Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

Schweig! wrote: Kickstarter's success doesn't surprise me at all. I'm just pissed I didn't think of it first... In essence it is a post-capitalism method of producing goods and all that was required is getting enough people with shared interest together from around the world. The internet does that. It's entirely possible that more and more non-essential items will be produced that way and I don't blame established publishers for jumping on the bandwagon, even though bigger companies should have the resources to simply develop their own Kickstarter-type market research tool. After a few catastrophic failures I guess we'll see safer methods of funding. What the boardgame Kickstarter programs have in common is that they actually abuse the system - Kickstarter initially wasn't meant to provide the funder with a product of actual worth, only a token of support. But, as I said, the way Kickstarter has developed isn't surprising, and maybe in the future all production of non-essential goods could be handled that way - it would certainly be more democratic than all market systems that ever existed.

I was surprised more people aren't coat riding Kick Starter all the way to their OLGS to at least get the game at a discount if not the chance to wait for the game to be reviewed. But after being in the hobby for a little over a year now I've realized that many (most?) gamers are spendthrifts. At any rate I'm with you, I'm pissed i didn't think of Kick Starter first.

El Cuajinais wrote: This thread has reinforced my view that a good portion of hobby gamers are super-consumers. Their tastes may be niche compared to the general population, but their insatiable hunger for the new products is probably in the same class as the “trendy” women who collect purses and shoes.

Not sure you've ever priced those "trendy" shoes or purses since you could buy a pro-painted 5,000 point Warhammer 40K army for mid-level entries in that market. But, ultimately, I ask this: So what?

Some would argue that the portion of the hobby that's active on the web is not indicative of the hobby on the whole. I'm not so sure about that; when I look at the portion of my shelf dedicated just to Games Workshop, TSR, SPI, and Avalon Hill--the stuff from my mid-80s highschool years that I still have--I'd say it's always been a collector's hobby. The rise of the German Family Game and especially the CCG expanded the demographic but it's never been cheap nor have the bulk of its participants been satisfied with a single entry [how many different RPGs did most people play over the years? I count a dozen in my life and we were primarily wargamers. Most people who really got into that part of the hobby number can count the systems they bought into by the gross].

You don't get into this family of hobbies (including wargaming, minis, and CCGs) without a healthy amount of disposable income. Few people (that I've met, anyway) that self-identify as "gamers" are *not* collectors of some stripe--if not games, then comic books, music, movies, or some other segment of pop culture. If you had a pull-bin at your local comic book shop, buy new release videogames and movies or raid the iTunes store regularly--or drink $80/bottle whisky or $6/bottle beer [Southern Tier in my case, but I've seen enough posts around here to know we've got some serious beer/liquor snobs, which is just another sort of "collector", among some of our most "anti-megaconsumer" members, which is kind of laughable--you're just a pop-culture mega-consumer of one stripe or another since all that shit has absolutely no value or use beyond simple entertainment value.

EDIT: To get this a bit back on track, new update came today for the Ogre Kickstarter deal. Note they've *already* hit the $100k mark [which I hope also points out to ol' SJ that there really WAS pent-up demand for this product and perhaps Munchkin could have taken a back-seat for just a little bit. I do now wonder if there will be some sort of massive retro Car Wars product down the road]. Kickstarter-exclusive counters will likely drive this even further--that is the thing that pushed me into backing this for 1 set. I'm still on the fence if I want to pick up my 2nd set through KS or through an online discounter as, like Space Hulk, I really doubt we'll see any expansion material for this set down the road [beyond maybe some unmounted maps at this scale through Warehouse23]:

For $75K, we promised to add a Kickstarter exclusive counter sheet. We’re preparing an online survey to let you tell us what to put on that sheet.

For $90K, we promised four new scenarios written by Steve Jackson. He’s working on them now!

For $100K, we promised to add the Ogre blueprint poster to every copy. We will. And the box is so big, we won't even have to fold the poster.

We also promised to announce a new stretch goal. Since you are overperforming for us, we’ll overperform for you. Here are TWO new stretch goals:

$110K - We’ll post outlines for a 3-D Command Post, Laser, and Laser Tower, so your custom Ogres can have custom targets.
$130K - Four more scenarios by Steve will be posted in December. Steve is going to be busy writing, and we are all going to have some playtesting to do . .

I know of watch collectors (who I suppose could be considered mega consumers) who hunt for bargains and deals on expensive watches. And I know of watch collectors who buy whatever's hot at whatever price once it's available. There are watch collectors who buy only what they know they will wear and collectors who buy because they want to fill their watch box and move on to the next. It's a mindset, the amount of disposable income you have has little to do with it.

Note they've *already* hit the $100k mark, which I hope also points out to ol' SJ that there really WAS pent-up demand for this product and perhaps Munchkin could have taken a back-seat for just a little bit.

This is an important point here, and one that could be really beneficial to consumers/collectors/fans down the road.

Once SJG gets over the sheer trauma of being such an unprofessional company, one would hope that these Ogre figures would really get them thinking. A central criticism of SJG in the recent past is just how blinded they've become by Munchkin, and how all other potential projects, large or small, were always pushed to the side. Well, there couldn't possibly be a clearer indication that there's some demand out there for non-Munchkin items. Next up: how about some Car Wars stuff? Maybe finally release Triplanetary (I'm assumming SJG still owns the rights)? A DVD of the complete Space Gamer run? They could even dip into their more recent catalogue for things like new Frag maps/cards, updated dinos for Dino Hunt, etc. SJG has been around since 1980 and has an extensive catalogue; the possibilities are virtually without limit.

Hell, waking SJG up to the fact that there's more to life than Munchkin is worth some sort of KS pledge all by itself.

+++++

Late add: How could I forget? I also hope this clues SJG into the fact that Ogre, specifically, would be a runaway hit on iOS.

TheDukester wrote: Late add: How could I forget? I also hope this clues SJG into the fact that Ogre, specifically, would be a runaway hit on iOS.

Not just Ogre, but the full Ogre/GEV family--and I suspect he could sell them as 3 or 4 separate apps to maximize the revenue stream. The rules are still simple enough (attack, defend, move, terrain modifiers) that a basic AI wouldn't need to be much more than a basic number-cruncher [every old CRT-based wargame should be on the damn iOS IMO]. Hell, I think a ton of the old MicroBox games they had [though KungFu 2100 and Raid on Iran wouldn't exactly be "runaways"] would be great as would a "we do the book-keeping for you" string of Car Wars-related apps, particularly a "digital garage" kind of thing that rule-enforces for car building.

I am NOT backing Ogre.

I will play my old version.

I remember playing Ogre on my Apple IIc. I think Ogre on iOS would be the only way I'd play it nowadays. The overexpensive board game would just sit collecting dust.

Price for content, I think Ogre is a good one. $100 for 6kg of cardboard. FFG's stuff is $60 for 3kg of cardboard (Android). And if I have the money, I'd get Ogre instead of Eclipse. Every time.

On using KS? Anyone following the 6th ed. should have known that this is sort of SJ's pet project. It's been repeatedly said that this is a risky move. They don't KS munchkin. Okay, may be not yet...

I think Kickstarting is generally fine, with the usual caveat emptors in place.

For Ogre and other long-OOP games, KSing makes far more sense as a way to judge market interest -- geeks are notorious for waxing nostalgic over decades-old product and swearing up and down that if only they could buy XYZ again, they so totally would. Then by the time it comes out they've moved on to Bronies or whatever other obsession du jour they have. So what smart company wouldn't take advantage of it?

There's been talk of professionalism and so on, implying that "real" companies would knuckle down and do market research instead of tepidly testing the waters, but professionalism is, to a great extent, doing what keeps your business running long term. Anyone who hasn't read SJG's "Stakeholders' Report" should, if you're interested in the actual nuts and bolts of the hobby game industry. SJ is not an idiot; the history of the industry is littered with countless companies whereas he has supplied about two dozen jobs to people for three decades.

One positive change I'd make at KS though is to give 50% of the money when the KS closes, and the rest when the product ships. That would at least tweak the incentive a little more towards getting the goods in the hands of your supporters. That said, I've had no issues with KS and have supported a fair amount of gaming stuff -- although to be fair, most of that is RPGs where the manufacturing is less challenging.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Ogre and I'm glad SJG is bringing it back in a way that lets them (a) meet demand and (b) not get hosed with a warehouse full of unmovable product. Win-win.

dysjunct wrote: One positive change I'd make at KS though is to give 50% of the money when the KS closes, and the rest when the product ships.

What about non-companies that can't bankroll the other 50%?