CinemaDome: The Matrix vs Terminator 2

Great pairing here. I love the Wachowski for their style and try to see everything they do, but the Matrix rubbed me the wrong way and still does. Maybe it's the Jesus theme. Maybe it's different for me because I had read PK Dick and seen movies from Hong Kong before, so maybe a little like Mr. Barnes, this movie contained absolutely nothing I hadn't already seen or read. For me it's a perfect remix of the last 30 odd years into the Hollywood Formula.
T2 was, as others wrote, actually trying to take the Terminator to different, sometimes unexpected places. Like with the last choice, I have to go with the movie I saw less times but they meant more.

vote: T2

My gaming coworker offers up T2 as his choice, if it counts. "I pick T2 just because the last two Matrix movies sucked so bad."

I love Terminator but it never should have had any sequels.

I love The Matrix and it also should not have had any sequels.

But since this is one of those crappy sequels versus a movie that I love, there's no contest. The Matrix

Now if this had been Terminator versus The Matrix, I would have had to think about this a lot more.

Michael Barnes wrote: The battle at Zion was awesome, I loved how it was basically Space Invaders with aliens coming down, people shooting up.

So, it's Pixels, then?

Agree, though. Definitely The Matrix. Its impact on me was diluted somewhat by having waited several years later to see it, but while pretentious it's interesting and visually innovative. T2 never did anything for me. The first movie is excellent, but T2 already feels like the "franchise" is crumbling under the weight of its own retroactive mythology.

To this day I'm not really sure why I don't like The Matrix more. It's generally everything I advocate for in genre films, it's an utterly unabashed mash-up of ideas and genres and it had the courage to bring aggressive surrealism into a multi-million dollar action film. There are so many great ideas in it, even the little ones like having to find a ringing telephone to escape the simulation feels like something out of Gilliam or Jeunet.

But every time I watch it I find my eyes glazing over and I tune out. I have few theories about why:

1. The performances are really flat. It's one thing for Reeves to be lacking in affect, that's kind of his thing, but Fishburne, Moss and Pantoilano are actors who can breeze through mediocre dialog on their charisma but they all seem to be taking classes at the same Marionette School as Reeves. The result is that I always find myself looking forward to the scenes with Hugo Weaving. The way little bits of disgust and frustration begin to show as cracks in his mechanical facade, until he gives into genuine rage at the end of the movie. The result is that I end liking Agent Smith more than anyone else in the cast which I'm guessing wasn't the intended effect.

2. The action is really weightless. And not just because of the wire-fu effects. The Matrix was the beginning of a trend in American action movies where even when lots of guns went off or people got kicked in the face, it never felt like there were any consequences. The characters never seem to be in danger and violence never seems to have much effect on anything. Compare the tea house shoot out in Hardboiled to the Morpheus rescue sequence and I think you will get a better sense of what I'm trying (and probably failing) to say here.

3. The relationship between Trinity and Neo really bugs me and I will let this link speak for me, as to why.
That said these are mostly personal complaints because The Matrix is a clever and ambitious action film that at least tries, even when it doesn't succeed, to do a lot of smart innovative things.

And in a lot of ways Terminator 2 is the exact opposite of that. It's a classic example of a sequel that shouldn't have been made in the first place, the ambiguity at the end of The Terminator is one of its many strong points, and other than the liquid metal bits it never really innovates anything. It's mostly reprisals of great bits from The Terminator with bigger budgets.

It also asks us to accept a dozen really dumb ideas, the idea that a Terminator would actually make a good dad, that idea that T-101 now understands crying, Sarah Connor's rant about how scientists only know how to do is kill because they don't know what's like to have a life inside of them (I am pretty sure at least one scientist has given birth), the idea that Eddie Furlong is going to be humanity's greatest soldier, the idea that knee-capping people is an acceptable alternative to anything, all things the movie presents with aching seriousness.

And it was really where the writing on the wall starts to show up for Cameron. The Abyss is three or four really good movies that never quite coalesce into a single great movie. But Terminator 2 is just kind of a mess in its pacing and overall plotting. Symptoms that would get worse for Cameron as his career continued.
But...

I like Terminator 2 better. And a lot of it has to do with that sense of weightless that bothers me in The Matrix. The violence in Terminator 2 feels like it matters. Every time the T-1000 runs into a cop or a hapless security guard or whoever it's like a mini-horror film (seriously that bit with John's foster parents alone). And when the Terminators fight it feels dangerous, we see the toll it takes on both of them. And for the humans the action scenes always feel like the desperate improvisations of genuinely scared people.

It's not really a better movie but I like Terminator 2 more.

Vote: Terminator 2

That said I will probably complete invalidate my vote by saying I like The Matrix Reloaded better than Terminator 2 and The Matrix combined.

I was going to post something similar to John Myers, but not as well articulated. So, although I find both Matrix and T2 rather unwatchable now, my vote for T2.

I can't say I like Matrix Reloaded more than Matrix, I thought that the highway set up piece was great. I remember it way better than any particular scene from either T2 or the original Matrix, but wonder if it still holds up after Fury Road.

Matrix Reloaded is a total mess. Scenes that should be short go on forever, scenes that need to be longer are incredibly short and people talk in a language that was apparently built entirely out of monologues. But I love how it doubles down on the weirdness. Ghosts, vampires, the devil all exist and are artifacts of previous versions of The Matrix and The Devil runs an AI equivalent of Rick's Cafe American.

And the whole plot of the first movie is basically a lie! The Resistance is the engine that fuels control of the system! God is really a talky Colonel Sanders! Neo is Superman/Jesus! And the ending hugely implies that what we've been told is the "real world." Is just another layer of the Matrix.

That's the world I desperately wanted to spend more time in.

Grant Morrison has claimed that the design team on all three Matrix movies were handed copies of the Invisibles and told to use them as blue prints. I don't know if that's true or not but Reloaded definitely feels about as close to a live action adaptions as we'll ever see.

I don't think the Matrix Trilogy is as bad as people said, but Terminator 2. I'm so used to anime, asian movies, etc that the original the Matrix is just "good" for me.

This is a really unfair pairing. I don't see how T2 can possibly win and I'm surprised to see people picking it over Matrix. If Matrix was paired against the first Terminator, I'd like to think that would be a closer fight.

Someone who posts here regularly often says when choosing between a sequel or a new IP, they always go with the new IP. I can't think of a better time to invoke that than here. Matrix was incredible and still holds up well. Terminator 2 is REALLY Hard to sit through now. It's way too melodramatic.

Vote : Matrix

"Whoa.."

The trailers for T2 were like "cool!) but I remember seeing the matrix trailers bullet time and everyone in the Cinema was gobsmacked and just gawping "whoah"

I was no stranger to Anime, John Woo movies and wire-fu when The Matrix came out but it still amazed me. I loved T2 when it came out, understanding that it was essentially a remake of Terminator with a huge budget, and that was a good thing. I can watch The Matrix every year, I don't have any interest in watching T2 again.

Interesting comment about Agent Smith being the more sympathetic character given the theory that he is, in fact, "The One."

Vote: The Matrix, hopefully in time before Mr White short-cuts the deadline again.

Black Barney wrote: This is a really unfair pairing. I don't see how T2 can possibly win and I'm surprised to see people picking it over Matrix. If Matrix was paired against the first Terminator, I'd like to think that would be a closer fight.

So far this one is running pretty close. 12-9 the Matrix....and that's not including Robertb's T2 loving co-workers...

Hark! T2 launched the illustrious career of Robert Patrick.


Still...the Matrix could be real...
www.newyorker.com/books/joshua-rothman/w...-computer-simulation

JEM wrote: hopefully in time before Mr White short-cuts the deadline again.

Yeah, sorry about that. I tend to do my heavier posting earlier in the work day. The voting seemed to have died down and determined, so I closed it down and launched this one.

Mr. White wrote:

So far this one is running pretty close. 12-9 the Matrix....and that's not including Robertb's T2 loving co-workers...

My wife cancels out my coworker by picking The Matrix. "Hmm. The Matrix. But I like Terminator 2 a lot."

John Myers, that was an awesome take down of both movies. It's interesting that most people who voted for The Matrix in this thread have little to say about either movie.