? About Negative Review Ethics

Michael Barnes wrote: You know, that reminds me of a discussion I had with this guy once about some of the then-current punk bands in the mid to late 1990s. He liked all that stuff- Lagwagon, Millencolin, AFI, and so forth. He asked me why I was hating on all of that stuff and why I was so sharply critical of it and the scene around it. My response? "Because I love punk".

Some people don't get that when you are negative about a particular game, record, book, movie or whatever it has more to do with your love of the medium than it does your hate of the work. It's more about disappointment than a condemnation of someone else's effort.

(Out of Context & Off topic)
That would be a great discussion. Punk has always been one of those subjects that I love thinking/talking about. There is Punk the philosophy, music, subculture, etc.

I've always been of the belief that the Punk philosophy died as soon as it sparked. Punk was born through a refusal to obey the rules set out by others, entitlement/privilege, and provide a way to forge its own road. Once it caught on & became “cool”, require specific dress code (Thanks to a sex shop clothing line) & attitude adjustment, Punk philosophy was DOA.

Punk Music was played to the very few that were lucky enough to stumble into those middle of nowhere dives USA (Ok, CBGB did let a few jump up on stage in the beginning & eventually featured mainly ‘Hardcore’ from the 80’s on.) & Andy Cap Pubs with a ‘live band’ night in between dart league nights in some butt fuck no place Wank’in’shire. That was Punk. Richard Hell, New Y Dolls & Iggy gave The Clash, Ramones, Pistols, Siouxsie, Damned Dead K’s, a spring board with which to kickstart the Punk evolution. All of which are guilty of “selling-out”(Elektra Records was owned by Warner in 1970), something that runs contrary to the base principle of the Punk philosophy.

Everything that has come since was born & evolved from ‘Hardcore’. Then from here you have so many different genre’s that it’s hard to keep track without a family tree, post punk/ metal/ alt/ rockabilly/ emo/ etc etc etc.

It never ceases to depress me when I think ‘I wanna be your Dog’ & ‘Love comes in spurts’ lead us to slack jawed, retarded inbred’s like anything Green Day & No Doubt.

Punk is Dead.

(In context and on topic) If you have to ask a publisher if it's ok to write a bad review of a product they supplied...your opinion & integrity is null & void. You are now nothing more than a Sycophant and carpetbagger looking to score future 'hotness'. Your name and reputation is dead. Much like Punk.

I dunno, there's been a couple times in the late 90s that I was too drunk to fuck...

*snip*

(this is now a new thread)

LMAO, this is a funny thread:
www.boardgamegeek.com/video/18708/dungeo...mmand-sting-of-lolth

Squirrel: You dont have to own two factions to play. @ people can play with one faction pack, the cards can be seperated based on the gold or silver symbol in bottom left hand corner of the cards.

Me: Oh, cmon, Larry. That's BS. The rules for making warbands are 12 per side, 30 cards per side. Playing 6 on 6 with half a deck is clearly shown to be the "warmup/beginner" tutorial.

If you want to play the game, as designed, you have to buy 2.

Squirrel: I agree about being played as designed, was just pointing out it can be played with one faction box. Games are very limited unless each person has a faction that wants to play, but overall mechanics and gameplay feels the same just shortened.

Me: Wizards appears to disagree...


Squirrel: It's everything one player needs for a full army but it shows in the rules how it can be played with 2 for a skirmish

LMAO

Fallen wrote: (Out of Context & Off topic)
That would be a great discussion. Punk has always been one of those subjects that I love thinking/talking about. There is Punk the philosophy, music, subculture, etc.

I've always been of the belief that the Punk philosophy died as soon as it sparked. Punk was born through a refusal to obey the rules set out by others, entitlement/privilege, and provide a way to forge its own road. Once it caught on & became “cool”, require specific dress code (Thanks to a sex shop clothing line) & attitude adjustment, Punk philosophy was DOA.

Punk Music was played to the very few that were lucky enough to stumble into those middle of nowhere dives USA (Ok, CBGB did let a few jump up on stage in the beginning & eventually featured mainly ‘Hardcore’ from the 80’s on.) & Andy Cap Pubs with a ‘live band’ night in between dart league nights in some butt fuck no place Wank’in’shire. That was Punk. Richard Hell, New Y Dolls & Iggy gave The Clash, Ramones, Pistols, Siouxsie, Damned Dead K’s, a spring board with which to kickstart the Punk evolution. All of which are guilty of “selling-out”(Elektra Records was owned by Warner in 1970), something that runs contrary to the base principle of the Punk philosophy.

Everything that has come since was born & evolved from ‘Hardcore’. Then from here you have so many different genre’s that it’s hard to keep track without a family tree, post punk/ metal/ alt/ rockabilly/ emo/ etc etc etc.

It never ceases to depress me when I think ‘I wanna be your Dog’ & ‘Love comes in spurts’ lead us to slack jawed, retarded inbred’s like anything Green Day & No Doubt.

Punk is Dead.

Check out "Open Your Heart" by "The Men".

its pretty refreshing that heated exchanges can happen here but everyone just gets on with it and doesn't default to taking it personally or being all weird, not to mention the ban hammer isn't wielded. Just wanted to say that I appreciate that. I'd buy any of you guys a beer. Except Pete, I'd make him buy ME one. And Loter, he'd get a cocktail. Haha. True story, when I was in Madison on a work thing, I hung out with some guy from Nebraska, cool guy, bit of a free spirit, bit too fond of jumping in the car after drinking several large tequlias for my liking. Anyway, he was a mans man, and said that if I ordered a fancy cocktail in a bar, he'd think I was, and I quote him "a faggot" and that in most bars he knew, I'd get the shit kicked out of me. I mean, I'm a big guy, 6'2" and at that time a good looking 250 pounds, but over here I wouldn't expect to take any shit if I order a brightly coloured cocktail with a fucking umbrella in it. Was that guy just an outlier, was it his age or region, or is there really still that weird homophobia over there? See, it takes a real fucking man to order a strawberry daiquiri my friend!

On the other hand, in New York, in an underground red lit bar with a barman looking like Jeff bridges (still not sure it WASNT Jeff Bridges) I asked, casual as you like, theoretically speaking, how much would a pint of White Russian be. Without batting an eyelid, and completely in his Big Lebowski persona, he racked it up in his head and quote a price. There were three of us, we all ordered several pints of white russian, it was a great, great night, and no one looked like they wanted to beat us up. I suppose a white russian is not pink.

Gots to love the "caucasians". I mean, The Dude drinks them.

And you wouldn't make me do shit. I always buy for my mates.

ldsd, unfortunately homophobia is an issue, at least in the midwest. I wouldn't say you would normally get your ass kicked for ordering a daquiri, just snide remarks. The good news is, young people are generally much less homophobic, even in the midwest. As time passes, all the homophobic (and racist) assholes will be dead or marginalized.

Dair wrote: ldsd, unfortunately homophobia is an issue, at least in the midwest. I wouldn't say you would normally get your ass kicked for ordering a daquiri, just snide remarks. The good news is, young people are generally much less homophobic, even in the midwest. As time passes, all the homophobic (and racist) assholes will be dead or marginalized.

yeah but they'll also all be harping on about the good old days of Justin Bieber and I'm a braindead celebrity, get me the fuck out of here etc.
swings and roundabouts

Schweig! wrote: Check out "Open Your Heart" by "The Men".

I'll give it a listen tonight.

My thesis is that this kind of review, here by our very own Jesse Dean
boardgamegeek.com/thread/829911/getting-in-on-the-ground-floor

is the kind of review that's actually more damaging to the hobby. It's well written, contains plenty of smart buzzwords and is well structured and laid out. But read between the lines, clearly this game is pap, another "meh" dreck of a euro with "a twist" and a unique theme. This game does not need to exist, it's not even out yet, it's more fuel on the fire of "buy buy buy new new new" phenomenon, because he's just not bold enough to call a spade a spade, read those last few sentences, it's there if you dig enough, this game sucks, and is pointless, and he knows it, but hey, lets add it to the other thousand so so rethemed boring euro games that already exist and refuel the cycle of yet another new game to buy
in a years time no one will be talking about this game, just like all the others of its ilk

Jesse's well known, liked, respected and writes articles that on the whole are well done, well structured and well produced. HE is the guy who should be telling people when a game sucks, and not Joe & Janice "we get a few free games and we like everything and we'll explain why in 45 seconds".


edit: and just to be clear, when I talk about "damage to the hobby" I mean only the current obsession with quality output and its effect on future development of games and ideas. At the end of the day, the wheel will keep turning, these games will keep coming out, people will keep buying them, playing them once (at most) and moving on. If the market collapses it will be economics driving it, not a sudden realisation that too many of us are buying things that serve no real purpose. So if you're going to set yourself up as a "voice of experience", then the onus is on you, not on the obviously amateur guys to be a bit more direct.

Compare and contrast this review (and similar ones of The Manhattan Project for example), with the stuff that Chris writes on illuminating blogspot. He doesn't pussy around trying just to describe games in a clever way but at the same time failing to be brutally honest about the complete lack of innovation and merit, he calls a spade a spade at the same time as writing in a more "elevated" way. A lot of this new wave stuff just sounds like the same stuff that people like Greg Schloesser and Tom Vasel write, every game is good, everythings a solid 7 out of 10. Meh, meh, meh. All this is, is more "Meh" with a few more fancy buzzwords. Sorry, that's just how I see it. Too much waffling for the sake of sounding clever about too many games that aren't (yet) worth writing about, and far too much pulling of punches when it comes to games that are just "meh", probably because you got a free advance review copy.

bah humbug

SuperflyTNT wrote: I was pointed toward a podcast where the podcaster said, in short, that if he doesn't like a game that he was asked to review by a publisher, he contacts publishers and asks if they want to have a negative review published.

Is it just me, or is that the dog asking the fox if he should bark or not when the fox is about to raid the henhouse? I mean, isn't it the whole point of reviewing to...I dunno...review a game for what it is? Alert people to the pros and cons?

I'm not being hyperbolic (for once), I'm serious.

dicehateme.com/2012/07/the-state-of-game...culling-and-critics/

28:10 or so.

I'm surprised there is much discussion about this. Once this alleged reviewer crossed the line and asked a publisher if it would be okay to do a negative review, he became a shill. A shill who doesn't even have enough self-respect to at least get paid cash. To hell with him.

ldsdbomber wrote: My thesis is that this kind of review, here by our very own Jesse Dean
boardgamegeek.com/thread/829911/getting-in-on-the-ground-floor

... it's there if you dig enough, this game sucks, and is pointless, and he knows it, but hey, lets add it to the other thousand so so rethemed boring euro games that already exist and refuel the cycle of yet another new game to buy
in a years time no one will be talking about this game, just like all the others of its ilk...

...every game is good, everythings a solid 7 out of 10....

bah humbug

This right here is a problem with people's perceptions of reviews in gaming culture (board and video games) as I think both industries have evolved to the point where most games aren't actually bad. People recognize enough about game design and mechanics to not design a truly terrible game but since gamers have been playing games for so long good isn't good enough. The game you linked to sounds like an utterly generic worker placement game. Because we have seen Caylus, Stone Age, Lords of Waterdeep, The Manhattan Project, etc. come and go Ground Floor fails to stand out from the crowd. I highly doubt it's an unenjoyable experience but it's definitely not novel nor innovative. If it had been the second worker placement game ever made I'm sure we'd all be hearing much more positive press.

That's why one has to read reviews critically much as you have done here. Read between the lines to see what's really being said about a game. The reviewer is not being disingenuous by saying the game is good. It is technically a fine game. Your experience (and the author himself) is telling you that it's not a particularly great game.

As for asking a publisher permission to review? I understand how you want to have a cordial relationship with publishers but that's going a bit too far. Giving them a heads up might be appropriate but you should publish what you truly feel about a game or stick to only reviewing games you like. If the relationship is more important to you than speaking out then feel free to not publish anything at all on games you don't like but don't ask permission, that shows a lack of respect to both yourself and your audience.

I once wrote a lengthy and somewhat negative review of a new boardgame here at F:AT, even though the game designer is a friend of mine. I didn't tell him that I was going to do the review, or tell him about it afterwards, I just did it. He saw the review and really appreciated the feedback. The next time that he got together with some people to playtest a couple of his game designs, he invited me to participate. He moved away not long after that, but I would like to think that he would have continued to recruit me for playtesting sessions.