irony in popular culture

I just came across this piece:

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/17...-live-without-irony/

This line jumped out at me: "What would it take to overcome the cultural pull of irony? Moving away from the ironic involves saying what you mean, meaning what you say and considering seriousness and forthrightness as expressive possibilities, despite the inherent risks."

The problem with this suggestion is that it could turn into boring seriousness.

Which made me think of how F:AT is different. Though you could say that there's a taste for irony in the kind of jokes that fly around here (to wit: secret satan, Shellie's holiday card of her burning house [!]), but there's an edginess and sincerity too.

I think I agree with the author's implicit suggestion that it's common for people to find it hard to strike a balance between being playful and being opinionated. More reason people should play Ameritrash.

I've found that taking things literally is the new irony.

"Are you heading for the canteen?"
"Err... no."
"Too bad - was looking forward to having lunch with you."

The definition of "irony" is continuing to expand all the time. At some point I think anything with a contradiction in concept, terms or meaning will come to be defined as irony. That could eventually come to mean all of comedy short of rubber chickens and seltzer bottles.

S.

Hatchling wrote: This line jumped out at me: "What would it take to overcome the cultural pull of irony? Moving away from the ironic involves saying what you mean, meaning what you say and considering seriousness and forthrightness as expressive possibilities, despite the inherent risks."

The real problem is not "irony". It's that what is referred to as "irony" by the author is just an outgrowth of the resurgence of Nihilism in our society. There are no absolutes. Nothing can be known for certain. If truth cannot be known than everything is untruth.

It's a bleak and desolate world view. It leads to a depressing outlook and emotional isolation.

I, however, reject Nihilism.

That is why I never have a problem saying I LOVE board games. No self-deprecation or apologies. Board games are fun as hell and they bring a great deal of joy to my life. I talk about them with enthusiasm and play them with gusto.

I also think the phenomenon the author is describing is one particular to certain areas such as higher education and larger metropoli. If he ever ventured out into "fly over" country, he'd see that most people do not subscribe to this philosophy.

repoman wrote: I also think the phenomenon the author is describing is one particular to certain areas such as higher education and larger metropoli. If he ever ventured out into "fly over" country, he'd see that most people do not subscribe to this philosophy.

Don't be so quick to romanticize fly-over country. While you're right that the whole "irony as reality" philosophy is a hallmark of the university and well-to-do urban environment, the internet has wormed its way into all corners of this country and a certain form of nihilism fucking abounds among those allegedly "salt of the earth Americans." Same tribalism, different form, IMO. *shrug*

The author is spot-on, however, that this sort of "expressional irony" (to fabricate a term) is "a first world problem." It's about money, not some sort of philosophy. It's driven by the *ability* to spend frivolously.

That was a pretty good read. I don't know if a life free of irony is the answer though. When Thomas Kincaid died a while back I did a bunch of research (read: Wikipedia) on art vs kitsch. One of the definitions of kitch given is that it is free of all ambiguity: when you experience kitsch you know exactly how you are supposed to feel. No irony is possible. With Kindcaid specifically you are supposedly to look at his homey, warm paintings of idealized American small town life, and feel exactly and only comfortable nostalgia. And that why, despite his technical skill, it's not art.

Milan Kundera goes so far as to say that the elimination of irony is the beginning of totalitarianism. That seems a little strong to me, but it ties into the notion of one, and only one, interpretation. All great art is ambiguous to some degree, but totalitarianism cannot tolerate interpretations other than the official one.

That being said, having nothing but irony is a really empty approach. I appreciated the author's comment about buying white elephant gifts: when you buy only stupid crap that everyone will laugh at, it's a cop out that saves you from the work of actually knowing someone and their tastes. Which feeds into our already narcissistic culture. Heaven forbid you take a chance and be wrong, and then have to feel embarrassment or shame or any other negative emotion.

I appreciate Sag's comment about the definition of irony expanding ever outward, but I think the horse has left the barn on that one. I heard that a major dictionary now has a definition of "literally" that includes its popular usage as a synonym for "figuratively."

I haven't read the article referred to yet but I especially like the points made by dysjunct.

I actually don't think Milan Kundera goes so far though about the elimination of irony being the beginning of totalitarianism - there is no lack of concrete examples where this was the case: people going to prison because of a joke, or being persecuted for art or music happenings that were not per se political but nevertheless were threatening to the regime because they represented free thought.

As you say, totalitarianism cannot tolerate interpretations other than the official one and this was as true of the communist satellite countries as it was of Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany.

Thanks guys. Great to find this discussion on a boardgaming site

I just saw this pinepoint.nfb.ca/#/pinepoint

That could have been full of irony. Probably, if the town still existed, there would have been lots of irony.

I was actually going to post this here myself- I saw the link over on a movie site, read it, and was pretty impressed. I think it's a pretty devastating attack on hipsterism and the culture of irony and sarcasm. I fully support the war on all of the above.

Back in the late 1990s, my girlfriend at the time took a job working at a goth/punk/rockabilly clothing shop in a "hip" area of Atlanta. These were the kind of people that used to actively decry anything to do with heavy metal. Within the span of about six months of when she started working there, all of the people there and that shopped there started wearing Iron Maiden shirts. And it was this kind of ironic, sarcastic thing. It miffed me, because I have been listening to Iron Maiden since I was like eight years old- and without irony, sarcasm, or any suggestion that it was "cool". Following that, the hip crowd started listening to 80s hair bands...all stuff they would have made fun of just a year earlier. But it had become a "thing" to be into metal, because that whole alternative scene suddenly got into this ironic phase where being "white trash" was cool. That was really when I first started seeing the roots of the whole hipster thing...and it has lead, twelve years or so on, to the guys with the beards rocking the public health specs, wearing a Sword T-shirt.

I never really considered all of this- along with grown men wearing "ironic" boy band shirts, drinking PBR, wearing intentionally ugly clothes,watching Troll 2 or The Room etc.- to be part of a culture that is actively promoting sarcasm and dishonesty. But I think the writer here completely nailed that as the root causes of all of this bullshit, including the fact that this kind of cultural phenomenon is a product of comfort and middle-class wealth.

I used to always say that I missed when advertisements simply said "this is the product, here it is, and this is why you should buy it". Now, it's all of this sarcasm, irony, and artificial reality. Again, all part and parcel of this disgusting culture of luxury and subterfuge.

It comes back around to the fact that post-GenXers are increasingly incapable of discerning lasting value over transient appeasement. There's a zeitgeist that nothing lasts, there is no actual value to anything other than a temporary assigment, and there is no impetus for long-term attachement to ANYTHING. Particularly, as has been stated in the article and here, when whatever is "next" makes the last thing laughable in the popular media.

Of course the interent has tons to do with this, the availability of information and access to so much of it all at once. I doubt there would be kids in flyover country wearing trucker hats and moustaches without the interent...unless they were serious about it.

The whole seriousness issue is another thing. I despise silliness outside of childlike silliness. I'm really mostly a serious person, I take things seriously and don't get into this whole modern concept of sarcastic comedy. Not that I don't like laughing, jokes, or things that are honestly funny (and not just insulting or vulgar)...but when all you are is a walking joke, like the guy wearing a Britney Spears shirt at the Troll 2 screening...what are you, really?

It's all coming back around to dishonesty and a failure for people to be genuine. As much as I hate "geek" culture of all stripes, one thing I'll give them all credit for is that they like what they like without shame, reservation, sarcasm, or irony. I appreciate that, and it's probably why I still don't mind going to conventions or being around nerds.

But then there's that whole fake nerd girl thing too.

Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

Although I sometimes appreciate irony, I despise hipsters for being fake nerds for the sake of irony. They are actually self-loathing, pretentious assholes who don't have the common decency to kill themselves. Hmm, looking at that NYT article, I see that writer makes a similar point with less harsh terminology. And she has some great insights, like irony as form of risk-aversion.

I'm reasonably happy with my life. After years of struggle, I now have both a job and a personal relationship where I can say what I mean. I like what I like because I like it, and I have my own personal style of talking, dressing, and moving that is just me. If anybody doesn't like it, they can fuck off.

Michael Barnes wrote: It's all coming back around to dishonesty and a failure for people to be genuine.

It's the increasing trend of style over substance where it's more cool to be clever than real. It's easier than figuring out who you really are and what exactly you stand for and today's culture is all about easy.

True, and I would also argue that some of that feeds into the concept of "geek culture" as well. It's much easier to identify yourself by the media that you consume that by who you are as a person. You can also use that media to disguise who you really are, or to provide an intermediary that keeps the real "you" at a distance from others.

Michael Barnes wrote: But then there's that whole fake nerd girl thing too.

Soooo true, I hate fake nerd girls too. That droopy B-cup ain't foolin' anyone sister.

Michael Barnes wrote: It's all coming back around to dishonesty and a failure for people to be genuine. As much as I hate "geek" culture of all stripes, one thing I'll give them all credit for is that they like what they like without shame, reservation, sarcasm, or irony. I appreciate that, and it's probably why I still don't mind going to conventions or being around nerds.

Totally. I think the best and worst things about the stereotypical geek is his or her ability to get consumed with something trivial, like a game. Games are frivolous in the big picture, and inflating and exaggerating their importance in life can be a sign of gross immaturity. But on the other hand, isn't it the most amazing thing when someone can have a free enough spirit to let the imagination run wild and break up the routine with some "make-believe", theatre or even, in a sense, art? Sometimes people get into that space of imagination to avoid being an adult, and they can become losers like Eugene (though I love Eugene...speaking of whom, Simon, we need MOAR EUGENE PLEZ), or nerds prone to nerd-rage, who sulk in their basement because their RPG character got offed. But sometimes these people are like magic in a grey world. I love playing boardgames with people who really get into it, and into character. But I hate playing with people who don't know how to turn the game world off.

How do we have a healthy and mature fantasy life? That issue reminds me, in a way, of Don Quixote (my favourite fictional character) tilting at windmills, fighting anyone who would dare doubt that the barber's basin on his head is actually a sacred and magical helmet. DQ is a story about serious problems like loneliness, aging, poverty, marginalization, and how real problems can never defeat the sense of wonder and imagination that gives any of us a certain nobility in the face of all that shit. I don't think DQ would like hipsters at all.