got extremely bored watching and was like "why is this exactly the same as the other games?" A complete retread of everything Ocarina of Time did right with low quality new content of wolf mode and the dark world (but then Link to the Past did that one). Ocarina of time was a huge innovation (3d Zelda). Even its sequel, Mask, was a very innovative type of game (that I didn't enjoy too much, but was very ambitious). Wind Waker had an innovative art style, at least, despite problems.

I also think you're underplaying the "classic" qualities of newer games. Pointing to Xbox games is not the correct comparison, it was far from a market leader--point to PS2 games, the market dominator. Games like ICO or Shadow of the Colossus, or Prince of Persia Sands of Time, RE4 for the Cube, those were completely classic games, to name a couple. I could point out a number of other classic games from the last gen as well. Current gen is also going to have its classic games, but I don't have the historical perspective to tell you which ones they are right now.

Finally, this 'you play them' point is mostly nonsense, IMHO. This got introduced because of the regrettable influx of completely self indulgent crap, esp. JRPGs, from Japan with excruciating cinematics--Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy but even some US games like GTA. I don't play or enjoy most of that shit either, and it's not a part of GTA that I love. But I think to judge modern games by thinking about shitty JRPGs, label it all interactive movies, is a mistake. In fact, most games have had a huge move toward in game rendered stories in the past 5 years and to include them without relinquishing control from the player. IMHO we're moving toward far less of that after the Bad Times with the introduction of CD technology.

I like the sports games that I have on my PS3, although I will admit that I get a little bit of button confusion, so I switch them to the older button mode. Apparently, I should try to get used to the newer controls though as they give me greater control over things. GTAIV was pretty fun for a while and then at some point it got tedious as I was trying to finish the game. The last mission took me quite a few tries to get it done and I wish there were more save points in it because it got frustrating getting sent all the way back to the beginning of it. I played the Star Wars Lego game on my PS2 and that was pretty fun, so I picked up the double set for my PS3 but have not played it yet. I am tempted to pick up the Indiana Jones game at some point. Call of Duty IV was fun but it felt too scripted at points. I'd rather have a game with more flexibility.

My favorite style of game is the military sims though but I like them hovering somewhere between arcade and realism. In many cases, they make the games too realistic and it is pain in the ass to fly my F-16 or whatever. if you bump down the realism levels it is too easy. But it seems that the military sim is a dying breed being replaced by the myriad of FPS out there. I want to be a pilot not infantry...dammit!

Does anybody here still play PC games?
Instead of getting a Xbox 360 I sometimes consider getting a new PC so i can play Starcraft 2 and those warhammer 40k games.
I wouldn't mind trying gears of war or that other shooting game everyone was raving about a while ago though, which brings me back to getting a 360.
But then I look at my wii gathering dust and think maybe i should get nothing. Even the DS has hit the shelf now that I have started riding to work.

Most sports games are putting in the simpler control options these days. NHL 09 (one of the best sports games ever) has a "NHL 94" control scheme that is exactly the same as that game. Two buttons I believe.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

Does anybody here still play PC games?
Instead of getting a Xbox 360 I sometimes consider getting a new PC so i can play Starcraft 2 and those warhammer 40k games.
I wouldn't mind trying gears of war or that other shooting game everyone was raving about a while ago though, which brings me back to getting a 360.
But then I look at my wii gathering dust and think maybe i should get nothing. Even the DS has hit the shelf now that I have started riding to work.

In the areas it is best in (FPS, RTS, Strategy games) the PC is still a good choice. I got tired of the treadmill of new components.

The PC also has had a huge resurgence in more casual games. Peggle, which someone mentioned, is a perfect example of this.

For me personally, once in awhile it's a hit (new super mario brothers) but frequently it just results in boring, hack, more of the same games with no spark.

Well, that is true to a degree- there really isn't that much difference between TWILIGHT PRINCESS and OCARINA OF TIME aside from a more modern presentation. My argument there would be that the spark is still there, because the new franchise games are still worth playing and reward not only veteran players but also newcomers.

I think we're already well into a phase where independent, DIY developers are acing the majors in terms of innovation, creativity, and progress. It's really kind of like punk rock, these little games like WORLD OF GOO, BRAID, ALIEN HOMINID, and even LITTLE BIG PLANET are coming from developers and designers outside the usual Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, EA, et al. environment. Programming tools are more accessible than ever before, and I think it's another punk rock analouge that what we're seeing is a turning away from the bloat and excess of the big-league product and a return to a more back-to-basics style with traditional elements foregrounded.

Only reason I brought it up in this thread is because I feel that the wii has a particularly weak lineup this year, even for the crowd that loves and enjoys the console.

Definitely ties back into your original post, and I agree. I'm not terribly excited about any upcoming holiday games because I only have Wii- and PUNCH-OUT, THE CONDUIT, MADWORLD and all that are still pretty far off.

Continuing, I have to call you on this and it's not just you. Twilight Princess will not go down in history as a timeless classic, that is a load of horse shit.

I saw a figure when Wii released that TP matched console sales almost 1:1. If you're a kid that got that and it's your first Zelda game, you better bet it'll be a timeless classic. As part of the series, I think it definitely upholds the values and qualities of the past games and I think it's got lasting power, even if it isn't terribly innovative. FYI- I think the Wii controls were a mistake.

I also think you're underplaying the "classic" qualities of newer games.

There's definitely classic qualities to newer games, SANDS OF TIME sticks out in particular as a masterpiece that will be regarded highly 20 years from now. But there's a lot in it that really echoes the classic gameplay of the original. What does it really add beyond a more modern presentation and 3D, though?

RE4 is a great game, no argument there. It's cinematic but also totally immersive and involving.

Finally, this 'you play them' point is mostly nonsense, IMHO. This got introduced because of the regrettable influx of completely self indulgent crap, esp. JRPGs, from Japan with excruciating cinematics--Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy but even some US games like GTA.

Agreed- we could probably just go ahead and pin the blame on FF7, probably THE most overrated video game ever published. I remember when FF8 came out, the gameplay had vanished to the point where I felt like I was just watching an anime program.

When I was playing MGS, I thought it was incredible...but when I went back to it a couple of years later, I thought it was totally boring- really just a series of vignettes with a couple of action set pieces to move the story along, and you can't move the story along until you pass them. The reward is just getting to finish the game, not feeling like you've mastered anything or increased your skill.

I would still argue though that a lot of current games are just over-scripted. Which I think is kind of ironic because I'd never say that about SYMPHONY OF NIGHT, MEGA MAN 2, or any other totally linear platform game.

DEAD SPACE does look pretty neat, BTW- apparently Dario Argento does one of the voices or something, which I think is awesome.

Michael Barnes wrote:

I saw a figure when Wii released that TP matched console sales almost 1:1. If you're a kid that got that and it's your first Zelda game, you better bet it'll be a timeless classic.

QFT

Twilight Princes is my first Zelda game and even though I never completed it I think it was fantastic. I would rate it higher than Mario Galaxy, which is also my first mario game (apart from the original and original original.)