Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

MSample: You're dead on with why MMP *shouldn't* do it, but I wonder if that will be enough to prevent them from taking the plunge. The one I'm waiting on to do this is actually L2--I can actually see it making its minimum number because there always seem to be folks who are willing to gamble.

Ultimately it's the "obligated" part where this system will ultimately collapse under its own weight. GMT and MMP don't charge until the game is printed--even if the boat from China is delayed or the game sits in Customs for 4 months, it actually exists and you WILL receive it at some point. Kickstarter, on the other hand, DOES NOT truly obligate the publisher, only the backer. There are already non-boardgame projects with horror stories of non-production after payment and I've *not* (as of yet) seen a lot of recourse for backers to see their money again if the publisher cuts and runs. They can simply keep publishing "updates" periodically and drag things out until the end of time (think HMS/GRD's ongoing saga with the publication of "Total War", the Europa: Fire in the East reboot--if you track their website, the game has been "at the printers" in one way or another since 2009). This is no different than what JKLM did with the 1860 [or 1861] reprint or what L2 Design did with Grand Fleet and the Rommel's War reprint--fortunately, everyone was made whole there, but it could have easily gone the other way and that money was just gone.

I really do believe that it's only a matter of time until a boardgame project goes the same route. At that point, we may actually have a means to measure the impact of BGG, CSW, and F:AT on the boardgame market because the shitstorm it stirs up will undoubtedly be substantial and, IMO, the impact will ripple out across other high profile Kickstarter boardgame projects.

San Il Defanso wrote:

Steve Weeks wrote:

I'm still waiting on the Glory to Rome black box, the one project I've "backed". No sign of that game ever coming out. They were very up front about the delays at first, now there's hardly anything out of those guys. Because they've likely gotten in over their heads either financially or logistically and are treading water, trying to figure out how to appease all the people that loaned them money to do this

That's a shame sorry to hear that. I thought about starting a Kickstarter project to Barnes and Weeks to BGG Con to do a seminar on Ameritrash and discuss the implications of the Great War of 2006.

Make it happen for 2013. I am planning on maybe attending.

Does anyone else think it's madness to even be talking about a $100 version of Ogre? I mean, that's like creating a $100 version of a Summoner Wars base-set.

I'm a huge fan of the Ogre/GEV games and will be buying this--and, if this actually does include the GEV/Shockwave stuff , probably 2 copies at that since I really like to play really big GEV (i.e., "Ogre-free") scenarios and I do have the table space for something this size. The quality of the production is in the same vein as Academy Games' tactical WWII series [the name of which escapes me at the moment] with the 1" counters, which are $75-$85 games. That last $25 is undoubtedly SJG's "nostalgia surtax."

I would Kickstart this at a ridiculous level if it included things like scaled-up maps that came with a couple of the expansions that weren't going to be available for sale a week later through SJG's Warehouse23 store (Shockwave had a map, and I think there were some new ones in a later map pack. I actually have maps from other publishers in my set because the scale was dead on and they were a fun change of pace, so I'm not sure where all these came from. At least one is from Avalanche Press' Winter War.). I'll probably end up "backing" this at the lowest level to buy a couple of sets of dice, but there's no point for the game when I can undoubtedly pick up sets from Coolstuff at a huge discount...

Edit: finishing off the thought about L2...

Dogmatix wrote: The one I'm waiting on to do this is actually L2--I can actually see it making its minimum number because.

I think L2 has so poisoned the well of potential backers he'd have a hard time.

The fact that Ogre will eventually be made available at retail will probably cause some people to hold off and get it via mail order at a discount. Unless of course there are 3000 backers up front.

Well, I'd gladly subscribe, but those yankee rednecks need to get their fucking nose out of their navels and realise the world doesn't end on US coasts before that ever happens.
Seesh... no deliveries outside US... I'm pissed.

Hey now...The $1,977 pledge level will ship anywhere!
Watching this thing is like watching a person with a license to print money. At my count he's got around 675 copies spoken for right now just a day or so in.

Turns out that this box *is* supposed to include GEV/Shockwave, which is considerably more "game" than just the Ogre base set.

ehanuise wrote: Well, I'd gladly subscribe, but those yankee rednecks need to get their fucking nose out of their navels and realise the world doesn't end on US coasts before that ever happens.
Seesh... no deliveries outside US... I'm pissed.

A box that size, regardless of weight, will probably cost a minimum of $40 to *Canada*; I can't imagine international shipping being anything under than $50, and I've found few boardgame folks on Kickstarter that have *any idea* how to minimize international shipping costs. The guy doing Gunship: First Strike has made a real effort at it but it takes a lot of work for anyone who doesn't have a bit of experience with it or some sort of bulk discount. You might want to ping SJG and find out if they've got some sort of international distributor picking up copies though.


Edit: Wow. Scratch my comments about "small producers" and insert "any game company" in its place. I didn't realize Queen Games was now Kickstarting games: www.kickstarter.com/projects/1016374822/...an-temple?ref=thanks

If they're doing this, I wonder how long it will be before FFG decides to go this route.

They're looking into options, but still...

I got customers ordering Dragon Rage at 50 euros + 30 euros shipping to US, and I'm certain some europeans wouldn't mind paying full cost for shipping if only it was even possible.

Of course getting the game available via distribution later is an option, but still... I feel the urge to shout horrible things

Dogmatix wrote: Wow. Scratch my comments about "small producers" and insert "any game company" in its place. I didn't realize Queen Games was now Kickstarting games: www.kickstarter.com/projects/1016374822/...an-temple?ref=thanks

That's because all the eyeballs are on Kickstarter.

I'll tell you what -- BGG could eat Kickstarter's lunch for boardgames simply because they have the concentrated audience. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't do something similar, or sub Kickstarter out in a front-page module.

S.

Dogmatix wrote: Edit: Wow. Scratch my comments about "small producers" and insert "any game company" in its place. I didn't realize Queen Games was now Kickstarting games: www.kickstarter.com/projects/1016374822/...an-temple?ref=thanks

If they're doing this, I wonder how long it will be before FFG decides to go this route.

I don't like it. I'm starting to notice what Barnes was writing about earlier: there's no risk for the publisher when they use Kickstarter. That risk, when you've put your money on the line, is what drives a quality execution. I've Kickstarted seven games, and received three of them. One of the three has some of the worst editing and proofreading I've ever seen. Two of the three are beginning to appear to have been poorly playtested. There are forum posts and articles laying out dominant strategies. Basically they have their own version of the Halifax Hammer. Now the Halifax Hammer is a pretty obvious indication that Kickstarter games aren't the only ones suffering from issues like this, but so far the poor playtesting hit percentage on the games I've received through Kickstarter is pretty damn high.

I have faith in Kickstarter as a platform. Look at Mobile Frame Zero . It's as "indie" as it gets. For $10 I got a rules PDF, which is exactly what I wanted. At higher levels you could get kits to build the models in the PDF, and some people wanted that. It had a $9000 goal. This happened:

At $15,000, the game became Creative Commons, Attribution, Noncommercial, Share-Alike! That means you can upload, download, share, mod, and even publish the game yourself as long as you're not charging for what you've created!

It still funded at over $80000. That's awesome.

SJG and Queen games using Kickstarter: Not awesome.

No international shipping so I guess I don't have to think about whether I want this. And for those of you saying you can get it later from a shop: are there any Kickstarter exclusives? Because the way I read it, any extras and stretch goals are included in all copies.

lfisher wrote:
" It would be hard to resist kickstarting "Up Front""
God that's an awful pun. . . Which of course is what makes it so funny!

Notahandle wrote: No international shipping so I guess I don't have to think about whether I want this. And for those of you saying you can get it later from a shop: are there any Kickstarter exclusives? Because the way I read it, any extras and stretch goals are included in all copies.

lfisher wrote:
" It would be hard to resist kickstarting "Up Front""
God that's an awful pun. . . Which of course is what makes it so funny!

Only kickstarter exclusive is going to be the T-shirt as far as I can figure and maybe the lapel pins. The extra dice I suspect will be available through Warehouse 23 after release.

The only concern I would have is if they only run the 3,000 copies they were talking about and the bulk of them get bought through kickstarter. I can *absolutely* see SJG stiffing the distribution chain in favor of selling direct through Warehouse23 [with its substantially higher margins] if he only has 500 copies left after Kickstarter is taken care of. I'm less concerned about the discounted cost through the distributors, though that's certainly a plus at this pricepoint; more of an issue of general availability at all and, frankly, the likelihood that SJG would actually *up* the price on the "limited remaining quanitity" for stuff selling through Warehouse23.

ehanuise wrote: I got customers ordering Dragon Rage at 50 euros + 30 euros shipping to US...

Yea, I was one of 'em. I should have looked into playing distributor for some local geeks and picked up multiple copies as 1-off purchases from you and Fifth Column games (Where There Is Discord and Lost Battles) involved shipping costs that did verge on breathtaking. I felt positively Australian (at least before their dollar hit the parity mark with the greenback) buying those games