Cult Of The Kickstarter

Is the cult of the new is dead? I know a few years ago it seemed like people were more excited to play prototypes than new games even. So perhaps the cult of the new had already passed and its just becoming more apparent now. A lot of kickstarter related threads pop up here these days so I imagine even more so on other sites. There was always p500 stuff where you could pre-order to get a game made, but its on a whole new level now. How long until companies only release games via crowdfunding? Sounds like a sweet deal for the companies to be counting their profits beforehand, but I suspect a lot of gems will go unpublished. People won't always have the money during funding for all the competing games where otherwise they may have bought them after publication months apart. What do you all think? How will kickstarter affect the hobby in the future? Or has it already made all the impact its going to?

I guess companies have found a golden goose in kickstarter... apparently no shortage of ravenous geeks willing to throw money continually at the next new thing, celebrating small perks and stretch goals. playing a guessing game whether it'll be crap or shit. and occasionally ok or good. The damage is done - there is no going back.

oN principle companies should put their own money on the line. Myself I was immune to KS and now I am allergic to the very word kickstarter, the same way I am allergic to people in their bgg profiles bragging about how they brought 35 games back from Essen. Sure i have bought a lot of games but...

I'm sure some good games have come out of KS but I miss the days when there was less 'noise' all the time about some game and less hype. I mean, there was hype, but it took FfG months to get stuff out for example and there were delays. With KS, it seems like something effin new is announced everyday. Quick, get on board!!!!! Kickstarter is american idol- these arent real musicians like most of them aren't real designers. I want respected firms with tried and tested teams putting out games whether it is Zman, Asmodee, FFg or whoever. If they start going down the crowdfunding road too, I am seriously done with this hobby and will find a better way to pass my time, something free, like sex

Kickstarter. kick in the balls, then in the teeth.

It allows the consumer to feel like they're part of something, as opposed to a simple transaction.

Also, how do you get sex for free?

I would never kickstart a new game, but I'm JUMPING on the Eminent DOmain expansion kickstarter.

THe thing to take away from this is, I already know I like the game, I'm going to get the expansion anyway, might as well pay now and reap the promo and free add-on benefits.

As part of an ongoing conversation about the MMP Kickstarter for Lincoln's War, I just sent a long private message to Sag on my experience (all generally very positive) with Lock & Load's pre-pay pre-order with bonuses system. Basically, they kickstarted Warparty, learned all they could from the experience and then set up a system to do the same thing on their own website for future products. LnL isn't going this route for 100% of their new releases, but it appears to be working pretty well for them.

There has been *much* bitching on CSW when Mark Walker (Mr. LnL Games) made it clear that limited rewards were just that. If you want them, buy into that pricing tier. It's supposed to be an incentive for folks for pay more but it surely will lose its value if they start making it widely available (like, e.g., why I'll never back a Queen Games project now that it's become abundantly clear that whatever "reward" you find on KS will later be a "promo" made available for sale through BGG. A discounted copy from Coolstuff along with BGG's rapacious "postage" fees can still work out to be cheaper than just backing the project on Kickstarter. The CSW crowd just couldn't seem to wrap their heads around the fact that they would be denied the opportunity to supplement their online discounter-sourced copy with with reward tier bonus campaign/die-cut counters in some future issue of the house magazine (Line of Fire). For LnL, even someone backing 1 copy at the lowest tiers [which usually amounts to a bit below MSRP like regular ol' preorders] cuts out the massive discounts they have to give distributors. That's real money in their pockets; somebody buying in at $200 to get a couple of copies and that extremely limited reward (say 1 of only 10 copies of a bonus campaign with diecut counters) is a *huge* pile of money in their pocket and they don't want to alienate that guy from backing future projects at a similar level.

But the question your post raises for me is, how will a "gem" go unpublished? Right now, if anything, KS is proving that plenty of pretty marginal games can get funded and published. You appear to be right that the Cult of the New has been replaced by the Cult of the New-and-Prepaid, but the impulse is mostly the same to my eyes. I've seen far fewer boardgame projects *fail* to make their goals that I would have thought possible. I mean--how many more Werewolf, Bohnanza, and Slap [or whatever that Knizia speed card game is called] clones do you actually need? Kickstarter seems to be loaded with both those and dice games [all of which I find to be fun on the iPad and dreary crap in person. If I'm rolling dice, I want the result to mean I'm sending little plastic people, critters, and/or cardboard squares to their untimely demise. Regardless of whether it's modeled on Airships or Elder Signs, those games just aren't for me.]

Miniatures-focused games get a lot of attention on KS, but they seem to be kind of a different animal because they attract multiple, vastly different audiences. Some folks buy into those games just to get the billion models and don't give a damn about the game at all. Others are buying for the boardgame and the minis are secondary. CoolMiniorNot seems to have tapped into this pretty well by offering a billion different options that you can add or ignore depending on personal impulse.

scissors wrote: I want respected firms with tried and tested teams putting out games

A lot of respected firms have been using Kickstarter's fundamental concept for years. Kickstarter added significant value by changing the rules -- a firm deadline that puts both sides of the transaction on notice and a culture where spicing things up with interesting purchase options is rewarded. Other than that it's essentially a pre-order concept that respected game companies have been using for years.

Those differences aren't minor. Kickstarter is fun. P500 is really really un-fun. In fact it's kind of a drag. So I don't mean this as a dig at KS because they fixed it. They found a way to make pre-order exciting.

But as Dogmatix said above, there still needs to be a compelling reason to purchase from KS instead of in the traditional market after printing. Internet discounters don't provide value in a Kickstarter equation, and KS makes it pretty easy for the publisher to put them to the knife. Value-added bennies that only come from purchasing directly from the publisher . . . the traditional delivery chain is at a very serious risk here. It's not serving a much of a purpose for the publishers anymore, and frankly a bigger yield per unit (i.e., more of the purchase price going to the publisher instead of the distributor and retailer) makes smaller, more risky runs more likely to reach break-even. I keep playing out the options and that's what I come back to. There are significant information channels on the Internet serving the consumer and the publisher at little or no charge (and Kickstarter just added a dose of methamphetamines to that) so the remainder of the delivery chain appears to serve no practical purpose and collapses in on itself at some point in the future. As much as Internet retailers have been brutal to brick and mortars, I think Kickstarter is doing the same to Internet retailers. They can complain, but fundamentally KS puts a lot of trump cards in the publisher's hands -- KickStarter IS the de facto online discounter that gets the product firstest and bestest, and quite possibly we'll soon see onliest.

S.

i wonder whether this wave will subside. It seems that companies are moving in on the KS system, will they crowd out the lone start up? and if they do, will KS loose its appeal to the masses?

People like it because they are apart of something new and exclusive, but this only works if its presented that way and its easy for a lone or small group to do that. But if days of wonder et al adopt it as standard, consumers after a few years may wake up and realise they are just prepaying what they got in the stores only a few years ago.

Kickstarter might go away (or more likely become less central) but I think the concept is here to stay. That bell ain't getting unrung anytime soon.

S.

fair enough Sag about the firms using kickstarter and one has to respect that the model appears to be working - certainly for the companies and I guess for kickstarter backers too.

As a consumer, and I realise that I am in an absolute minority, if there was ever a chance I was going to use KS it was in the beginning, when Alien Frontiers first splashed-down.... now the sheer saturation of KS projects makes me tune out right away. I just cant get excited about every or any new KS project with !!!!!! exclamation points that they trot out. Seriously, every next KS seems to be THE BEST GAME EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD - don't miss it!!!

But no matter how they dress it up, it is still a PIG IN A POKE.

Some of the games to come out of KS appear to be decidedly mediocre - or have their detractors. why would I ever risk my money on something and worry whether in the end it will see the light of day? viz Up Front or rather Pay Up Front. If it's not an investment, why should I invest? Was D-Day dice so goddamn fantastic that it was worth plonking my money down 'in advance'?

I guess companies jumping onto KS will have the task of professionalising the process more but I'll still wait until the game hits the stores and has reviews behind it and has proven it is worth it. I could care less how the title gets to market and I'll buy it only after it gets there. I won't assume the risk.

What would chess look like if they kickstarted it today? Now with extra pawns!!!

scissors wrote: But no matter how they dress it up, it is still a PIG IN A POKE.

Now you're starting to sound like a 48 year old man.

"Pig in a Poke" was the business model for 100% of all games up until about 1994. You read the back of the box and took a flyer on the purchase. And I'll agree with you, there aren't a lot of compelling logical reasons to not wait to purchase games in the aftermarket.

Except one: Adventure. "Joel, let me tell you something. Every now and then, say 'What the fuck.' 'What the fuck' gives you freedom."

Adventure is a tried and true business model.

S.

. . . and for the record, all of those stretch goals and extra pawns will be available in the aftermarket someday too.

S.

The first KS I ever backed was the Reaper one. I mean, what other value has ever even come remotely close? 100$ for 150+ miniatures? And nice ones? NOBODY has ever put out such a utterly underpriced package. I mean, I've spent a couple thousand dollars on miniatures in my lifetime and I'm not entirely sure that I didn't nearly double my collection.

The cult-of-the-new still exists. I have friends that call me from out of state (and sometimes overseas) to discuss new games and brag that they're onto the newest thing. Like T'Ptonkin or whatever...jeeez I must've fielded five calls when it released.

The cult-of-the-new is simply a subset of the cult-of-the-new, the Cult-Of-The-Hope. Emperor's New Clothes showed us in a very concise way just how important it is to those in our hobby to be on the bleeding edge of new games, and Kickstarter has simply red-shifted the timeline from "I AM THE BEST GEEK EVER - I JUST GOT THE LATEST GAME!" to "I AM THE BESTESTER GEEK AVVVAR - I JUST BACKED A GAME THAT MAY NEVER EVEN BECOME A PRODUCT!"

Regarding companies, like many of us said many moons ago, There was no hope that the big players would not eventually migrate to the KS platform. I mean, you get a demand gauge, preorders, and fronted money all in the same fell swoop. It's a boon for these companies, and it shifts risk. I mean, if I could find a way to Kickstart something at my job, be damned sure I would be all over it like white on rice.

Will it kill the distribution channel as it exists? No. Distributors are going to have to ask for higher margins now since the "first wave" of buyers has shifted to direct sales, and both retail and, by extension, distribution are now one step further from the customer.

I'm not entirely sure that when KS gets big enough, or if it becomes the "standard model for design development funding", that distribution will not start telling game houses that use KS that they will no longer carry their products. I think it's a bit of cutting your nose off to spite your face, but I've seen that in my industry when distribution feels like they're being cut out of the profit loop by direct sales.

I could go on and on about how I think it's going to end up that companies will start having higher KS prices than retail in order to keep the distributors happy, using the "you got it here first" vibe as a premium to retain backers, but it's Easter and I went to bed at 2AM.

I'm souring on KS. Partly because I am cutting back ALL game consumption and partly because I have 5 games on KS with only 1 in my hand. The "delays" of a KS game, even when made by "big" companies like Steve Jackson games, are getting to me. For these big companies, put the game on KS when it is done and ready to go to the printer, not when you are still writing rules and designing units. On the plus side I'm probably gonna get a bunch of cool games at some point, the downside is I have hundreds of dollars tied up in a game I may not even care about when it does come (AIYP, Up Front). The KS window is too narrow, IMHO, is too susceptible to hype, and given that amazon takes what, 10%, is it really even a deal for the publisher?

I'm a much bigger fan of GMT's p500 system. The games are usually previewed well in advance, lots of commentary is out, and you don't pay till it ships so while a game may languish for a year before release, your money doesn't.

But ultimately I think it depends on the game. MOST games are crap, whether released traditionally or on KS.

jason10mm wrote: I'm souring on KS. Partly because I am cutting back ALL game consumption and partly because I have 5 games on KS with only 1 in my hand. The "delays" of a KS game, even when made by "big" companies like Steve Jackson games, are getting to me. For these big companies, put the game on KS when it is done and ready to go to the printer, not when you are still writing rules and designing units. On the plus side I'm probably gonna get a bunch of cool games at some point, the downside is I have hundreds of dollars tied up in a game I may not even care about when it does come (AIYP, Up Front). The KS window is too narrow, IMHO, is too susceptible to hype, and given that amazon takes what, 10%, is it really even a deal for the publisher?

I'm a much bigger fan of GMT's p500 system. The games are usually previewed well in advance, lots of commentary is out, and you don't pay till it ships so while a game may languish for a year before release, your money doesn't.

But ultimately I think it depends on the game. MOST games are crap, whether released traditionally or on KS.

SJG is staying true to form, though. They've never been known for their ability to hit deadlines, so there was no question they were never going to hit their original deadline. Steve Jackson spent the previous 5 years saying no one would ever buy a $100 version of Ogre; they were utterly convinced of that "fact." They were so unbelievably unprepared to be proved wrong that they then went around the bend trying to maximize the game. (My only aggravation there is the biggest hold-up appears to be the production of the plastic insert to hold the constructed Ogre figures...which I'll almost certainly throw out within 5 minutes of opening the box. I truly hate every last person who pushed for a custom-designed box insert as this particular problem was perfectly predictable.)

I've backed 20 game projects and received between a third and half or so to date (not meaning to get into an Internet Dick Measuring Contest; just laying out my own history), including those from "lone guy who never did this shit before publishing Games" (Gunship: First Strike--and this one does looks like fun. I backed it mostly just because the designer lives close by and I like supporting local projects wherever possible. He also got caught up in the frenzy over-promised, so had to do a lot of on-the-fly adjustments), "Known Designer Who Never Published Shit Before Games" (Jason Maxwell's stuff--and this is the category that scares me the most actually as I always suspect the Ambitious Designer as knowing just enough to be very dangerous and completely fuck things up), and then some "professional" shops like Epic Collins, CMoN and Mantic. If I wasn't so unbelievably lazy, I could probably take my 2nd copy of Zombicide (picked up for a friend who then backed out on it) and recoup most of the money spent on all the other projects save for a Mantic project that I dumped a bunch of cash into for a titanic pile of minis I can use in multiple games.

And, yes, even if they lose 10% in fees, it *can* be a huge deal for the publishers because their sales bypass distribution. The distributors force publishers to sell games to them at upwards of 60% off MSRP. YOU might pay $80 at your local shop for that copy of, say, Mansions of Madness, but FFG had to sell that copy for ~$40 to the distributor, who then sold it on to your shop for $60, who is selling it to you for $80.

Every sale directly through KS is more or less direct to the publisher's pocket. The economics of the model can be staggeringly different for publishers if they handle it right.

I made up those figures for FFG--and I'm sure as a behemoth in this tiny, tiny industry, they have one of the better distribution deals. However, for the smaller publishers, they need the distributors to get the game "out there" into the world, but it costs them a fortune to participate. EVERY publisher would much prefer to have you buy direct from them in some fashion. They can't, however, reduce their prices for direct sales below a certain threshold (which generally remains *above* what the online discounters charge consumers) without getting absolutely *punished* by their distributors. If they get cut-off there, in the days prior to Kickstarter, most publishers would have evaporated overnight.

If you want a really good look into the world of small publishers, distribution, and sales, head over to Grindhouse Games (the folks who did Incursion) and read Grindhouse Jim's blog archive. He had a string of truly great articles (which may have also been copied or expanded on this site, too--I forget the whole chain of events now) that went deep enough into the economics of all this that it should be absolutely mandatory reading for anyone who thinks they want to self-publish a game. It should also be required reading for everyone on any website who pisses and moans about the mostly standard (and escalating) price-points across our shared hobby.

On that note, I've been curious as to why Grindhouse hasn't staked a position on Kickstarter yet as I suspect they'd be be perfect candidates. Minis games with cool new sculpts seem to generate lots of interest and their games have a track record of Not Sucking already in place. I guess Grindhouse has just kind of faded away, which is too freakin' bad.

@Pete: Distributors can ask for higher margins all they like, but publishers can and have been selling direct to retailers through separate pledge levels on their projects. Guys with extensive experience at both ends of the chain like Flying Buffalo's Rick Loomis seem to have figured it out just fine. Brick & Mortar stores (as can the online retailers, but they can't discount the fuck out of things, so I doubt most would bother) can circumvent distribution altogether on the initial release anyway. They're one step CLOSER to, not further from, the consumer. In looking at the prices offered, it appears that they're paying roughly what they've always paid, so it's neither here nor there margin-wise for retailers. However, they DO get to capitalize on the "get it first" hype as they'll get their copies before the "regular retail" copies hit distribution. They *may* also get the full run of bonus items as part of their copies, which distribution generally doesn't. (I've seen projects that go both ways so far; there doesn't seem to be a settled standard practice.)

This also allows publishers to opt to expand the print run to cover larger but lower-margin distribution sales and just count distributors' highly discounted copies as mostly profit. The distributor now takes a much higher risk that the copies THEY received are going to sit because of the (potentially) large number of direct sales to both retail and consumer the publisher already has in-hand.

At least one distributor recognized early on what a clusterfuck this whole thing could be for them--and JUST for them--with the Ogre reprint. One company--Alliance?--bought one of SJG's "design and sell it yourself" countersheet reward tiers for the Ogre reprint. They recognized that guys like me could be buying 2 or 3 copies directly through SJG, so why would I bother with a distribution copy? Nothing has been announced, but I'm positive that this counter sheet will only be available with copies that came through that distribution shop. Dunno how SJG products get distributed, so it's possible that some retailers will get it and others won't (which likely will cause some wailing and gnashing of teeth from gamers eventually). So far that's the only situation I've noticed where a distributor recognized and took action to protect their own interest by *participating* in the Kickstarter process in some fashion. It's also one of the few I've seen where they *could* do so. Publishers and retailers can actually freeze them out if they work the project the right way. Distributors can get their own back with a 2nd print run, but publishers are more interested in selling every last copy of the first run. A 2nd run isn't as common for an awful lot of titles as people think (Hell, just ask MMP how long it took them to move the last copy of the Yanks (US Army) module for ASL. I think the last copy of Avalon Hill's original run finally sold 2 years ago. That would be, what, 25 years for a game system that its current publisher treats as an "always sells no matter what" product?)

The problem with Kickstarter is: Why would I want to patronize an artist to make a game, sight-unseen when there are hundreds of games I already know are amazing?

Beucase I can understand some niches, but yet another game where you place workers? No, thanks.