Unholy Trinity - Wargame, Euro, and AT in one?

So what games that don't completely suck do you think qualify as a wargame, a euro, and an Ameritrash game?

Memoir '44 is what immediately comes to mind for me. Its got euro-y mehcanics, a wargame theme, and AT pieces.

Battlelore (for the same reason as Memoir 44)

Commands & Colours: Ancients

Twilight Struggle

Black Barney wrote:

Twilight Struggle

I've never played Twilight Struggle. How is it AT?

The new Shogun? Though it's AT cred comes almost solely from the ridiculousness of the cube tower...

Mad Dog wrote:

Black Barney wrote:

Twilight Struggle

I've never played Twilight Struggle. How is it AT?

I was talking about it today at lunch when my friend asked about it, "is there dice?" I said yes and then he said there must be a big luck element given that there is both dice AND cards (that are shuffled).

Also it is player versus player conflict which is pretty much the standard definition of Ameritrash. The Russians are trying to breed more sheep than the Americans, they're trying to wipe out their existence through political and back-handed channels (since any type of military intervention will end the world)

i also find the theme to be HIGHLY developed. All of a sudden the Soviets are making attempts at creating coups in central America? I'm the American player and I'm wondering why the hell they're doing that? So I start to cause some coups in Central America and increasing influence there. This was in essence a big theme in the Cold War where one side would mimic the movements of the other without knowing why exactly other than their opponent was doing it so they should as well.

Another reason I think it is Ameritrashy is that it is not balanced. The Soviets have an advantage in the same way the Shadow has an advantage in War of the Ring. This is AT for sure.

but you are dipping waaay into wargaming territory there. all the things you mention are staples of wargaming. they have luck, but it can be controlled by other elements (such as placement of nearby units, or in this case influence in nearby countries) well developed themes, and generally assymetric sides.

A Game of Thrones. It's all there, in an unholy hybrid of Euro, AT and wargame. It's definitely about war, but there is resource management along the lines of a Euro. Combat isn't random, but major events each turn are definitely random.

lj1983 wrote:

but you are dipping waaay into wargaming territory there. all the things you mention are staples of wargaming. they have luck, but it can be controlled by other elements (such as placement of nearby units, or in this case influence in nearby countries) well developed themes, and generally assymetric sides.

Yeah, i think in those definitions, AT and wargames share some commonality. But I don't find Twilight Struggle to be a traditional wargame because it is quick-playing and not complex.

But I think the most overwhelming reason why it isn't a wargame:

- there are no combat units or armies. NONE.
- it's a card-driven game

the textbook definition of a wargame is a game that puts military units in direct conflict with one another. This is not that. Also the goal is not to annihalate your opponent.

I'd say it's more of a simulation than a wargame. Conflict simulation.

One thing is certain is that it is highly innovative in how it blends many different styles


to go back to the original post of this thread, I'm starting to think Small World is probably the ultimate mix of wargame, AT and Euro

Twilight Struggle is wargame in the same way the Cold War was a war. Unconventional. Not much shooting. Constant threat of nuclear annihilation.

Galaxy Trucker comes to mind.

Well, if by "war" we could include area control games like Shogun then why not Twilight Imperium 3 or Age of Conan. Both have are control/war aspects to them. Both are seen as AT games because of the high combat, dice, beautiful plastic bits etc... and TI3 has the role selection mechanism and a victory point track. Age has both of those as well. The "fate dice" are essentially role selection randomized and the victory point track with objectives is very Euro. TI3 even has player elimination (not AoC unfortunately).

I like them both a great deal... I love TI3. Awesome unholy trinity.

Aarontu wrote:

Galaxy Trucker comes to mind.

How is Galaxy Trucker a wargame?

Mad Dog wrote:

Aarontu wrote:

Galaxy Trucker comes to mind.

How is Galaxy Trucker a wargame?

Same thing I thought. Sure there is combat with the "Combat Zone" cards but it is not wargame style combat.

It does, as Vlaada is prone to do, mix AT and Euro in an awesome way. He is one of my favorite designers now that I've played Space Alert a couple dozen times.

Are we gonna list every multi-player conquest game (aka, dudes-on-a-map) here?

I propose Here I Stand. France and England for the wargamers, whatever is going on in the northeast for the Eurogamers, and the Ottomans for the ATers.

Twilight Imperium, interstellar war, lots of theme, plastic and dice, some euro mechanisms
War ofthe RIng, epic war, lots of theme, plastic and dice, some euro mechanisms
Age of Conan, epic war, lots of theme, plastic and dice, some euro mechanisms
Conquest of the EMpire, epic war, reasonable amount of theme, lots of plastic and dice, quite a lot of euro mechanisms